I still think that this level of democratic reformation makes very little sense given the context of Viserys' background. So far the extent of his meritocratic tendencies have been limited to making people who prove themselves into nobles.

Viserys has the life experience to get the political implications of all these new powerful merchants and mages, but that doesn't mean he'll approach the problem the same way a true reformist would.

In my opinion at least, he'd go for creating more ways for the exceptional to rise up to the powerful political classes and just enough power to the masses to keep everyone who can't meet the standard content.

The current proposal is designed to slowly kill the social class that Viserys identifies with and draws many political ideas from. His problems to date have always been with the sort of people taking aristocratic roles, not the existence of those positions themselves.

I'm not saying he'd leave them unchecked, but these councils are shaping up to clearly push the kind of political traditions that hastened the fall of monarchies in real life. If there was no choice but this to solve the various political problems he faced sure, but why exactly would a staunch monarchist turned dragon emperor suddenly stumble into the political position of an English burgher from the 1300-1500s?

Edit: To be clear, my problem with this is not based on principle. This is a perfectly good way to slowly advance a society towards democracy, and all things considered it's the best form of government we have so far.

My issue is more that it feels like we have a checklist of things a "modern, advanced" society needs, and are slowly working our way through the social phases required to reach them like a civ tech tree.

It doesn't seem to me that it considers the opinions that people like Viserys and his political contemporaries would actually have, or any routes forward that lead to places other than where we've already decided to go.
I see what you mean. However :
  • Viserys doesn't believe in the natural inferiority of non-nobles
  • Viserys does believe in doing what's best for the people
  • Viserys wants the Voices not because he believes in democracy or the electoral process (he's strongly against "mob rule" IC) but because they're a pressure valve against crime, plotting and civil unrest
  • Viserys arguably will weaken the social class he came from, and strengthen a meritocratic, bureaucratic class of administrators. This is certainly not democracy or anything modern, but it isn't traditional feudal nobility either.
AFAIK he in no way intends to make Councils more important than Lords, or anything. Currently they're simply advisors, and the Voice is literally just a way for the rabble to make their voices heard.
It is indeed correct that in the long term the existence of Voices will certainly create social pressures against nobles, but this is when our other social changes come in :
  • IRL, the demand for democracy was largely created by rich middle classes who were struggling against the aristocracy. In our setting there are a number of ways for these rich and powerful non-aristocrats to gain power, influence and prestige.
  • People don't fight for democracy : things are sparked by another issue, and people then want democracy as a way of fixing various other issues. People generally rebel because they want more bread or less poverty or something, not directly because of the ideals.
  • We control the media and education system, which is already open to all. Defending the advantages of a singular leadership which isn't directly beholden to regular elections is easy for us (and these advantages do exist, and are sincerely believed in by a large portion of the setting's current elites).
  • Arguably, increased long-term pressure in favor of democracy is worth it to decrease the likelihood of rebellion and tensions now. Indeed, the current Voices make it more likely that we'll manage to nip increases in such tensions in the bud.
 
Last edited:
The biggest issue, beyond PR problems (which are admittedly fairly minor if managed well), is actually controlling any Undead we create. There are hard limits on how many Undead any single person can control, and increasing those numbers are fairly difficult, or temporary in the case of spells. There are one or two feats which can help with this, too, but that's a heavy investment to make for a generally unpleasant task. Free willed Undead don't necessarily need to be controlled (in the sense that they're not mindless killing machines, not that it's advisable to leave them to their own devices, because that's how brains and souls get eaten), but they're also almost always malevolent creatures with a desire to destroy the living and/or create more of their own kind, and those few who overcome this pitfall still tend to prey on intelligent living creatures as food or entertainment.
The Soulforged Template takes care of dead. These undead are docile and can be ordered around like constructs. They don't take up any control limit.

