Again, I only wanted to talk to them and see if they'd honor their vows and obey our laws. If the answer turns out to be no, and it very well might, I'll support tossing them into the pile.
You don't need to argue me further, I already said I'll add the biggest Asurenda there to our check-list.
I'm just expressing doubt on practicality of looting it - for now, since it's too soon to either grab it or forego doing that - haven't even seen if we can grab it indeed.

I'm also against it for OOC reasons : it would take an update or two and I don't want to even read about that at this point.
...Yeah, alright, this is one such thing I kinda agree on.
@Duesal, you'll be okay doing this OOC?

Feels like everyone wants the month to be over sooner at this point.
 
@Duesal, I'm also against it for OOC reasons : it would take an update or two and I don't want to even read about that at this point.

Furthermore, note that becoming precog-immune is easy enough here : simply base your decision on our actions. "I'll only do disloyal things on days where I see Viserys touch his hands together" or something.
...Yeah, alright, this is one small thing I kinda agree on.
@Duesal, you'll be okay doing this OOC?

Feels like everyone wants the month to be over sooner at this point.
I wouldn't mind it becoming a background action that isn't covered on screen at all, I mainly just care about DP's acknowledgement that yes, we've spoken to it, and this is what it says and this is what the divinations say.
Furthermore, note that becoming precog-immune is easy enough here : simply base your decision on our actions. "I'll only do disloyal things on days where I see Viserys touch his hands together" or something.
I feel like a regular divination can pick up on that. "Does the Asura in front of me intend to betray me or break my laws at any point in its service?"

If the answer is yes? To the tree. I won't argue at all.
 
*checks notes*

I do have a tradition of Valyrian bards penciled in at Oros so they would know the magic, on the other hand bards would try to stay far away fro the flesh-smiths

*rolls*

Unfortunately you do not have that template.

Well that is a RIP. Quick to the divination chamber. Divine us such a creature. No I am serious. there is a lot of templates I want and it is an easy enough mission.

Edit: And I am talking to the thread. Not to you DP.
 
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I feel like a regular divination can pick up on that. "Does the Asura in front of me intend to betray me or break my laws at any point in its service?"
And if he doesnt intend to at that moment but has no strong feelings regarding betrayal one way or the other?

Divination isnt some absolute prophecy of a future. Honestly we justify too much stuff with 'backgrounded' already.

And not being tied to a lower plane anymore doesnt make you a decent person. Honestly it doesnt do a thing other than remove alignment restrictions on the things you get. Mindless destruction cant really be called worse than Mindfull malice.

And covering over all the problems under 'backgrounded' really does bug me. Its like signing Hannibal Lecters immigration and work papers and saying it's perfectly fine because some functionary will check a video camera on him then and again.
 
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*checks notes*

I do have a tradition of Valyrian bards penciled in at Oros so they would know the magic, on the other hand bards would try to stay far away fro the flesh-smiths

*rolls*

Unfortunately you do not have that template.
They were the Dragonsingers, right? Like Rhaella's class. Dilettante Valyrian Skalds basically, who navigated viper pits with ease and were politically untouchable because they were living archives of sonnets, sagas and ballads and had great stores of political capital from their cultural efforts?
 
And if he doesnt intend to at that moment but has no strong feelings regarding betrayal one way or the other?

Divination isnt some absolute prophecy of a future. Honestly we justify too much stuff with 'backgrounded' already.

And not being tied to a lower plane anymore doesnt make you a decent person. Honestly it doesnt do a thing other than remove alignment restrictions on the things you get. Mindless destruction cant really be called worse than Mindfull malice.

And covering over all the problems under 'backgrounded' really does bug me.
If he betrays us his soul is forfeit, and we hunt him down and toss him to Yss. That's always been the deal. Part of this is getting his True Name. These guys aren't morons, they're not going to randomly betray someone with the power to immediately bind them and utterly end them.

As for being a decent person, no, severing the connection to the Abyss it doesn't guarantee being a decent person. It doesn't matter if they are. What matters is that they tend to be smart enough to recognize that they've got a good deal, and recognize the consequences if they fuck it up. Evil outsiders aren't mindlessly destructive or slaves to their impulses.

