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A Sword Without a Hilt: A Song of Ice and Fire/D&D 3.5 Crossover

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Goldfish said:
Divination magic is so useful.
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Didn't someone have an idea of making divination satellites years ago?
Goldfish said:
I was thinking of creating an enchanted satellite, @Azel, perhaps in the form of a Construct, once we leave the atmosphere and gain a basic IC understanding of orbital mechanics and zero-gravity.

We could give it a high Spot bonus, further augmented by spells like Heightened Awareness and Hawkeye, in order to push its bonus extremely high, and have it linked to a MirrorVision mirror. I'm confident I can find the right combination of spells that would let us zoom in quite close on any location on Planetos. It wouldn't be Scrying, per se, but it would be a powerful intelligence gathering tool nonetheless.
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@Goldfish Given we're at the point where we can outright invent spells, you could probably mesh together a new one that actually allows it to magnify a set location within LoS (which would be basically the entire hemisphere the satellite is pointed toward).

Essentially? Spy satellites. Can't see anything inside structures or underground, but it can observe the entire planet and probably allow us to survey things like weather conditions and troop movements.
 
Goldfish said:
Divination magic is so useful.
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Not for this, since we simply don't have the knowledge to ask the right questions. I mean, we should have at least a basic notion of gravity, but do we have the heliocentric model of the universe yet? We most definitely don't know about the Coriolis effect, or how the atmosphere changes at higher and higher altitude. If we lack the heliocentric model, the Coriolis effect becomes really confusing. Without proper Newtonian gravity, we don't know what an orbit is and can't theoretically predict it's existence, meaning we must kind of stumble on the concept.

Our first flight will probably be Moonsong going straight up with the Moonchaser and then trying to hold position in opposition to the Coriolis effect without really knowing what is even going on. We should get useful atmospheric measurements at least, but a lot of other things will be very puzzling.

The best part is that regular gravity will be in full effect when they don't try to hold position, since it won't be cancelled out by the centripetal force of the orbit. If they do try to hold position though, everything will begin to weigh less and less the higher they go, culminating in weightlessness at geosynchronous orbit. If they go further out while still trying to maintain position, they would even begin to notice that they are pushed away from Planetos instead, which will be even weirder. At the same time, the engines react to local gravity and not the balance of forces that messes with the perceived weight, meaning the handling of the Moonchaser will be utterly disconnected from what everyone is personally perceiving.

This is very much not trivial and nothing we can just divine.
 
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Azel said:
This is very much not trivial and nothing we can just divine.
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Can't they just get up there and then send a message back down telling us what to ask? Their questions would mostly be "why is this happening?" and "how do we get out of this?", but it should be enough to let us make some headway, assuming they don't end up in serious trouble immediately.
 
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Crake said:
Didn't someone have an idea of making divination satellites years ago?

@Goldfish Given we're at the point where we can outright invent spells, you could probably mesh together a new one that actually allows it to magnify a set location within LoS (which would be basically the entire hemisphere the satellite is pointed toward).

Essentially? Spy satellites. Can't see anything inside structures or underground, but it can observe the entire planet and probably allow us to survey things like weather conditions and troop movements.
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I'd probably go with a blend of a purely optical telescope and a fleshforged retina. Should be easier then making a spell that breaks distance rules so extremely and has the added benefit that we can use Fire Eyes and Snowsight to remove the obstacle of cloud covers.
 
Well, we can ask "how the voyage will go" and get a "really weird from a technical standpoint" response?
 
065tdsa said:
Can't they just get up there and then send a message back down telling us what to ask? Their questions would mostly be "why is this happening?" and "how do we get out of this?", but it should be enough to let us make some headway, assuming they don't end up in serious trouble immediately.
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Trying to learn laws of physics from cryptic divination results sounds like a cruel and unusual punishment visited upon scientists in Baator.
 
Azel said:
Trying to learn laws of physics from cryptic divination results sounds like a cruel and unusual punishment visited upon scientists in Baator.
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Indeed, divination is terrible at getting across very specific technical details, not just physical but also magical, otherwise one could ask 'how does a flesh-forge work?' and just brute force the answers. There would be no magical secrets from beings with easy access to divination which is most gods and god-like beings.

Divination magic is a useful investigation tool but it does not allow one to build complex models out of thin air.
 
