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A Sword Without a Hilt: A Song of Ice and Fire/D&D 3.5 Crossover

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No one deserves what hell and the abyss does to people. Being killed or erased I can understand, but fuck letting people's souls get taken apart for the sake of hypocritical gods and greedy fiends.

The pact Primeval is a travesty that proves that "Good" is more of a political alignment than a moral one, and taking part in it would be disgusting. The one silver lining in the mess made of the universe is that mortals finally get to be something other than morality pets and food.
 
BronzeTongue said:
No one deserves what hell and the abyss does to people. Being killed or erased I can understand, but fuck letting people's souls get taken apart for the sake of hypocritical gods and greedy fiends.

The pact Primeval is a travesty that proves that "Good" is more of a political alignment than a moral one, and taking part in it would be disgusting. The one silver lining in the mess made of the universe is that mortals finally get to be something other than morality pets and food.
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As a note most tellings of the tale agree that the gods of light where tricked into signing the Pact Primeval.
 
DragonParadox said:
A very good point, someone like a changeling literally does not have a set biological sex and yet they can play both roles. So what can you do literally force them into a single form when they want to get married? The Scholarum would rise a hue and cry over limiting natural magical abilities without due cause, the inquisition and the lawmen about extra pointless work. Obviously that's a no-go so then formally two people who might declare themselves of the same gender could be married.

What some people who are just vanilla humans used that opportunity to get married? Well we obviously can't discriminate against humans they are the majority
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I like how you sneak in a comment about how the magical academia demographic would LITERALLY RIOT over this, under the grounds that it would be infringing on the exercising of benign magical abilities. :lol:

I have the heart warming and I'm sure would be extremely confusing mental image of LGBT people watching the eccentric-to-borderline-unhinged professors in wizards robes picketing with them out in the streets.
 
BronzeTongue said:
No one deserves what hell and the abyss does to people. Being killed or erased I can understand, but fuck letting people's souls get taken apart for the sake of hypocritical gods and greedy fiends.

The pact Primeval is a travesty that proves that "Good" is more of a political alignment than a moral one, and taking part in it would be disgusting. The one silver lining in the mess made of the universe is that mortals finally get to be something other than morality pets and food.
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Still what you are proposing will eventually destroy the lower planes, by denying them the only ressource that truly matters to them.
As long as we are not absolutly 100% sure the lower planes are not somehow needed for the stability of the multiverse we should stay careful.

Edit: Best case would be that the Abyss keeps existing as some formless pit of pure Evil, without the need for mortal souls, but I'm not certain it works that way.
 
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Crake said:
I like how you sneak in a comment about how the magical academia demographic would LITERALLY RIOT over this, under the grounds that it would be infringing on the exercising of benign magical abilities. :lol:

I have the heart warming and I'm sure would be extremely confusing mental image of gay people watching the eccentric-to-borderline-unhinged professors in wizards robes picketing with them out in the streets.
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The mages protesting would have the best signs, too. Illusion magic, ya know? :V
 
Artemis1992 said:
I think we should wait a few years before making final decisions on this.

For example, if the current conflict with Asmodeus has escalated to the point of total war, he gets as few of those tasty little batteries we call souls as we can possibly manage.
If it has simmered down to some sort of cold war or uneasy peace, then it's propably not worth trying to break the First Pact over.
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Okay, fair enough -
What about souls who aren't bound for shitty gods or Lower Planes - but just gods we either don't know (we can't exclude the possibility), or haven't interacted with well enough to make them a part of our official Pantheon?
Just kick them in the general direction, and hope for the best?
BronzeTongue said:
No one deserves what hell and the abyss does to people. Being killed or erased I can understand, but fuck letting people's souls get taken apart for the sake of hypocritical gods and greedy fiends.

The pact Primeval is a travesty that proves that "Good" is more of a political alignment than a moral one, and taking part in it would be disgusting. The one silver lining in the mess made of the universe is that mortals finally get to be something other than morality pets and food.
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I'm just mostly afraid of fucking up the flow of souls and damaging the planes further if we make a mistake while forming the Imperial Deity - changing the rules on the go won't be easy for sure.
 
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Crake said:
I like how you sneak in a comment about how the magical academia demographic would LITERALLY RIOT over this, under the grounds that it would be infringing on the exercising of benign magical abilities. :lol:

I have the heart warming and I'm sure would be extremely confusing mental image of LGBT people watching the eccentric-to-borderline-unhinged professors in wizards robes picketing with them out in the streets.
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Also dragons, they would be on those picket lines because shape-stiffing for er... recreational purposes is quite common for them.
 
