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A Sword Without a Hilt: A Song of Ice and Fire/D&D 3.5 Crossover

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masterofmadness said:
You know as much as I do like the idea of people who sleep with 17 year olds getting punished maybe we should wait a bit till we have some information from him and keep our cool here? Like people are saying lot about him accusing her of a crime but remember he was also very quickly convinced it wasn't her that tried to kill him when he saw it with his own eyes then demanded to rescue her after. This after nearly dying to somebody wearing her face which is very much an emotionally damaging thing no matter how you slice it. People do dumb thing on emotion in dangerous situations.

Like I am sure he is a dick to some degree but some of the suggestion are going a little too far. At least this is Dorne so having a bastard is far less damaging for both the mother and child then it would be anywhere else.
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Hence the second part of my statement about this maybe being more complex than it actually was. He did accuse her of a crime but was willing to give her the benefit of the doubt. There is still the "sleeping with a 17-year-old" but that is neither here nor there. I might have been too harsh in my initial judgement.

edit: I will try to refrain from judging people based on who they slept with from now on.
 
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I can comfort myself with the fact that he owes us a huge debt since we saved his life (and possibly his soul) and we can pop the secret in case he overdose on Seven koolaid
 
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Adhoc vote count started by Goldfish on Mar 19, 2020 at 7:46 PM, finished with 72 posts and 13 votes.
  • [X] Viserys uses Celerity to cast a Mythic Time Stop spell affecting himself and Tyene.
    -[X] While affected by the Time Stop, Tyene casts Greater Angelic Aspect and moves close enough so that Jeyne Fowler will be enveloped by her 20 foot radius protective aura, which includes a Magic Circle Against Evil effect. She will then cast Sunbeam in preparation for using it once the Time Stop ends.
    -[X] Once no longer Stunned due to using Celerity, Viserys will expend a 9th level spell slot to Summon a Ghaele Azata directly behind Jeyne, which will act to restrain and disarm her as soon as the Time Stop ends and it comes into being. If enough time remains during the Time Stop, he also casts Telekinesis which he will use to try to disarm Jeyne of the bone dagger if the Azata is unable to.
    --[X] If possible, Viserys will use Celerity once more in order to target the spirit possessing Jeyne with a Trap the Soul spell using Wild Arcana when Tyene's aura forces it from her body after the normal flow of time resumes.
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Having no personal stake in Jeyne Fowler, nor any foreknowledge if he was just that callous towards her, or merely as irresponsible about having a fling as many a Dornishman, I can't say I'm all that upset about the fact that she's carrying his unborn child.

But it would make him rather hypocritical, and any argument he tried to make about virtue or whatever would ring very hollow to anyone who knew the truth of the matter.

Being a leader of a religious faction only works if your reputation is beyond reproach within the confines of its strictures, and Andrew just took his out back and shot it on his own.
 
[X] Goldfish
That's an excellent piece of blackmail to have on hand should the Faith faction get too uppity. "If honourable lords cannot be trusted to practice what they preach, who even can?"
 
I realize how I got to the conclusion I did. My mind drew a line between "17-year old girl, 33-year-old man", "Accusing her of crime after given reasonable doubt" and "Unborn bastard" added them together and came up with Grade A douchebag. Not realizing that the only reason that vote existed was that Andrew was adamant about trying to rescue her. I am gonna admit I was wrong. My brain went on complete instinct about our enemies being douchebags all the time and not realizing that they are nuanced at times and the situation is often complex.
 
Nickan said:
That's an excellent piece of blackmail to have on hand should the Faith faction get too uppity. "If honourable lords cannot be trusted to practice what they preach, who even can?"
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That's probably what we'll end up doing yes. Though the dirt is only good on Dayne, so we'll mostly threaten to ruin his life if he doesn't quell things with his faction. In practice this'll probably just buy Doran some time until the faction splits in between moderates who stay with Dayne and hardcore people who leave and continue raising hell, but it splitting is a good thing for us.
One Autumn Leaf said:
I realize how I got to the conclusion I did. My mind drew a line between "17-year old girl, 33-year-old man", "Accusing her of crime" and "Unborn bastard" added them together and came up with Grade A douchebag. Not realizing that the only reason that vote existed was that Andrew was adamant about trying to rescue her. I am gonna admit I was wrong. My brain went on complete instinct about our enemies being douchebags all the time and not realizing that they are nuanced at times and the situation is often complex.
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Oh, he's totally a douchebag. He's just not a huge douchebag, more of a regular douchebag who happens to also be a huge hypocrite.
 
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Nickan said:
I am inordinately pleased you did not edit out the british (and proper!) spelling.
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No, well, I mean I alternate. I prefer color over colour, but also like Armour over Armor (though that one is borderline and depends on my mood). British spelling is less offensive to American sensibilities overall anyway (since most people who would complain are too illiterate to understand) than that oddball measurement system of yours. :V
 
One Autumn Leaf said:
Hence the second part of my statement about this maybe being more complex than it actually was. He did accuse her of a crime but was willing to give her the benefit of the doubt. There is still the "sleeping with a 17-year-old" but that is neither here nor there. I might have been too harsh in my initial judgement.

edit: I will try to refrain from judging people based on who they slept with from now on.
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The power and age differential still make this fucked up, this is absolutely a good time to judge him on who he's sleeping with. I'd argue that a relationship like that is inherently exploitative and manipulative. There are a wide range of options for how this went, but even the least bad of them still make the guy worthy of contempt.
 
