A Sword Without a Hilt: A Song of Ice and Fire/D&D 3.5 Crossover

[Duesal]

OK so having read this it's clear there is a strong current towards tightening up the quest and I will certainly do my best to help with that, but I feel like I have to caution you guys about something, there is a lot happening in the world. It's a product of how long this quest has been going on. I think we should keep at least the background MAs as @egoo pointed out otherwise I'm going to have to justify IC why someone with access to a lot of competent minions does not send people to look at things that only need a few hours of talking to get and transmit the necessary information.

Also the current minor actions have been voted on. I do not feel comfortable overruling any of that without another vote. That is not fair quest design.

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The main complaint is that they take screen time and significantly slow the quest down. If they're offscreen I don't think there would be complaints about this at all/

 

[Artemis1992]

The main complaint is that they take screen time and significantly slow the quest down. If they're offscreen I don't think there would be complaints about this at all/

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Would them being offscreen really speed things up though?
DP still has to roll them and at least create a narrative of what happened in his head and notes. Otherwise things haven't happened after all.

Sure, not writing it fully out for reader-consumption saves time, but not really that much in the big picture.

 

[Duesal]

Would them being offscreen really speed things up though?
DP still has to roll them and at least create a narrative of what happened in his head and notes. Otherwise things haven't happened after all.

Sure, not writing it fully out for reader-consumption saves time, but not really that much in the big picture.

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Good point.

 

[Crake]

@DragonParadox There's nothing inherently wrong with voting to have someone else do something on our behalf, but there is starting to be a serious problem when that stuff is not described more briefly. Personally, I do enjoy interludes, but I think we should experiment with making interludes more outside perspectives again, at this point our minions are basically just an extension of our will. For awhile that was new and novel, we hardly ever got interludes that were so close to home, but I think it's time we branched back out to interludes sort of coming in between story arcs, rather than frequently interrupting them.

IMPORTANT: None of us particularly mind if you do multiple interludes back to back, either, but the timing significantly contributes to losing focus in the middle of important arcs.

 

[Duesal]

IMPORTANT: None of us particularly mind if you do multiple interludes back to back, either, but the timing significantly contributes to losing focus in the middle of important arcs.

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This is a bit of a problem with pacing. If we're in the middle of an intense fight, for the narrative and flow at least that's a terrible place to stick an interlude.

OOC this happens to give the thread time to bash together a battle plan but it's more than a little jarring to be reading some fight with a CR 20 Oblivion murderbeast and then randomly cut to a slice of life in Sorcerer's Deep.

 

[Crake]

Would them being offscreen really speed things up though?
DP still has to roll them and at least create a narrative of what happened in his head and notes. Otherwise things haven't happened after all.

Sure, not writing it fully out for reader-consumption saves time, but not really that much in the big picture.

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I would argue that writing actually consumes a lot of time, esp. if you are trying to get into another mindset, handle structure and mechanics for writing, and also keeping track of game information and thread discussion and so on.

He writes an interlude every day. We would have one more update on average with his mind not really consumed with trying to get into a different headspace, which on the whole would seriously speed up this quest as a matter of course.

 

[Crake]

Also, thinking about the immediate counterargument from @DragonParadox already, but, yes, some interludes to cover main actions from Companions who are doing shit that will have immediate and direct relevance to Viserys' point of view is obviously a necessity.

but think back to the last several months, how often have interludes been like that? Think of the tight focus behind Tyene, Garin and Waymar's Yi Ti arc, it had stakes and a plot, but a lot of the other interludes which focus on minor side characters, while enjoyable, are disjointed because you have more time to devote to main characters, you have already built up their motivations, the stakes behind their actions, everything like that, you can fall back on it on short notice and focus on the world.

And it's not like I don't pick up the slack for minor side characters as well. I don't even tend to play favorites for my pet PCs when it comes to writing omakes.

 

[Artemis1992]

I would argue that writing actually consumes a lot of time, esp. if you are trying to get into another mindset, handle structure and mechanics for writing, and also keeping track of game information and thread discussion and so on.

