A Sword Without a Hilt: A Song of Ice and Fire/D&D 3.5 Crossover
- Thread starter DragonParadox
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- a song of ice and fire a sword without a hilt d&d 3.5 dungeons & dragons 100% high octane dragon fuel ave corvidae battle action dragon diplomacy best sister bureaucromancy delicious soul-stuff dragon dreams come true dragon ta'veren greatest uncle hubris is a coward's word in defiance of gods and men mammon's folly mutually assured mage's disjunction qm murderhobo top tier coatl
Goldfish
Friendly Spider-Fish Abomination
- Location
- Formerly of the Far Realm
Appropriately paranoid, and with the same main grouping I would have selected. One possible change to the plan could be to side Plane Shift charms instead of Teleport charms. Rather than setting up local safe houses, which could be discovered by happenstance or enemy competence, this would allow everyone who needs to evacuate to transport themselves directly to the new arrivals waypoint in Armun Kelisk. It has the advantage of not splitting people up, as well as a friendly destination with inhabitants who are guaranteed enemies of anyone who might be able to pursue our people.
[X] Crake
Crake
I AM THE STORM THAT IS APPROACHING
- Location
- USA
Adequate?
Edit: I forgot that the Waypoint sucked in all people Planeshifting within 500 Miles of both locations, so teleports aren't necessary. Still, they'll be provided to everyone.
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Goldfish
Friendly Spider-Fish Abomination
- Location
- Formerly of the Far Realm
Thanks, dude.
enigma1995
Gentleman Beholder
[X] Crake
- Location
- Who knows?
Azel, thanks for taking the time to type all of this out. I have to admit I think this is one of the best breakdowns of Utilitarianism and how it works or doesn't work I've read. Also man I kinda wish there was a way to somehow unleash you upon Rationalist/Less Wrong forums now. I distinctly remember people making serious "tortuing one person for eternity was better than having a thousand people get a speck of dust in their eye cause numbers game" type arguments there. Okay in a less joking tone, wow for all the thread jokes and banters about being X's boogeyman of the day its quite terrifying what Viserys has turned into when you honestly look at the facts.
But even with that, emotionally/mentally/whatever-ly it's hard for me to think of Viserys with the same disdain or general mental aversion I have for other villains or dictators irl since well, obviously he's a fictional character. Also one who's complete inner thought processes and actions the thread has compelte control over due to the nature of Quests. But also, I suppose I have drunken the cool-aid in that regardless of his selfish/power hungry motivations and the sketchy shit he's pulled and will pull (the Aedon fuckery, the shit we're gonna pull with Brynden, etc), the fact that he has managed to gut slavery in Essos and all the horrible disgusting shit that came with it like "breeding" that would happen in Lys in what, 4 years (?) is so remarkably "Good" to me that I find it hard to really judge the sketchier shit Viserys has done.
And with regards to trying to do a Lucan and/or selflessly helping freed slaves form their own government he was not in charge of, I can't help but think of how much longer and smaller scale that would've been. After all, Lucan hasn't been able inspire people to set up Westerosi universal healthcare. Not to mention slower. How much progress in freeing slaves in Lys and Myr could Viserys had made with the inspiring leader approach? Yeah, I know this leads to inherently pointless discussions about whether X freed slaves with Y fewer magister deaths and much more self rule is worth "more" than 2-10X freed slaves with more death and Viserys in charge. But part of me does feel as though the inspiring leader types would be open to "you care more about keeping your hands clean instead of actually saving lifes or making them better," arguements. In fact, I'm pretty sure that Viserys himself has used something like that at least once.
God now, I'm never going to be able to not think of Viserys when watching LotGH and comparing Yang with Lohengram.
Final note, but whew lad at the whole "mortals giving God grace" thing with Lucan. Did you hear every Christian in a million mile radius simultaneously giving you the stinkeye when you typed that out? Or vauge cries of ghosts yelling Deus Vult in your ear? Pretty much every Christian I know would have a heart attack at the presumption. (I once had an arguement/discussion with a Christian friend when younger about how I didn't get why Original Sin is a thing and why I would need salvation for something I had absolutely nothing to do with, etc etc and at one point she said trying to be a good person without Grace/God is like trying to pull yourself to heaven by yanking on your own hair.)
Crake
I AM THE STORM THAT IS APPROACHING
- Location
- USA
The key here is not to try to reduce arguments on this subject by citing that Viserys is Good because the side effects of his actions are Good.
Viserys may genuinely hate slavery, he may have thought the incompetent and insane nobility in charge of Essos needed to be removed for their genuinely reprehensible actions, but that was never his main motivation when undertaking the extremes he went through in order to enact those changes. He murdered, deceived and conquered for power, so that he could wield that power and pursue his various motivations, most of them selfish at their core, no matter how many people end up benefiting from them. Viserys is a Great Man, not a Good one. Attempting to act self-righteous when lining your own pockets all the while is just opening yourself up to "take that" monologues from people who are altruistically powerful and equally charismatic, like Lucan.