The Others are just complete bullshit in how they can control a virtually limitless number of Undead. A 20th level Dread Necromancer with Viserys level Charisma, access to the General of Undead spell, the Master of Undeath and Undead Leadership feats, and whatever other modifiers available which I can't recall at the moment, don't even come close to being able to control as many Undead as what a single Other has been shown capable of.
Because of this. The undead control limit is pretty arbitrary, as other PC followers have no such silly caps, and no bad guy ever abides by it.

It's just one of those silly "undead bad, mkay?" mechanics.
 
It's just one of those silly "undead bad, mkay?" mechanics.
It's meant to be game balance. All other methods of gathering followers are difficult and/or expensive, and sometimes even come with risks of your summoned cretures turning against you or callign in their buddies to punish you for binding them.
Meanwhile undead are the perfect servants : cheap, plentiful, disposable, easy to get (create spawn, etc). Therefore to avoid every single optimized player from being a Cleric with infinite undead minions, there's a cap.

Of course this is 3.5 and rules implementation (especially for Planar Binding, etc) is poor. But the design isn't "undead bad" and saying so seems disingenuous.
 
The Soulforged Template takes care of dead. These undead are docile and can be ordered around like constructs. They don't take up any control limit.
That is very nice. Is that explicitly mentioned in the Soulforged template? If so, it's just one more thing I've forgotten. :oops:
 
It's meant to be game balance. All other methods of gathering followers are difficult and/or expensive, and sometimes even come with risks of your summoned cretures turning against you or callign in their buddies to punish you for binding them.
Meanwhile undead are the perfect servants : cheap, plentiful, disposable, easy to get (create spawn, etc). Therefore to avoid every single optimized player from being a Cleric with infinite undead minions, there's a cap.

Of course this is 3.5 and rules implementation (especially for Planar Binding, etc) is poor. But the design isn't "undead bad" and saying so seems disingenuous.
Most powerful undead are sentient and thus can't be controlled by a PC in the first place while skeletons and zombies of high-CR stuff looses a lot of power in the conversion.

So you are less putting a cap on cheap Solars and more one on the number of low-level muggles you can hire.
 
That is very nice. Is that explicitly mentioned in the Soulforged template? If so, it's just one more thing I've forgotten. :oops:
Yes.


Delegated Control (Ex):
A Soulforged Undead is easier to control then regular undead. The owner can choose to have this creature not count towards his limit of controlled undead or give control over the creature to any other character, even characters who are normally unable to control undead creatures.
 
It's meant to be game balance. All other methods of gathering followers are difficult and/or expensive, and sometimes even come with risks of your summoned cretures turning against you or callign in their buddies to punish you for binding them.
Meanwhile undead are the perfect servants : cheap, plentiful, disposable, easy to get (create spawn, etc). Therefore to avoid every single optimized player from being a Cleric with infinite undead minions, there's a cap.

Of course this is 3.5 and rules implementation (especially for Planar Binding, etc) is poor. But the design isn't "undead bad" and saying so seems disingenuous.
Yeah, pretty much this.

If you want Tar-Baphon levels of Undead Doom Army hordes, you have to be ungodly powerful and willing to go all in; create powerful free-willed Undead who you command through fear, loyalty, or outright magic, then have them create their own minions, and so on and so forth, like a gigantic Undead pyramid scheme. And then that's when the Paladins and Crusaders start showing up to ruin your day.
 
Yeah, pretty much this.

If you want Tar-Baphon levels of Undead Doom Army hordes, you have to be ungodly powerful and willing to go all in; create powerful free-willed Undead who you command through fear, loyalty, or outright magic, then have them create their own minions, and so on and so forth, like a gigantic Undead pyramid scheme. And then that's when the Paladins and Crusaders start showing up to ruin your day.
At which point you are running a muggle state except everyone is a violent sociopath and everyone wants to murder you.

The game balance argument really doesn't pass the smell-test for me, unless you assume that realm building itself it not supposed to happen and this being the reason to limit undead.
 
Most powerful undead are sentient and thus can't be controlled by a PC in the first place while skeletons and zombies of high-CR stuff looses a lot of power in the conversion.