He writes an interlude every day. We would have one more update on average with his mind not really consumed with trying to get into a different headspace, which on the whole would seriously speed up this quest as a matter of course.

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I can see the point about headspace.

Now, I don't know how @DragonParadox mind works, but maybe it could be functional if he works through a larger mission (for example Slaver's Bay this month) in one piece, from the beginning to the end. That would propably take serious time even without writing, but better to loose two or even three updates on that one day than 5 or 6 over the next few weeks.
Is that what you mean Crake?

 

[Crake]

I would be fine if he tightened focus on even interlude plot arcs, in fact did them all in one go with no regular updates for two to three days. It would be better for the story, absolutely, @DragonParadox.

 

[egoo]

I would argue that writing actually consumes a lot of time, esp. if you are trying to get into another mindset, handle structure and mechanics for writing, and also keeping track of game information and thread discussion and so on.

He writes an interlude every day. We would have one more update on average with his mind not really consumed with trying to get into a different headspace, which on the whole would seriously speed up this quest as a matter of course.

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Mind, without Minor Actions, there are still other tasks we assign people to do.

Sure, infrastructure could be easily reported in a batch, we've seen this done.
But many RAs kinda require the screen-time, at least that measly single update, to have any importance to them.

We have several ongoing interludes about our minions delving into shitty places, and they have generally been taken very well.
We stop doing that on-screen, and we lose out on such things like that "awesome killing of squids" DP backgrounded not too long ago.

I dont have much of a stake in the latter, but... I'd like to have RAs at least matter, still.

MAs are mostly resolved with this month.
Seriously.
We have some more stuff that is purely social to do as Viserys, and then... well, no backlog at least, and from there we can just keep assigning most stuff to... whoever.

Edit: partially ninja'ed but I. Still. Live!

 

[Crake]

Solution: Research less. Make it more complicated, require rare reagents and unique experiences to advance down the tech tree further. Stop making it easy and forgettable.

There's almost as little point in advancing one branch or another even if, or even especially, if it's done and forgotten in a month, or we make use of it exactly once for one niche purpose. Just imply subtly that the "Scholarum is working on stuff" in the background and allude to some details and we still obtain a sense of scale.

If you want to research something, make it actual research. Actual research is difficult.

 

[DragonParadox]

I can see the point about headspace.

Now, I don't know how @DragonParadox mind works, but maybe it could be functional if he works through a larger mission (for example Slaver's Bay this month) in one piece, from the beginning to the end. That would propably take serious time even without writing, but better to loose two or even three updates on that one day than 5 or 6 over the next few weeks.
Is that what you mean Crake?

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I would be fine if he tightened focus on even interlude plot arcs, in fact did them all in one go with no regular updates for two to three days. It would be better for the story, absolutely, @DragonParadox.

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OK, We''ll try this. It's certainly easier for me not to juggle so many narrative threads at the same time but I'm concerned about moving away from Viserys for too long in his own quest.

 

[Crake]

OK, We''ll try this. It's certainly easier for me not to juggle so many narrative threads at the same time but I'm concerned about moving away from Viserys for too long in his own quest.

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Solution: Discourage splitting the party more. We'll do it less.

And by this, I am not being sarcastic, if not 100% sincere. Don't make it impossible to do so, when you yourself will immediately tell me it would be illogical.

There are a bunch of reasons not to do so, we are not as under threat as we used to be all of the time, but I think it's time assassination attempts worked their way back into the story, as well as the utter reliability of our hired and sworn help not being machine precise and guaranteed as our battle-tested true Companions.

 

[DragonParadox]

Solution: Discourage splitting the party more. We'll do it less.

And by this, I am not being sarcastic, if not 100% sincere. Don't make it impossible to do so, when you yourself will immediately tell me it would be illogical.

There are a bunch of reasons not to do so, we are not as under threat as we used to be all of the time, but I think it's time assassination attempts worked their way back into the story, as well as the utter reliability of our hired and sworn help not being machine precise and guaranteed as our battle-tested true Companions.