Crake said:
I like how you sneak in a comment about how the magical academia demographic would LITERALLY RIOT over this, under the grounds that it would be infringing on the exercising of benign magical abilities. :lol:

I have the heart warming and I'm sure would be extremely confusing mental image of LGBT people watching the eccentric-to-borderline-unhinged professors in wizards robes picketing with them out in the streets.
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Gender is a Transmutation!

DragonParadox said:
Also dragons, they would be on those picket lines because shape-stiffing for er... recreational purposes is quite common for them.
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Speaking of which. Rather than jumping right in, we could have someone interview interspecies couples and see how they are actually managing in the empire.
 
DragonParadox said:
As a note most tellings of the tale agree that the gods of light where tricked into signing the Pact Primeval.
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They were tricked into allowing good people to be tempted, but the whole point of the pact was that they wanted to outsource dealing with evil souls. They knew exactly how Hell was going to go about extracting power from them and decided it was okay because evil people deserved it.

They effectively decided a detect alignment spell was good enough to see who gets to go to paradise and who gets to be tortured until they dissolve into their constituent parts and form a mindless devil fetus with hundreds of other damned souls.
 

A simple template for mounts. You might even be able to just train this template into something.

Magebred Animal - Eberron Unlimited

eberronunlimited.wikidot.com eberronunlimited.wikidot.com

sites.google.com

Eberron Pathfinder - Magebred Animal

Magebred animals are near-perfect examples of their kind that have been carefully selected, bred and augmented through magic to enhance the abilities that make them useful to intelligent races. Chief among their traits is their universal aptitude for being trained without attaining a true
sites.google.com sites.google.com

A refinement of animal enhancement templates. Among other things, it fixes the creature's intelligence to 2, making it easier to template stack without accidentally creating a sapient being. It's the sort of thing Valyria would have, and it shouldn't be too big a research project if we don't have it already.
 
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"WE ARE WITH THE LITTLE ONES ON THIS, KING VISERYS!"

"Yes, Ysandrix, I hear you..."

"THE RAINBOW PARTY IS UNFAIR! THE HIGH SEPTON IS IN THERE! DETESTING OUR OBSESSION! PROFESSING HIS OPPRESSION!"

"Did you put her up to this?"

Dany, hesitating: "No... not that I remember."

Viserys, stink eye: "Oh?"

Dany, sweating: "Is that Amrelath?"

Viserys: "What the Devil?"

Amrelath wielding a sign, displaying 'FREE LOVE': "I stand with my brothers and sisters!"

"He does know we recognize him, right?"

Dany: "The beard and mustache, Viserys... the perfect disguise."
 
BronzeTongue said:
They were tricked into allowing good people to be tempted, but the whole point of the pact was that they wanted to outsource dealing with evil souls. They knew exactly how Hell was going to go about extracting power from them and decided it was okay because evil people deserved it.

They effectively decided a detect alignment spell was good enough to see who gets to go to paradise and who gets to be tortured until they dissolve into their constituent parts and form a mindless devil fetus with hundreds of other damned souls.
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More like they were convinced, that punishment was necessary to prevent mortals from sinning, they were convinced that Hell would scare the mortals straight, so only very few of them did the kind of evil leading to being sent to Hell, they knew the souls wouldn't deserve Hell, but they expected that the fear of Hell, would prevent at least 2 souls from falling to the Abyss, for every soul sent to Hell.

They probably didn't exactly read the fine print, about what kind of crimes could send you to Hell either, so they probably expected that only the worst of the worst, would be sent to the Hell, not that any kind of a jerk thief, might get sentenced to Hell, they thought that they were only signing over depraved murderers, rapists, and cultists, which they would still prefer not to be necessary, but they could agree to sacrifice, to save multiple times that number in souls tricked into working for the Abyss.

They thought they were only signing the worst of the worst over, and they thought the fear of punishment, would mean that the sum total of souls going to any of the lower planes would decrease.
 
See, this is the sort of discussion I knew we could have on these sorts of matters, sending out ideas and playing off each other to craft the options for the upcoming vote, talking things though if a productive and lighthearted way. We have been way too stressed out about 'salt' around here, myself very much included, but at the end of the day this is a fun place to hang out and enjoy shaping and experiencing the story we make together.
 
BronzeTongue said:
No one deserves what hell and the abyss does to people. Being killed or erased I can understand, but fuck letting people's souls get taken apart for the sake of hypocritical gods and greedy fiends.

The pact Primeval is a travesty that proves that "Good" is more of a political alignment than a moral one, and taking part in it would be disgusting. The one silver lining in the mess made of the universe is that mortals finally get to be something other than morality pets and food.
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Even when the Imperial God comes online that is not a bear we want to provoke. We're currently skidding by on the fact that the Dukes of Hell and the Archfiends of the Abyss aren't all united against us. If we pull something like keeping back every single soul from them, even the ones that in your own words are cosplaying as demons while having a choice, we will be staring at an army we couldn't hope to challenge and will be executing evacuation measures.