That isn't really to say Lucan can be considered a net-good either. This is the interesting part about the motives of powerful men. The actions Lucan could take in the pursuit of virtue could end up harming as many people as Viserys sought to help. Or it could end up helping no one, which indirectly harms them because rather than taking action to prevent the predating of other factions, the element which represented "giving people a choice and a chance to climb higher on the moral ladder" might end up being short-sighted considering the timeline that everyone is working under.
Consider this, Lucan doesn't want control and eternal church authority. He is against the controlling and limiting social ladder which currently exists, and maybe even wants to tear it down.
The Others are coming. Baator is working. Daemons are springing up. Deep Ones are embedding themselves wherever they can.
Viserys excises all of those things, but he does it by taking control. We have ideals greater than "mere survival with a entree of total control" which the Father apparently initially charged Lucan with, but that doesn't make them virtuous, it does however make them equally laudable.
Goldfish
Friendly Spider-Fish Abomination
- Location
- Formerly of the Far Realm
Ah, fucknuggets. I forgot again. Okay, gonna work on that tonight and tomorrow morning.
We did craft him a bunch of gear last month, though, so he's fully kitted out.
| Liomond Lashare |
| Anklets of Translocation (Slotless) |
| Bead of Newt Prevention |
| Belt of the Battle Master w/Greater Healing Belt effect & +4 Constitution |
| Boots of the Battle Charger |
| Circlet of the Mind & Body (+4 Intelligence & +4 Strength) |
| Duelist's Gloves (+5 Dexterity, +5 vs Disarms attempts) |
| Earring of Arcane Acuity |
| Extreme Shield (+1) w/Animated (+2) property and Lesser Armor Crystal of Arrow Deflection |
| Gravewatch Pendant w/Amulet of Tears & Protection from Evil effects |
| Greater Ribbon of Disguise |
| Handy Haversack |
| Mind Blank Ring |
| Mithral Breastplate of the Battlelord (+5 Enhancement) +5 Resistance bonus to saves, +4 vs Combat Maneuvers and Lesser Ironward Diamond |
| Muleback Cords (Slotless) |
| Ring of Sustenance (Slotless) |
| Ring of the Wind (1/Day cast Haste at 10th level as a Swift Action) |
| Scabbard of Keen Edges |
| Soulfire Bracers w/Greatreach Bracers & Bracers of Quickstrike effects |
| Valyrian Steel Greatsword (+3 Enhancement) w/Greater Weapon Crystal of True Death |
Crake
I AM THE STORM THAT IS APPROACHING
- Location
- USA
Yeah, might wanna work that out before @DragonParadox has to use him in an encounter.
Is he against the feudal order? Because he seemed properly dismissive of 'mercantilism' the one time we got to discuss his politics. Fixing it sure, making sure it runs the way it is ideally supposed to, but tearing it out seems a bit beyond his ambition. The Seven are the Gods of Feudalism, they'd have to overhaul their porfolios and re-balance their pantheon before they could get rid of it.
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Crake
I AM THE STORM THAT IS APPROACHING
- Location
- USA
I dunno. Thing is, Lucan can't possibly be equally knowledgable about what it actually takes to structure a society nor run a nation. He is not a statesman like Viserys. He is a religious demagogue. Viserys is a demagogue too, but likely to have greater core competencies in Politics, Intrigue and social-climbing than him, because Lucan is a holyman common-born soldier, and Viserys is a fucking Targaryen monarch, with thousands of years backing up his lineage, and a great pedigree. The latter of which I mention because you pretty much have a hard-cap on what kind of social interactions you can invite yourself into under the context you desire.
Talking about social, economic or political reform while not actually being experienced in any of those things will get you side-eyed at best. It also requires you to lean on other skilled individuals, many of which will not be as competent as you, and likely to be opposed to completely tearing down the current order, because it means the deaths of thousands at best.
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The reason Viserys knows these things is because he studied them, because he understands that as someone trying to rule they are his responsibility. Admittedly the ancestral knowledge of dragons does help, but surely the Wisdom of the Father could be accessed if Lucan thought it would be a good idea to know these things?
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Crake
I AM THE STORM THAT IS APPROACHING
- Location
- USA
That factors into it too, but I mention pedigree mostly because it gets your foot in the door. Massively. And it doesn't matter how much your social scores are if your base modifier to a conversation with someone who is diametrically opposed to you is -40 for being a peasant and on top of that, not actually being experienced or trained in any of the things you are trying to change.
- Location
- Australia
People are always going to be impatient for outcomes, that doesn't mean the journey is unappreciated.