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Very fair, I'm going to have to reorder some things in my head to make everything more active around you (I can neither confirm or deny assassination attempts that would be a spoiler).

 

[Crake]

Very fair, I'm going to have to reorder some things in my head to make everything more active around you (I can neither confirm or deny assassination attempts that would be a spoiler).

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The main obstacle to a writer in this situation is the important question.

"Where the fuck is Viserys Targaryen?" We are more slippery than Carmen Sandiego. We are consummate and professional actor slipping into one mask and out of another, moment to moment, day to day.

Where the fuck is he? You can't divine him.

What the fuck is he? Not your average sorcerer king.

When the fuck is he? Not even this is guaranteed information.

The logistics behind an assassination attempt on him are hard to deal with, since he hops around the universe so much, literally. I think only Asmodeus would be able to make a casual attempt.

Tywin basically has no chance. And the Deep Ones would struggle, they have a hard time wrapping their head around normal people.

 

[Artemis1992]

And the Deep Ones would struggle, they have a hard time wrapping their head around normal people.

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To be fair, they have an empirically tested method.
Attack our ships in sufficient force that the crew can't win and Viserys, or at least some companions will show up.
Then send in shit that might succede in killing Vis.

Doesn't take a 5-meter brain to find that out and they happen to have one lying around.

 

[Crake]

To be fair, they have an empirically tested method.
Attack our ships in sufficient force that the crew can't win and Viserys, or at least some companions will show up.
Then send in shit that might succede in killing Vis.

Doesn't take a 5-meter brain to find that out and they happen to have one lying around.

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We can actually legitimately delegate this stuff these days. We have enough force. And if you spring every ambush, you can fist them up the ass once it's already been sprung and cards are on the table just by spending a single Sending Stone to warn Viserys that the force attacking is too much to deal with.

 

[egoo]

Solution: Research less. Make it more complicated, require rare reagents and unique experiences to advance down the tech tree further. Stop making it easy and forgettable.

There's almost as little point in advancing one branch or another even if, or even especially, if it's done and forgotten in a month, or we make use of it exactly once for one niche purpose. Just imply subtly that the "Scholarum is working on stuff" in the background and allude to some details and we still obtain a sense of scale.

If you want to research something, make it actual research. Actual research is difficult.

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Sorry, I just cant with this.
Augh.

Alright.
We have a lot of difficult projects that will take us multiple months (at best) to finish.

We are rushing select few projects because we have enough researchers for that, but we are literally throwing 5+ brightest minds of the Enpire at the wall to see what sticks.
And even then, those we can rush at all only for a reason.
The Final Contravention?
We had our people looking into relevant lore, making up rituals, and studying stuff related to Pact Primeval for a while.
All to use a single loophole.

Anu's Forge of Creation?
He worked on it for 7(!) months now IC.


Here are just some projects with Progress high enough it's genuinely difficult to do them:

[] Inquisitorial Armaments > Black Projects: Inquisition faces challenges beyond those that can be reasonably solved with mundane equipment. As the realm grows, so does the need to supply Inquisitors with the tools to solve such problems. This line of projects intends to create a whole new tool, that, given a certain level of secrecy, will guarantee a significant rise in Inquisitors' effectiveness (Tiered research, each development requires previous tiers)

[] Inquisitorial Armaments: Black Project "Arbiter": Create a modified version of a Launcher, the "Arbiter"-class Launcher, a modular weapon and a base for further technological improvement, yet an effective weapon all in of itself. (Progress: 20, Cost: 60.000)
-[] Inquisitorial Armaments: Black Project: "Heavy Arbiter" and FIrefield: Further develop the concept of "Arbiter"-class Launcher for use in missions requiring precise devastation of targets, with no mage of sufficient power available. Develop the "Heavy Arbiter"-class Launcher. As further development of the concept, "Firefield"-class Launcher would serve in situations when overwhelming firepower and total destruction of the target is necessary, but no sufficient source of fire support is available. (Progress: 28, Cost: 100.000 IM)