Regarding background, we'll have to agree to disagree. We've set things up so that large swaths of the Imperium can run autonomously, including keeping tabs on the fiends.
 
If he betrays us his soul is forfeit, and we hunt him down and toss him to Yss. That's always been the deal. Part of this is getting his True Name. These guys aren't morons, they're not going to randomly betray someone with the power to immediately bind them and utterly end them.

As for being a decent person, no, severing the connection to the Abyss it doesn't guarantee being a decent person. It doesn't matter if they are. What matters is that they tend to be smart enough to recognize that they've got a good deal, and recognize the consequences if they fuck it up. Evil outsiders aren't mindlessly destructive or slaves to their impulses.

Regarding background, we'll have to agree to disagree. We've set things up so that large swaths of the Imperium can run autonomously, including keeping tabs on the fiends.
Death threats and promises of retaliation. Things Hell, the Abyss and Efreeti have never tried before obviously. And really these are things that are made to push those kinda of boundaries for all they are worth. All for background effort and background benefits for a couple more 'meh' quality troops in the roster.

At some point you just have to stop considering the background effort that would go into them as not relevant because they dont have effects on the spreadsheets.

Just because we dont see or feel the cost doesnt mean we shouldn't consider what it would be. At some point you just gotta wonder if the coin would be cheaper. Money versus risk of background pain and worry for people.

A Asura decides to say fuck it one day and take a town with him before we find out and take him down. What's the cost of that versus just paying that 5k in spreadsheet money instead of 'background' labour and effort for a creature that would willingly and resolutely protect that town with its life?

It's just whether you want to pay in GDP or Tax Revenue.
 
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I see Fiend recruitment the same way I do Fractional Banking. Sure it looks great on paper but is the risk of people being fucked if somebody gets just a bit too greedy worth padding up that spreadsheet?
 
Death threats and promises of retaliation. Things Hell, the Abyss and Efreeti have never tried before obviously. And really these are things that are made to push those kinda of boundaries for all they are worth. All for background effort and background benefits for a couple more 'meh' quality troops in the roster.

At some point you just have to stop considering the background effort that would go into them as not relevant because they dont have effects on the spreadsheets.

Just because we dont see or feel the cost doesnt mean we shouldn't consider what it would be. At some point you just gotta wonder if the coin would be cheaper. Money versus risk of background pain and worry for people.
First off, the Asuras aren't "meh". They might not be minimaxed to the point of ridiculousness, but they certainly aren't subpar. Second, yes, death threats and retaliation is something they're familiar with, which is why it happens to work. It effectively keeps the relevant parties in line. Third, in spite of your claims, the background can and has been handling it properly.
A Asura decides to say fuck it one day and take a town with him before we find out and take him down. What's the cost of that versus just paying that 5k in spreadsheet money instead of 'background' labour and effort for a creature that would willingly and resolutely protect that town with its life?

It's just whether you want to pay in GDP or Tax Revenue.
I see Fiend recruitment the same way I do Fractional Banking. Sure it looks great on paper but is the risk of people being fucked if somebody gets just a bit too greedy worth padding up that spreadsheet?
Okay, I had a feeling at first, but this confirms it. Fiends aren't ticking time bombs waiting to explode, @Abhishek M. They should be judged individually, not as a collective. If a particular fiend isn't worth making an offer to after we check it then fine, but acting like all of them as a whole want nothing more than to go on a rampage is something I don't agree with.

Personally I'm happy we've been getting those demons. They've got some really neat and useful abilities, and I have little doubt the Barghests in particular have been put to use in the Inquisition.
 
Fiends aren't ticking time bombs waiting to explode, @Abhishek M. They should be judged individually, not as a collective. If a particular fiend isn't worth making an offer to after we check it then fine, but acting like all of them as a whole want nothing more than to go on a rampage is something I don't agree with.

Personally I'm happy we've been getting those demons. They've got some really neat and useful abilities, and I have little doubt the Barghests in particular have been put to use in the Inquisition.
They arent ticking and I am not saying they are but they still are bombs Duesal. That means tracking, maintenance and disposal if something happens. That's not free or effortless.

My entire point here is not that they will all betray us in the end. But that we cant just keep saying background cost for their handling and not wonder if it isnt inefficient.