Vote closed.
Adhoc vote count started by DragonParadox on Apr 24, 2020 at 4:42 PM, finished with 34 posts and 12 votes.
  • [X] Plan Reaching Out
    -[X] Resolve to send a mix of diplomats and unofficial agents to the Red Flower Vale and Ibben. These developments present a chance to expand your borders or at least your sphere of influence.
    -[X] Have the captain who claims to have reached Asshai divined throughly to check if his claims are true.
    -[X] Moar rumours!
    [X] More reports on the doings of the last month (Rumor post)
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I am pretty suspicious that the guy who claims he went to Asshai is either a pawn of Deep Ones or the Bloodstone Emperor.
 
Azel said:
Not for this, since we simply don't have the knowledge to ask the right questions. I mean, we should have at least a basic notion of gravity, but do we have the heliocentric model of the universe yet? We most definitely don't know about the Coriolis effect, or how the atmosphere changes at higher and higher altitude. If we lack the heliocentric model, the Coriolis effect becomes really confusing. Without proper Newtonian gravity, we don't know what an orbit is and can't theoretically predict it's existence, meaning we must kind of stumble on the concept.

Our first flight will probably be Moonsong going straight up with the Moonchaser and then trying to hold position in opposition to the Coriolis effect without really knowing what is even going on. We should get useful atmospheric measurements at least, but a lot of other things will be very puzzling.

The best part is that regular gravity will be in full effect when they don't try to hold position, since it won't be cancelled out by the centripetal force of the orbit. If they do try to hold position though, everything will begin to weigh less and less the higher they go, culminating in weightlessness at geosynchronous orbit. If they go further out while still trying to maintain position, they would even begin to notice that they are pushed away from Planetos instead, which will be even weirder. At the same time, the engines react to local gravity and not the balance of forces that messes with the perceived weight, meaning the handling of the Moonchaser will be utterly disconnected from what everyone is personally perceiving.

This is very much not trivial and nothing we can just divine.
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On the other hand, they ask questions like "will this kill us all?" and "will this strand us in space?" and as long as nobody is Mindblanked it should work.
I'm not saying Divination should allow you to reverse-engineer orbital mechanics or whatever, but it definitely ought to allow you to avoid deadly accidents. Worst case you can't think of something that doesn't end in death, and so you don't even make the attempt.
Well, no, worst case involves Moonsong making the attempt anyway and having a horrible accident because it'd make for a fun story.
Actually, the real worst case is setting off and then being gobbled by a Mind Blanked Aberration from beyond the stars that doesn't like intruders into its nice territory.
...
Pathfinder has done weird stuff to my worldbuilding assumptions.

On another note, D&D magic does make orbital flight a lot safer. Not only can you always Teleport or Plane Shift to safety (or just to lose momentum), but every flying spell (including the lowly Fly spell) effectively makes gravity and speed a non-issue.
The only thing that's stopping us from using Fly, a Ring of Sustenance and a Necklace of Adaptation to get to the moon is the fact that it would be really fucking slow, that it would make combat very dangerous, and that it's easily possible to get lost on the way unless you can cast Find the Path.
Same problems as just chain-Teleporting there, really. Having a vehicle that can carry cargo and troops is much more convenient that relying on high-level, well-equipped mages with bags of holding.

And on a third topic : I really suggest not using D&D rules to figure out how far you can see. Those rules really don't scale very well, and the further away you go the more invisible everything is.
And they don't even make sense : the Stormwrack ship-to-ship Spot distance penalties are very different from the basic Spot distance penalties on land.
 
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Adhoc vote count started by DragonParadox on Apr 24, 2020 at 4:42 PM, finished with 34 posts and 12 votes.
  • [X] Plan Reaching Out
    -[X] Resolve to send a mix of diplomats and unofficial agents to the Red Flower Vale and Ibben. These developments present a chance to expand your borders or at least your sphere of influence.
    -[X] Have the captain who claims to have reached Asshai divined throughly to check if his claims are true.
    -[X] Moar rumours!
    [X] More reports on the doings of the last month (Rumor post)
Click to expand...
 
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Part MMMCDLXX: Of Incense and Ashes
  • Threadmarks
    • Of Incense and Ashes ​

    First Day of the First Month 294 AC

    Setting down the report from Silver Serpent you resolve to send diplomats to Ibben and Red Flower Vale both. There is a chance you might expand your rule, or at the very least your influence. There is one other even more distant journey you are interested in... After a few short moments spent in meditation the answers come to you, clear as the cheerful voices of passersby drifting through the window. Yes, Xhahosta had found new land and people dwelling there. But it was not Asshai-by the-Shadow, but another city where mages ruled. Mage priests perhaps, the verses are hard to parse out. It would be worth speaking to the captain by proxy or even in person, but for now there is another realm both infinitely closer and more distant you would hear news of.