[] Inquisitorial Armaments: Black Projects: "Dragon's Fang" and "Viper's Kiss": As a tool for a very particular sort of missions where direct engagement isn't possible, "Dragon's Fang"-class Launcher would serve as a long-range engagement or assassination. "Viper's Kiss"-type Alchemical Dart would further enhance the performance by allowing unnoticeable delivery of poisons over extreme distances. (Progress: 28, Cost: 140.000 IM)
-[] Inquisitorial Armaments: Black Project: "Deathstrike Projector": Further develop on of concepts applied by "Dragon's Fang"-class Launcher and "Viper's Kiss"-type Alchemical Dart, creating a unique completely magic-based long-range engagement/assassination weapon - the "Deathstrike Projector". (Progress: 32, Cost: 150.000) IM

[] Inquisitorial Armaments: Black Project: "Lawgiver": The pinnacle of Launcher-based weaponry - the peak of efficiency and the project of utmost secrecy - "Lawgiver"-class Launcher would be one of the most powerful personal weapons known to Imperium, and one made to serve only the best of Inquisition's field agents, bound to them ritually, and crafted by the only person who could be trusted with it - Wisdom Lya herself. (Progress: 32, Cost: 180.000 IM)

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Tiered on top of high DCs.

[] Layering the Defenses: The composite mesh recovered from Varys was truly an ingenious work... Yet based on it, even more could be achieved.
-[] Develop the Composite Armor, combining the expertise of Fey artisans, Imperial magesmiths, and Celestial spellwork to create the sort of armor that has so far no equal in the world - not hindering the wearer in any way, yet leave no gaps or chinks in his defense. Light and inconspicuous, yet stopping even the blades of demonic warriors. (Progress: 20, Cost: 90,000 IM)

[] Tireless Steel, by Sorcery Moved: The art of golem-making is ancient indeed... but one has to wonder if it is possible to wring an armor in the same qualities, to create personal defense truly unsurpassable. (Requires the "Layering the Defenses"-Research Action)
-[] Develop the basic chassis of the Imperial Powered Armor systems - and create the Warden Pattern armor. (Progress: 26, Cost: 140.000 IM)
-[] Continue the research into the creation of unstoppable war-gear - develop Warlord Pattern armor [requires Warden Armor developed] (Progress: 30, Cost: 20.0000)
-[] Reach the peak of what is possible in the field without the direct Divine intervention - develop Titan Pattern armor [requires Warlord Pattern armor developed] (Progress: 30, Cost: 300.000 IM)

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Tiered as well.

[] The Undeath's End: The secret of creation of the ancient and extremely potent anti-Undead poison you received from Faceless Men is lost to eons... Yet one of the greatest poison-makers the world knows is in your employ, and few other races have as much intimate knowledge of poisons as the Snake-kin, and the Drow, both of whom you have access to. Recreate the ancient mixture (Progress: 50, Cost: ??)

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[] A Method to Madness: the body the Mind-Eaters crafted for Jeyne with infiltration in mind is an incredible piece of magic wholly unlike anything you've ever seen. Copying it won't be easy, but succeeding promises an ability to flesh-craft similar vessels as needed, granting you an in into mysteries of Psionic powers.
-[] Research into Psionic templates
(Progress: 40, Cost: 200.000 IM)

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And that's just some basics, while we have Psionic Dragon, Worm, and a mind-eater in custody and Gith's lore on Psionics.

[] The Stone of Memories, The Stone of Visions: The mysterious Serpentstone Projector you recovered from the deeper parts of Riz'Neth's city may not look like much... But you have learned quite well how much but a little show before the audience as large as cities could mean for a ruler.
-[] Research the Serpentstone Projectors, emphasizing the function of recording visual and auditory signals - something that may well be priceless if a way is found to make more of such "recorders" cheaply, and also searching for a way to integrate them with the MirrorVision network - allowing to both (hopefully) make MirrorVision sets cheaper and easier to make, and to store transmissions shown - perhaps allowing for plays and speeches to be replayed in the future? (Progress: 45, Cost: 50.000 IM)

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And lets not even start on the God-crafting line, where it is so tiered we can't even see the next 3-5 steps, let alone those after them, before we finish the current ones.