Just had a thought; we don't really know what method of control is being used on Jeyne, or more importantly, for how long it has been going on. I'm assuming it's some form of Possession, but there are other possibilities, and some of them have a very long duration, such as Dominate Person. "Jeyne" may very well have seduced Andrew with the express purpose of bringing into existence an unborn child to use as a sacrificial component to end one or more bloodlines.
 
BronzeTongue said:
The power and age differential still make this fucked up, this is absolutely a good time to judge him on who he's sleeping with. I'd argue that a relationship like that is inherently exploitative and manipulative. There are a wide range of options for how this went, but even the least bad of them still make the guy worthy of contempt.
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He's a Dayne who would defend Arthur's actions based on the fact that he was loyal to our House, vs. actually having any principles.

I think we are tunnelvisioning too much here and letting personal bias color opinions. The above is not at all an uncommon opinion to hold across Westeros' nobility both among male and female demographics. It forms the basis of the feudal contract that greater oaths will compel you to act against the lesser ones which bind you, that if your brother raised his arms against your King you in turn would fight your brother for him because he is a rebel and thus a traitor.

Nobles are hypocrites and will choose values based on what benefits them at the time. Andrew might even say honestly that a lot of the values he holds he cleaves to honestly, but he's still human and can make mistakes. This is a really big one, and it calls into question a lot of everything else he says. It certainly makes it impossible to claim a holier than thou stance when there is spitting proof that he scorned multiple values that the Seven teach us.
 
Goldfish said:
Just had a thought; we don't really know what method of control is being used on Jeyne, or more importantly, for how long it has been going on. I'm assuming it's some form of Possession, but there are other possibilities, and some of them have a very long duration, such as Dominate Person. "Jeyne" may very well have seduced Andrew with the express purpose of bringing into existence an unborn child to use as a sacrificial component to end one or more bloodlines.
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Are you implying that Jeynehas been possessed or under the influence of a creature for more than 8 months? Because that would be one hell of a long play by the Others. But Lord Fowler made a sacrifice though. Wouldn't Bloodraven give him a head's up regarding the taint of Winter that cloaks his family?

Edit: I am asking because he grew a tree. Wouldn't Bloodraven sense the touch of Winter on or near him? the lord would be in proximity of his daughter after all.
 
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Goldfish said:
Just had a thought; we don't really know what method of control is being used on Jeyne, or more importantly, for how long it has been going on. I'm assuming it's some form of Possession, but there are other possibilities, and some of them have a very long duration, such as Dominate Person. "Jeyne" may very well have seduced Andrew with the express purpose of bringing into existence an unborn child to use as a sacrificial component to end one or more bloodlines.
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Unless they used magic to enforce that he was still the adult in the room and should have had the presence of mind to remove himself from the situation or talk to her parents.
 
Multiple months without anyone noticing sounds like way too much for an agent of the Others to pull off in the normal run of things. Specially with a house devoted to the Old Gods. "Jeyne" would have had to systematically avoid the heart tree without appearing to be out of character.
 
One Autumn Leaf said:
Are you implying that Jeynehas been possessed or under the influence of a creature for more than 8 months? Because that would be one hell of a long play by the Others. But Lord Fowler made a sacrifice though. Wouldn't Bloodraven give him a head's up regarding the taint of Winter that cloaks his family?

Edit: I am asking because he grew a tree. Wouldn't Bloodraven sense the touch of Winter on or near him? He would be in proximity of his daughter after all.
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It needn't be that long. Could easily be just a few months, and the control need not be constant, depending on what memory-altering spells or powers are used in the interim.

Just a possibility I figured I would mention. Chances are, it hasn't be such a long running plot by the Others or their agents.
 
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Adhoc vote count started by egoo on Mar 19, 2020 at 11:55 PM, finished with 93 posts and 16 votes.
  • [X] Viserys uses Celerity to cast a Mythic Time Stop spell affecting himself and Tyene.
    -[X] While affected by the Time Stop, Tyene casts Greater Angelic Aspect and moves close enough so that Jeyne Fowler will be enveloped by her 20 foot radius protective aura, which includes a Magic Circle Against Evil effect. She will then cast Sunbeam in preparation for using it once the Time Stop ends.
    -[X] Once no longer Stunned due to using Celerity, Viserys will expend a 9th level spell slot to Summon a Ghaele Azata directly behind Jeyne, which will act to restrain and disarm her as soon as the Time Stop ends and it comes into being. If enough time remains during the Time Stop, he also casts Telekinesis which he will use to try to disarm Jeyne of the bone dagger if the Azata is unable to.
    --[X] If possible, Viserys will use Celerity once more in order to target the spirit possessing Jeyne with a Trap the Soul spell using Wild Arcana when Tyene's aura forces it from her body after the normal flow of time resumes.
Click to expand...
 
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