I'd have been left wanting more with another heaped handful of chapters.
Something I'd like you to keep in mind is that it's always going to seem like that much more than it is like that.
In battle heavy updates there's only so many "correct" actions to be taken, only so much discussion required to get to that point while tweaking the latest behemoth of a battle plan, and the only other topic people can really discuss is planning for after the conclusion of the fight one way or another.
You aren't just updating round by round, people's discussion is also essential limited to a handful of 6 second periods.
Finally, it was awesome and didn't stop being awesome.
Eh, women take harsher penalties than peasants depending on who you ask. Which Lucan isn't, he had a last name before he joined the Faith. As a probable second or third son who chose the Faith he certainly lacks the training as part of his upbringing, but he could put in the work (read, skill points) now if he so desired.
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Crake
I AM THE STORM THAT IS APPROACHING
- Location
- USA
So as it turns out he isn't a peasant. Fair enough. But obviously a petty noble. It's worth mentioning the likes get about as much respect as Baelish does.
Baelish does kind of go out of his way to earn it. From his background (lord of the shittiest fief in the Vale, descended from a foreign mercenary) to his demonstrated lack of martial prowess and focus on all sort of looked-down-on pursuits.
I'd go so far as to say he cultivates that reputation deliberately, since being underestimated is useful to him.
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Crake
I AM THE STORM THAT IS APPROACHING
- Location
- USA
He does, absolutely, but the veneer of mild disdain is never risen above once you go high up enough on the social ladder in your interactions. This can be magnified in perception if the person is egregiously an eyesore for the hypothetical high lord, like being the Master of Coin and thus in charge of important court functions. Or being a zealot with significant sway in your own church.
True, but you can't exactly disdain a divine chosen who hunts monsters for a living and answers any and all challenges to Trial by Combat with "I'll try not to hurt you too badly" the same way you can a professional whoremonger.
Lucan definitely has social capital to throw around, even if not at the same level as Viserys does now that he's convinced people he's not Satan.
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- Location
- Who knows?
I'm guessing that killing the GC stragglers and anyone remotely connected to them helped the Orange Emperor save face in that he totally played a role in driving the filthy foreign demon cult from his shores! Yes Viserys did 99.99% of the work, yes the stragglers were left alone mostly because we cared more about loot reports and other shit (Thenn evacuation I think?) than rando lv 5 warriors, and yes I know I am probably the first person in this thread to think about the fact the OE managed to save face from this and that the Orange Emperor's face has, and likely will not, never ever remotely crosed Viserys' mind as a reason for anything.
Doesn't matter, face saved.
....
Are you making an Americos. Are we gonna get pissed off not!Aztecs Sunset-Invading us?
[X] Crake.
- Location
- Australia
Seems to our benefit as much as his, staking your Face on the barely mentionable cleanup of our operation that also saved your ass.
Well either you acknowledge the barbarians for the heroes they were, or give us ample fodder for the disillusionment of the Emperor.
God's chosen until he chooses someone else, it'd be a shame if that someone else had proof that your great deeds were not so great and not so yours.
I'm pretty sure that's not how it works. Since he's Emperor and we're barbarians, literally nothing we say can prove that something he says is not true. He'll probably give us some credit so we don't murder him, but don't expect much.
- Location
- Australia
You misunderstand, we are barbarians but Emperor's don't live forever and they don't always pass in old age. To preserve their cultural world view the Emperor is Chosen by God...until he's not.
So a rival non-barbarian might find himself with the information and resources to strip away the shine from Orange while positioning himself as Chosen by God.
A rival proving you claim Favour for the actions of Barbarians?!?
It's not a good look.
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Jack vile Ripper
The swellest guy in Creation.
- Location
- Indonesia
- Pronouns
- He/Him
I can't wait 'till we finally Conquer Yi-Ti.
It might take a hundred years from now, and another several decades tp pacify the whole region under Imperial control.
But damn, do I want Viserys to dress up like a Chinese Emperor for once.
Hmm, what do you think his epithets would be?
Thrice-Blessed Heavenly Sovereign.
Vestige Wrought by Dawn's Light.
Crimson Scales Crowning Glory.
Master of Tree, Snake, and Sea.
Dragon King Beyond the Sea.
Or my favourite thus far...
It might take a hundred years from now, and another several decades tp pacify the whole region under Imperial control.
But damn, do I want Viserys to dress up like a Chinese Emperor for once.
Hmm, what do you think his epithets would be?
Thrice-Blessed Heavenly Sovereign.
Vestige Wrought by Dawn's Light.
Crimson Scales Crowning Glory.
Master of Tree, Snake, and Sea.
Dragon King Beyond the Sea.
Or my favourite thus far...
Scarlet Emperor.