Let's be clear on one thing, @Crake.
I am not a proponent of "easy research".
I'm the main reason we even have DCs as high as these right now.
Had it been my choice, we'd have 100 for that poison, and far more 50s.

That aside, revamping the whole system is out of my capability for now.
I can cobble together a batch to throw at the thread with a question "hey guys, do we need these? May I throw them out?", but that will solve little beyond making it cleaner and easier to orient in.

 

[Artemis1992]

We can actually legitimately delegate this stuff these days. We have enough force. And if you spring every ambush, you can fist them up the ass once it's already been sprung and cards are on the table just by spending a single Sending Stone to warn Viserys that the force attacking is too much to deal with.

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That's where the details start, but I think the general execution can work.

Send a force dangerous enough to overwhelm a valuable convoy, the Yi-Ti expedition is the biggest but not only option.

The ships send a message that they are minutes from being overwhelmed, but the force doesn't seem more than Viserys can handle. Maybe a Kraken and a lot of chaff, for example. That means no gathering conventional forces, no taking Balerion because he takes like 16 Teleport spots, great likelyhood that just Viserys and the nearest companions and a few Erinyes come.

Then, once he's here play whatever trumpcard you think can beat Viserys. By our own arrogance and the value of the ships we'll likely at least try to fight and win.

 

[Crake]

Sorry, I just cant with this.
Augh.

Alright.
We have a lot of difficult projects that will take us multiple months (at best) to finish.

We are rushing select few projects because we have enough researchers for that, but we are literally throwing 5+ brightest minds of the Enpire at the wall to see what sticks.
And even then, those we can rush at all only for a reason.
The Final Contravention?
We had our people looking into relevant lore, making up rituals, and studying stuff related to Pact Primeval for a while.
All to use a single loophole.

Anu's Forge of Creation?
He worked on it for 7(!) months now IC.


Here are just some projects with Progress high enough it's genuinely difficult to do them:
Tiered on top of high DCs.
Tiered as well.


And that's just some basics, while we have Psionic Dragon, Worm, and a mind-eater in custody and Gith's lore on Psionics.

And lets not even start on the God-crafting line, where it is so tiered we can't even see the next 3-5 steps, let alone those after them, before we finish the current ones.


Let's be clear on one thing, @Crake.
I am not a proponent of "easy research".
I'm the main reason we even have DCs as high as these right now.
Had it been my choice, we'd have 100 for that poison, and far more 50s.

That aside, revamping the whole system is out of my capability for now.
I can cobble together a batch to throw at the thread with a question "hey guys, do we need these? May I throw them out?", but that will solve little beyond making it cleaner and easier to orient in.

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Okay, point of fact, we have not really devoted much effort to these in order to get a sense of the stakes, but we have fixated on them for long period of time.

What I mean to say is, stop coming up with new research, and of the research we do have, devote particular focus. Stop obsessing with hypothetical capabilities and make the capabilities we do gain more nuanced, lore-rich, and heavily utilized. Governments research things in lopsided manner as well, because they want to gain the most wide-scale use and the most benefit. It is when you end up with shit like the Bradley AFV that you take that lopsidedness and see how lots of money and experts thrown at a problem instead completely fails to accomplish its intended goal.

We need to fail a little more if we overreach, I guess. To get a proper sense of both stakes and scale.

Consequently, if we focus on one thing more, we will feel a sense of real accomplishment because we ensured it was done right.

But absolutely deciding everything on the docket is equally important is setting us up for failure.

So give us failure.

 

[Crake]

That's where the details start, but I think the general execution can work.