So you are less putting a cap on cheap Solars and more one on the number of low-level muggles you can hire.
Infinite Wights or Shadows are in fact stupidly powerful. I once ran a game with the Scarred Lands 3.0 third party books, and there's a level 3 spell there that lets a character get Shadows. Easy enough, right? Shouldn't be broken? A Cleric could Rebuke those at that level, after all.

Well the shadows were ABSOLUTE MURDER on literally everything I met until about level 12. Ignore terrain, hit touch AC, hard to kill, and kill anything in 2-4 strikes. And you could control a bunch at once! Most broken spell I'd ever seen. They even created their own spawn for the party Cleric, or for the days when something managed to kill them!

An evil Cleric who gets their hands on a shadow at that level (not impossible, a shadow is CR 3 and GMs could easily send them against you) has basically won the next five dungeons. Especially if you don't care about spawn somehow (you're immune and don't care about the collateral damage, for example. Or if your GM rules an undead can control its own spawn and you set up a pyramid structure).
 
Infinite Wights or Shadows are in fact stupidly powerful. I once ran a game with the Scarred Lands 3.0 third party books, and there's a level 3 spell there that lets a character get Shadows. Easy enough, right? Shouldn't be broken? A Cleric could Rebuke those at that level, after all.

Well the shadows were ABSOLUTE MURDER on literally everything I met until about level 12. Ignore terrain, hit touch AC, hard to kill, and kill anything in 2-4 strikes. And you could control a bunch at once! Most broken spell I'd ever seen. They even created their own spawn for the party Cleric, or for the days when something managed to kill them!

An evil Cleric who gets their hands on a shadow at that level (not impossible, a shadow is CR 3 and GMs could easily send them against you) has basically won the next five dungeons. Especially if you don't care about spawn somehow (you're immune and don't care about the collateral damage, for example. Or if your GM rules an undead can control its own spawn and you set up a pyramid structure).
Things are under-CRed and Wightpocalypses are bad. News at 11. :V

Joke aside though, as in all things, the DM should always use his class-feature Sanity Check.
 
Things are under-CRed and Wightpocalypses are bad. News at 11. :V

Joke aside though, as in all things, the DM should always use his class-feature Sanity Check.
I was GMing that game, actually, and I just shifted the setting discreetly. Of course if that spell was so easily available, then powerful people or organisations would try to have countermeasures!
But that only flew because I was nerfing my own GMPC (who was really just there to provide utility magic for the players, who had all picked martial classes until they all took Leadership at level 6 for Cleric or Wizard cohort-backup). In a normal campaign, doing this so systematically tends to just annoy the player in question.

Undead are strong and dangerous, and giving a player a control cap makes it a semi-balanced option. The good ones with create spawn risk forcing you to fight the spawn, and the intelligent ones who could control their own spawn are hard to control in the first place. Meanwhile the basic skellies or zombies are nothing but fodder. Fodder is certainly useful, but not a gamebreaking advantage.
 
Last edited:
@TalonofAnathrax, in my experience you have much different constraints for high-powered undead then the control limit. That mostly frustrates your efforts at having a few dumb skeletons patrolling your mansion and making a rucus when someone attacks them.
 
Inserted tally
Adhoc vote count started by DragonParadox on Dec 31, 2019 at 4:13 AM, finished with 98 posts and 9 votes.

  • [X] Check the Lys' Flesh-forge's Feywild reflection
    -[X] Call on the Orphne King and the Shrouded Lord to accompany you for this inspection and offer their insights
    -[X] See if Saenena, Qyburn, and the other Flesh Forgers have the time to visit as well to offer their own perspective on the mechanisms of this forge.
 