Yes, the Abyss and Hell and Abaddon are bad, but the idea of challenging them all at once is so brazenly suicidal that it should be shot down.

EDIT: There's also the fact that even the Lower Planes are still part of the universe, and chipping away at those foundations is decidedly less than wise.
 
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tarrangar said:
More like they were convinced, that punishment was necessary to prevent mortals from sinning, they were convinced that Hell would scare the mortals straight, so only very few of them did the kind of evil leading to being sent to Hell, they knew the souls wouldn't deserve Hell, but they expected that the fear of Hell, would prevent at least 2 souls from falling to the Abyss, for every soul sent to Hell.

They probably didn't exactly read the fine print, about what kind of crimes could send you to Hell either, so they probably expected that only the worst of the worst, would be sent to the Hell, not that any kind of a jerk thief, might get sentenced to Hell, they thought that they were only signing over depraved murderers, rapists, and cultists, which they would still prefer not to be necessary, but they could agree to sacrifice, to save multiple times that number in souls tricked into working for the Abyss.

They thought they were only signing the worst of the worst over, and they thought the fear of punishment, would mean that the sum total of souls going to any of the lower planes would decrease.
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I don't think that how evil the people they handed over were really matters. I can get erasing someone for being too dangerous to allow to exist, or killing someone for similar reasons. I can even accept benefiting from those things as we do with sacrifice. I don't believe that torture as a form of punishment or as a fear tactic deserves any place in a legal code.

Doesn't Heaven making use of such tactics through a second party that they simultaneously decry for those acts strike you as hypocritical?


Crake said:
"WE ARE WITH THE LITTLE ONES ON THIS, KING VISERYS!"

"Yes, Ysandrix, I hear you..."

"THE RAINBOW PARTY IS UNFAIR! THE HIGH SEPTON IS IN THERE! DETESTING OUR OBSESSION! PROFESSING HIS OPPRESSION!"

"Did you put her up to this?"

Dany, hesitating: "No... not that I remember."

Viserys, stink eye: "Oh?"

Dany, sweating: "Is that Amrelath?"

Viserys: "What the Devil?"

Amrelath wielding a sign, displaying 'FREE LOVE': "I stand with my brothers and sisters!"

"He does know we recognize him, right?"

Dany: "The beard and mustache, Viserys... the perfect disguise."
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Wait, if the Seven already have rainbows, what is the Planetosi pride flag?
 
Okay, here's a basic framework for us to work within for tomorrow's vote.

If 50% of assets going to heirs is too little or too much, we can adjust it. If 10% going to the state for Reincarnated folks who have no heirs is too little or too much, we can adjust it. Same goes for the maximum amount owed to the state after multiple Reincarnations with no legal heir.

As for marriage, I hope we can keep it simple, but I'm prepared to compromise if that's what it takes.

[] Marriage, Death, and Taxes
-[] Inheritance Taxes:
--[] Upon Reincarnation not sanctioned by the Imperium*, 80% of the value of one's estate is to be distributed to one's heirs after any outstanding debts have been settled.
---[] In instances where the Reincarnated subject and his or her heirs are unable to agree upon the division of non-monetary assets, an impartial mediator will by appointed by the Imperium to oversee arbitration between the involved parties. Mediators will have binding authority to divide non-monetary assets should arbitration fail.
---[] The assets a Reincarnated subject retains or accumulates after Reincarnation are not subject to further division among previous heirs, though any heirs produced following the latest Reincarnation do so benefit.
--[] Upon Reincarnation not sanctioned by the Imperium*, 20% of the value of one's estate is to be paid as a tax to the Imperium should the Reincarnated subject have no living heirs.
---[] Upon subsequent instances of Reincarnation without an heir, the rate of taxation will increase in 20% increments, to a maximum tax rate per Reincarnation of 8% of total assets.
--[] *State-sanctioned Reincarnation includes any instance of an individual being Reincarnated after falling in service to the Imperium as part of their assigned duties.
-[] Marriage:
--[] Marriage is defined as the legal union between two or more consenting parties, each of of whom is considered an adult of their species by Imperial law.
---[] In addition to being of age, to be considered capable of giving consent one must be free of magical compulsion or possession, and of sufficient intelligence (i.e. sentience) to comprehend the basic legal obligations inherent to the marriage contract.
 
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Duesal said:
Even when the Imperial God comes online that is not a bear we want to provoke. We're currently skidding by on the fact that the Dukes of Hell and the Archfiends of the Abyss aren't all united against us. If we pull something like keeping back every single soul from them, even the ones that in your own words are cosplaying as demons while having a choice, we will be staring at an army we couldn't hope to challenge and will be executing evacuation measures.