    "How does it feel to be back again?" you ask Maelor as you, he, Malarys and Ser Richard take seats at the small chart table.

    "It's strange to look up and see the sky is blue and the sun's just a little spot of fire in it," the boy replies with a laugh. "Smelling this much salt and water makes me worry someone's running unsecured contraband too."

    "Try to resist scooping up a few buckets to sell," you reply dryly. "How is the City of Brass faring these days? Not your own operations, a broader sense of current events and the renewed war that is impacting the Dominion."

    "Right, there's not shortage of rumors 'round the bazaar, but for stuff that might be particularly worth knowing..."

    Costly Poisons: Hannann, Najala and many other of the sorts of smoke and incense than are a pleasure to many and a chain to others are growing more expensive, particularly in the Middle City as alchemists are drafted for the war or simply find more lucrative work for their talents making weapons.

    The Taint of Heresy: Though the Dervishes and other worshipers of the Sultan are seen as the most fanatical enforcers of his will, bound by pacts and lifelong devotion, there have been growing whispers of heresy in their ranks, ones who worship deathless fire in some other guise or manner. It might be the hand of Hell reaching ever tighter around the city or perhaps Ymeri Queen of Inferno, it might even be no more than the Sultan's growing paranoia, but the raids and arrests at least have been confirmed from multiple trustworthy sources, at least as much as anyone can be trusted in the City of Brass

    Steel and Silk: A high ranking general of the Brazen Hosts was assassinated in one of the more select brothels of the Upper City, not itself surprising given how often one must climb over the corpses of one's superiors to arise in the service of the Brazen Throne, but usually the one slain and disgraced can be raised to serve again, that his power and knowledge is not wholly lost. Yet it is said in whispers, frightened or gleeful depending on the speaker, that General Azara faced True Death beyond recall by the Sultan and his infernal allies both.

    What next?

    [] Another perspective on Empire Day
    -[] Joran of Dragonstone
    -[] Yssla Royce
    -[] 'Fair' Walda Frey
    -[] Renly Storm (the Changeling)
    -[] Thoros of Myr
    -[] Write in

    [] More reports on the doings of the last month (Rumor post)

    [] Continue with Viserys
    -[] Write in

    [] Write in

    OOC: I thought about doing war reports, but those take a lot of rolling and its late, then it occurred to me that I had never done proper City of Brass rumors even though you guys should have access to them. So here we are.
     
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    • DragonParadox said:
    Costly Poisons: Hannann, Najala and many other of the sorts of smoke and incense than are a pleasure to many and a chain to others are growing more expensive, particularly in the middle city as alchemists are drafted for the war or simply find more lucrative work for their talents making weapons of war
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    @Azel @Goldfish, you think we can start having Maelor sell this stuff in the City of Brass? We know how to make all of it, and it gives him a good excuse to have more liquid cash visibly at hand.
    DragonParadox said:
    The Taint of Heresy: Though the Dervishes and other worshipers of the Sultan are seen as the most fanatical enforcers of his will, bound by pacts and lifelong devotion there have been growing whispers of heresy in their ranks, ones who worship deathless fire in some other guise or manner. It might be the hand of Hell reaching ever tighter around the city or perhaps Ymeri Queen of Inferno, it might even be no more than the Sultan's growing paranoia, but the raids and arrests at least have been confirmed from multiple trustworthy sources, at least as much as anyone can be trusted in the City of Brass
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    Tales of Melisandre and R'hllor are starting to spread. Though it's pretty funny R'hllor the Red isn't more well known in the Plane of Molten Skies of all places.
    DragonParadox said:
    Steel and Silk: A high ranking general of the Brazen Hosts was assassinated in one of the more select brothels of the Upper City, not itself surprising given how often one must climb over the corpses of one's superiors to arise in the service of the Brazen Throne, but usually the one slain and disgraced can be raised to serve again, that his power and knowledge is not wholly lost. Yet it is said in whispers frightened or gleeful depending on the speaker that general Azara faced True Death beyond recall by the Sultan and his infernal allies both.
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    Oooh. I want to know more. What's the method of true death? Who's the assassin?
     
    Good night guys, see you tomorrow with more of Empire Day

    Fun fact, I just experienced a minor earthquake IRL a few minutes ago... because that is what one wants to have happen just before bed.
     
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