Part MMMCCLXIV: A Fruitful Realm
A Fruitful Realm

Twenty Ninth Day of the Eleventh Month 293 AC

The envoy had left, and the books set upon a shelf of high honor and no small secrecy in your library, but they would not be as secret as could be, on that you agree with Lya and Dany. No dark lore nor secret conjurations can be found within those tomes, no weapons of another age, only somber memories and in the end a glint of hope. A gift to the Empire they were and so you would pass it to the Empire's scholars, that something of what was lost might be remembered. You open the third volume again, the ghostly letters reflected not only in the eye but the mind itself, a bridge of perfect understanding... No, not yet, you decide. There would be time enough to read and reflect upon these later, for now concern of the present called on your time, albeit of a rather unusual sort.

***​

As morning is only just peeking over the silvery skyline of Lys, you, Dany, and Ser Richard, accompanied by Elaheh Marita draped in one of her subtler dresses and Maester Qyburn, or perhaps better to say Wisdom Qyburn for he had taken to wearing a robe befitting of his Scholarum rank, at least when in public, make your way through the city.

The five of you pass through what was once the Gilded District, though you suspect the name will not endure long. Although some of the priests have returned to their abandoned altars and a handful of new temples raised in thanks for deliverance from dark times, many more of the empty shops and houses had been filled by newly freed slaves who feared talk of lingering specters, of plague and curses, less than they did the memory of their bondage.

Perhaps unsurprisingly, the Great Tree and what had once been your embassy to the city had drawn many of these new inhabitants close, at first for the protection of the Legion and the blessings of the Old Gods, but now to take advantage of the presence of Scholarum sorcerers, low-ranked mages, and leshy spirits performing one task or another in the Forge. To your eyes, it looks like a piece of Sorcerer's Deep fallen in the middle of Lys, or perhaps a seed...

"I wonder what stories they tell..." Dany muses softly.

"Pardon?" the kyton apostle inquires.

To your surprise, it is Qyburn who answers. "Fey beings are living tales playing themselves out, eternal mummers and all the world their stage, yet it is mortals who write the script they must play out. So whatever awaits us behind the veil in the Feywild might draw as much from tales about the Forge as its own arcane nature."

"Fascinating, I have not encountered many of that kindred before coming to this realm. How does their flesh change when they exchange one mask for another, I wonder?" Elaheh asks, ever more intrigued.

"While mortals taken altogether may write the script the fey follow in tune with their desires, one should keep in mind the age of such spirits," you warn. "Only the newest lines are ones we are likely to recognize. Do not underestimate the fey or their realm of dreams and nightmares."

With these words, you cross the veil between the worlds, not in the whirl of sound and color that usually heralds passage, but in a subtle changing of the light. The air grows hushed, a subtle sweetness upon the tongue like honey and flowers. Well, you can imagine how so many who find themselves in this realm by accident might not even know the difference... that is until you raise your eyes.

The towers seem not of pale marble, but true silver glittering under the light of a false moon and witch stars, but it is the Great Tree itself that stands most changed in this realm. Gone is the pale bark, crimson leaves, and the straight trunk. Knotted is its wood, with the color that brings to mind oak and black willow, and bent like an old man leaning at the waist, and little wonder. Golden spheres, ranging in size from slightly smaller a man's head to larger than a horse, pulse with an inner light upon its branches while others grow from the earth all around it, like strange pumpkins upon knotted vines. Spirals of flickering golden sprites dance around the tree in patterns only they can guess at...


"Well, I guess we should go talk to them," Lya speaks up first, motioning to the sprites who seem wholly unconcerned at your appearance in their home. Before anyone can answer, the roots of the tree shift to reveal an opening beneath the trunk from which the sound of drums and flutes resounds. An invitation...

"Wait," you raise a hand to forestall the curious Qyburn from approaching one of the pods.

In a patch of gloom beneath the vine covered wall, the shadows twist and the Orphne Lord steps forth. The Hooded Lord had sent word that he could not make his way back to Lys in person, being too busy with arranging passage to other cities for the Goblin Market, but he had also sent word of what he knew of this corner of the Feywild: A place of new life, rancorous and bright in the hour of its making. Beware not malice, but rather the careless dancer's hand.