Yes, the Abyss and Hell and Abaddon are bad, but the idea of challenging them all at once is so brazenly suicidal that it should be shot down.

EDIT: There's also the fact that even the Lower Planes are still part of the universe, and chipping away at those foundations is decidedly less than wise.
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The thing is, even if we had all of Planetos we'd only have a drop in the bucket of all mortals souls. Yss probably had more snakefolk in his divine realm at the time of his fall than we have people on the planet right now. Rhllor is a LE god who presumably takes mortal souls to his plane, and he isn't considered to be a dire threat by Hell.

By the time we're big enough that our soul retention plan is a blip on Hell's radar we'll be powerful enough to sit at the adult's table of the cosmos and revisit the issue with them.
 
Goldfish said:
Okay, here's a basic framework for us to work within for tomorrow's vote.

If 50% of assets going to heirs is too little or too much, we can adjust it. If 10% going to the state for Reincarnated folks who have no heirs is too little or too much, we can adjust it. Same goes for the maximum amount owed to the state after multiple Reincarnations with no legal heir.

As for marriage, I hope we can keep it simple, but I'm prepared to compromise if that's what it takes.

[] Marriage, Death, and Taxes
-[] Inheritance Taxes:
--[] Upon Reincarnation not sanctioned by the Imperium*, 50% of the value of one's estate is to be distributed to one's heirs after any outstanding debts have been settled.
---[] In instances where the Reincarnated subject and his or her heirs are unable to agree upon the division of non-monetary assets, an impartial mediator will by appointed by the Imperium to oversee arbitration between the involved parties. Mediators will have binding authority to divide non-monetary assets should arbitration fail.
---[] The assets a Reincarnated subject retains or accumulates after Reincarnation are not subject to further division among previous heirs, though any heirs produced following the latest Reincarnation do so benefit.
--[] Upon Reincarnation not sanctioned by the Imperium*, 10% of the value of one's estate is to be paid as a tax to the Imperium should the Reincarnated subject have no living heirs.
---[] Upon subsequent instances of Reincarnation without an heir, the rate of taxation will increase in 10% increments, to a maximum tax rate per Reincarnation of 50% of total assets.
--[] *State-sanctioned Reincarnation includes any instance of an individual being Reincarnated after falling in service to the Imperium as part of their assigned duties.
-[] Marriage:
--[] Marriage is defined as the legal union between two or more consenting parties, each of of whom is considered an adult of their species by Imperial law.
---[] In addition to being of age, to be considered capable of giving consent one must be free of magical compulsion or possession, and of sufficient intelligence (i.e. sentience) to comprehend the basic legal obligations inherent to the marriage contract.
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I honestly still think the "new life - new everything" is a better/simpler way to do Reincarnation.
Have some basic capital given to anyone doing Reincarnation - the rest being completely distributed as appropriate between Imperium/heirs.
 
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BronzeTongue said:
The thing is, even if we had all of Planetos we'd only have a drop in the bucket of all mortals souls. Yss probably had more snakefolk in his divine realm at the time of his fall than we have people on the planet right now. Rhllor is a LE god who presumably takes mortal souls to his plane, and he isn't considered to be a dire threat by Hell.

By the time we're big enough that our soul retention plan is a blip on Hell's radar we'll be powerful enough to sit at the adult's table of the cosmos and revisit the issue with them.
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Boy, would I pay to be the fly on the wall in that board meeting...
 
BronzeTongue said:
The thing is, even if we had all of Planetos we'd only have a drop in the bucket of all mortals souls. Yss probably had more snakefolk in his divine realm at the time of his fall than we have people on the planet right now. Rhllor is a LE god who presumably takes mortal souls to his plane, and he isn't considered to be a dire threat by Hell.

By the time we're big enough that our soul retention plan is a blip on Hell's radar we'll be powerful enough to sit at the adult's table of the cosmos and revisit the issue with them.
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When we're strong enough to have that meeting then fine, but realistically that's not going to be for a very long time.
 
egoo said:
I honestly still think the "new life - new everything" is a better/simpler way to do Reincarnation.
Have some basic capital given to anyone doing Reincarnation - the rest being distributed as appropriate between Imperium/heirs.
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The problem with taxation avoidance is that the corruption inherent in the system, both of institutions of legislation and of finance, are too permissive of perpetuation of one's not paying of their 'fair share', as determined by the majority yes.

The Imperium has certain controls over both legislation and finance that acts as an effective cap for tax evasion schemes. If you go above that cap, you don't really have the same legal recourse to make acquiring those taxes more trouble than they are legitimately worth.
 
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