Send a force dangerous enough to overwhelm a valuable convoy, the Yi-Ti expedition is the biggest but not only option.

The ships send a message that they are minutes from being overwhelmed, but the force doesn't seem more than Viserys can handle. Maybe a Kraken and a lot of chaff, for example. That means no gathering conventional forces, no taking Balerion because he takes like 16 Teleport spots, great likelyhood that just Viserys and the nearest companions and a few Erinyes come.

Then, once he's here play whatever trumpcard you think can beat Viserys. By our own arrogance and the value of the ships we'll likely at least try to fight and win.

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Could work.

I would try it, if I was trying to kill me.

 

[DragonParadox]

A lot of good ideas.

I have to say I really do appreciate this discussion guys, it does make me feel a little guilty since this is all stuff I should be handling, but still it's nice to see we can talk out issues of this sort.

 

[egoo]

Okay, point of fact, we have not really devoted much effort to these in order to get a sense of the stakes, but we have fixated on them for long period of time.

What I mean to say is, stop coming up with new research, and of the research we do have, devote particular focus. Stop obsessing with hypothetical capabilities and make the capabilities we do gain more nuanced, lore-rich, and heavily utilized. Governments research things in lopsided manner as well, because they want to gain the most wide-scale use and the most benefit. It is when you end up with shit like the Bradley AFV that you take that lopsidedness and see how lots of money and experts thrown at a problem instead completely fails to accomplish its intended goal.

We need to fail a little more if we overreach, I guess. To get a proper sense of both stakes and scale.

Consequently, if we focus on one thing more, we will feel a sense of real accomplishment because we ensured it was done right.

But absolutely deciding everything on the docket is equally important is setting us up for failure.

So give us failure.

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You are assuming that:
A) I continue coming up with stuff.
B) I'm pushing through every single project on the list.

Both are wrong.
I've stopped about two-three months ago IC. Since then, I but added a few projects that other posters insisted on, like Psionic stuff by Duesal.

Neither do I care for as much as a quarter of the stuff.
The list represents what we know (Progress values reflect that), what we think possible based off current knowledge (if we dont know enough to try DP straight-up doesn't allow an RA.

The weirdstone-projectors being the prime example- because I asked about them as long as a half-year ago IC, but we only got an idea about the stuff after visiting the Snekropolis.


I get where you are coming from, though.
Again, we dont have enough focus on things for them to seem realistic.

One can assume we fail a lot throughout the development cycles, but we just don't see that, getting only the report, essentialy.

@DragonParadox, for more Progress-intensive projects, starting from, say, 20-25+ - can we have interludes showing failures and fuckups where appropriate, until the researchers come up with something that actually works?

That's just one way to put a bandaid on this, and it crashes into the "interludes eat up screen-time", but well, what can one do.

 

[Crake]

I am not really trying to put the onus on one person in particular, it is just really difficult to frame a conversation this abstract without trying to address the person I'm talking to, honestly...

By you, assume I just mean the thread at large, again, consent is basically how this thread operates.

In my case, silence is also consent, so in that sense, I am equally to blame.

 

[egoo]

I'm a bit stumped on why we're still here instead of devoting most of this month to cornering the Golden Company and finishing them off, for example.

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By the way, the answer to this is "we were told by DP that divining and reconnaissance'ing everything as needed before the attack will take about a week via Mindblanked Companions, so we might as well spend the time doing something somewhat productive".

We went on to try and gather some allies/mercs.

We could have gone speak to Stannis, or rulers of Lorath (who have expressed a desire to meet), or visited the Dornish tourney, or tried looking for "exiles" of Faceless Men.
All was voted on, all would have taken (and will take later this month) but a bit.

Plane of Water was just a singular "package" of actions, so we went there.


And by the by, I just read all the posts since the 18th of Jan, and I'm in no way sorry we took this long here.
The world-building was awesome, @DragonParadox.

It is just too bad we didn't have something alike in PoA or PoE when we first ventured there.
Now we are just too important and busy to, apparently :/