"The heart of the convergence is below, as in the mortal realms, but there is no ley line to follow here as a thread through the needle's eye. The chambers will be different," the lord of the shadow fey explains. "I would advise against partaking of food and drink, including anything you might pluck from the tree."

"You don't say," Dany says dryly, eyeing a 'fruit' twice as large as her.

What do you do?

[] Speak to the sprites
-[] Write in

[] Descend beneath the tree
-[] Write in

[] Write in


OOC: Ignore the person in the pic, the tree is important.
 
Last edited:
A Fruitful Realm

Twenty Ninth Day of the Eleventh Month 293 AC

The envoy had left, and the books set upon a shelf of high honor and no small secrecy in your library, but they would not be as secret as could be, on that you agree with Lya and Dany. No dark lore nor secret conjurations can be found within those tomes, no weapons of another age, only somber memories and in the end a glint of hope. A gift to the empire they were and so you would pass it to the empire's scholars, that something of what was lost might be remembered. You open the third volume again, the ghostly letters reflected not only in the eye but the mind itself, a bridge of perfect understanding... No, not yet, you decide. There would be time enough to read and reflect upon these later, for now concern of the present called on your time, albeit of a rather unusual sort.

***​

As morning is only just peeking over the silvery skyline of Lys, you, Dany, and Ser Richard, accompanied by Elaheh Marita draped in one of her subtler dresses and Maester Qyburn, or perhaps better to say Wisdom Qyburn for he had taken to wearing a robe befitting of his Scholarum rank, at least when in public, make your way through the city.

The five of you pass through what was once the Gilded District, though you suspect the name will not endure long. Although some of the priests have returned to their abandoned altars and a handful of new temples raised in thanks for deliverance from dark times, many more of the empty shops and houses had been filled by newly freed slaves who feared talk of lingering specters, of plague and curses, less than they did the memory of their bondage.

Perhaps unsurprisingly, the Great Tree and what had once been your embassy to the city had drawn many of these new inhabitants close, at first for the protection of the legion and the blessings of the Old Gods, but now to take advantage of the presence of Scholarum sorcerers, low mages, and leshy spirits performing one task or another in the forge. To your eyes, it looks like a piece of Sorcerer's Deep fallen in the middle of Lys, or perhaps a seed...

"I wonder what stories they tell..." Dany muses softly.

"Pardon?" the kyton apostle inquires.

To your surprise, it is Qyburn who answers. "Fey beings are living tales playing themselves out, eternal mummers and all the world their stage, yet it is mortals who write the script they must play out. So whatever awaits us behind the veil in the Feywyld might draw as much from tales about the forge as its own arcane nature."

"Fascinating, I have not encountered many of that kindred before coming to this realm. How does their flesh change when they exchange one mask for another, I wonder?" Elaheh asks, ever more intrigued.

"While mortals taken altogether may write the script the fey follow in tune with their desires, one should keep in mind the age of such spirits," you warn. "Only the newest lines are ones we are likely to recognize. Do not underestimate the fey or their realm of dreams and nightmares."

With these words, you cross the veil between the worlds, not in the whirl of sound and color that usually heralds passage, but in a subtle changing of the light. The air grows hushed, a subtle sweetness upon the tongue like honey and flowers. Well you can imagine how so many who find themselves in this realm by accident might not even know the difference... that is until you raise your eyes.

The towers seem not of pale marble, but true silver glittering under the light of false moon and witch stars, but it is the Great tree itself that stands most changed in this realm. Gone is the pale bark, crimson leaves, and the straight trunk. Knotted is its wood, with the color that brings to mind oak and black willow, and bent like an old man leaning at the waist, and little wonder. Golden spheres, ranging in size from slightly smaller a man's head to larger than a horse, pulse with an inner light upon its branches while others grow from the earth all around it, like strange pumpkins upon knotted vines. Spirals of flickering golden sprites dance around the tree in patterns only they can guess at...


"Well, I guess we should go talk to them," Lya speaks up first, motioning to the sprites who seem wholly unconcerned at your appearance in their home. Before anyone can answer, the roots of the tree shift to reveal an opening beneath the trunk from which the sound of drums and flutes resounds. An invitation...

"Wait," you raise a hand to forestall the curious Qyburn from approaching one of the pods.

In a patch of gloom beneath the vine covered wall, the shadows twist and the Orphne Lord steps forth. The Hooded Lord had sent word that he could not make his way back to Lys in person, being too busy with arranging passage to other cities for the Goblin Market, but he had also sent word of what he knew of this corner of the Feywyd: A place of new life, rancorous and bright in the hour of its making. Beware not malice, but rather the careless dancer's hand.

"The heart of the convergence is below, as in the mortal realms, but there is no ley line to follow here as a thread through the needle's eye. The chambers will be different," the lord of the shadow fey explains. "I would advise against partaking of food and drink, including anything you might pluck from the tree."

"You don't say," Dany says dryly, eyeing a 'fruit' twice as large as her.

What do you do?

[] Speak to the sprites
-[] Write in

[] Descend beneath the tree
-[] Write in

[] Write in


OOC: Ignore the person in the pic, the tree is important. Not yet edited.
Here's an edited version of the chapter, @DragonParadox.
 
Well then, let us put it in stone that this Tree and the Forge within it is OURS and the Old God's. So long as they understand that and keep their distance they could just burn in hell amidst their eternal dance for all I care.

(Yes, you can judge from the way I talk that I don't particularly like the Feys at all.)
 
Well then, let us put it in stone that this Tree and the Forge within it is OURS and the Old God's. So long as they understand that and keep their distance they could just burn in hell amidst their eternal dance for all I care.

(Yes, you can judge from the way I talk that I don't particularly like the Feys at all.)
:/
This is a poor precedent to set, because it means that mortals would have a claim to almost the entire Feywild. There's exactly zero chance of that being accepted by the locals, if they have the strength to resist.
 
:/
This is a poor precedent to set, because it means that mortals would have a claim to almost the entire Feywild. There's exactly zero chance of that being accepted by the locals, if they have the strength to resist.

Normally I would agree. But considering that the Feys have a close and potentially permanently altering influence on one of our TWO MAJOR Magical Infrastructure I tend to get twitchy. Also, especially it's because they're Fäe. (I despise their trickery and mind games. Blunt, succinct, and to the point like the Old Gods and Yss are my preference)
 
Normally I would agree. But considering that the Feys have a close and potentially permanently altering influence on one of our TWO MAJOR Magical Infrastructure I tend to get twitchy. Also, especially it's because they're Fäe. (I despise their trickery and mind games. Blunt, succinct, and to the point like the Old Gods and Yss are my preference)

The Old Gods are pretty fey themselves, they were woven from the minds of the Singers first and foremost and they are fey who loved the world too much to depart it.
 
We're here, so we might as well make the most of the opportunity.

[X] Speak to the Sprites
-[X] After attracting the attention of one or more Sprite, greet them politely and engage in what conversation they are willing to make. Try to learn what we can of these Sprites, the surrounding Feywild (not just the tree and its immediate environs), the reflection of the Great Heart Tree, and anything else they are willing to share that may be of interest.
-[X] In exchange if the Sprites ask of ourselves, share minor stories of our realm, some of the accomplishments of our vassals (especially Fey, such as Glyra and Moonsong), and perhaps even something about ourselves, though obviously nothing sensitive or of much greater worth (the kinds of tales we can use to make major purchases with powerful Fey).
 
At this a pleased glint enters Brynden Rivers's staring red eye: "So then, I am to be Master of Whisperers again sixty years after my exile. For once the taste of irony is sweet rather than bitter. I accept, Your Grace. Plant a sprig of weirwood in the false man's heart and I shall look through its eyes and speak through its lips at need."
There isn't a plan any time soon, but if we need to we can just arrange to meet "Varys".
I reckon that I will learn who "Varys" is soon enough, as I don't imagine you mean the Pseudodragon or the Spider.
Now I get it.
 
Last edited:
Back
Top