Whether you think its unneeded or not. We do have tracking and divining right now. And they are the kind of being for whom that is both warranted and some less than ideal behaviour is expected.

That implies a cost. Would that cost be cheaper that something built specifically for those desired capabilities? If so would the difference in money saved be worth the additional risk and liabilities from their employment.

If not is the tracked government money and labour saved by offloading it to the untracked revenue and labour stream cost effective?

Simplistically it really is just a question of are they worth the additional hassle of not just growing better troops just because its somebody else's problem. Or atleast does that make us a bit of a dick for doing it this way.

Lastly I really just dont care about this honestly. Its numbers on a sheet to me. But you asked and I answered. I really dont mind it either way @Duesal. I'm just taking this like general discussion not some contested vote. Sorry if it came out as otherwise.

TL DR: Felt like discussing our hiring practices like a quest analog for bureaucratic mismanagement and government inefficiency. Reader discretion is advised.
 
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They arent ticking and I am not saying they are but they still are bombs Duesal. That means tracking, maintenance and disposal if something happens. That's not free or effortless.

My entire point here is not that they will all betray us in the end. But that we cant just keep saying background cost for their handling and not wonder if it isnt inefficient.

Whether you think its unneeded or not. We do have tracking and divining right now. And they are the kind of being for whom that is both warranted and some less than ideal behaviour is expected.

That implies a cost. Would that cost be cheaper that something built specifically for those desired capabilities? If so would the difference in money saved be worth the additional risk and liabilities from their employment.

If not I'd the tracked government money and labour saved by offloading it to the untracked revenue and labour stream cost effective?
And I continue to maintain that the Imperium is perfectly capable of handling this in the background. Not only have the fiends by and large not been an issue, but the House of Mirrors is efficient enough to handle those deemed requiring oversight.
Simplistically it really is just a question of are the worth the hassle of not just growing better troops just because its somebody else's problem. Or atleast does that make us a bit of a dick for doing it this way.
This is where we disagree the most. To me they're worth the attempt because you believe there's way more effort being put into monitoring them than I do. The fiends aren't constantly looking for a chance to betray us or break our laws, there are plenty of perfectly legal activities they can partake in to stay entertained. There's a reason we haven't had problems with the ones we've recruited so far. Sorcerer's Deep happens to be just as fun for them as it is for mortals.
Lastly I really just dont care about this honestly. Its numbers on a sheet to me. But you asked and I answered. I really dont mind it either way @Duesal. I'm just taking this like general discussion not some contested vote. Sorry if it came out as otherwise.
Just because you didn't directly quote me at first doesn't mean you weren't responding to me, let's not pretend I was dragging this out of you.
 
I don't see the justifications for the concern. I'm pushing specifically to see if they're recruitable, not to blindly recruit them. This would include making sure they would obey our laws, doing everything in our power to bind them to their word, etc. If the interrogation and divinations reveal they would be trouble, to the tree they go.

What are people afraid of that would somehow hide from our divinations and interrogations? These guys don't have Mind Blank.

They might have their own goals but it's not like they can't be reasoned with. We've got living proof that Outsiders are capable of change if given enough incentive. More to the point, even if they're mercenary that doesn't mean they immediately stab a pre-existing contract in the back. Not only would nobody bother hiring them if they did that, we can divine on whether or not they would. Again. No Mind Blank is here to stop us.

It's worth it to me.
Okay, let's check it out then. No reason that can't be a background action.

We all have our pet projects and I won't begrudge you this one, dude. If it works out, that's cool, and if it doesn't, they can be sacrifice fodder. It's a win win scenario.
"Thou ssshalt possst new persssonalsss on Ssssnake'ssslissst."
I just about hurt myself due to this post, dude. I'm on coffee #4 so far today and laughed so hard I almost spilled the whole thing on myself. :oops:
 
Just because you didn't directly quote me at first doesn't mean you weren't responding to me, let's not pretend I was dragging this out of you.
I'll be honest man. I really did have to see whose quote mentione me to see you point and add that part. Call it a difference in perspective from a guy with a Masters degree in Financial Analytics.

Right now I'm working on the report graphs to let a manager see employee performances on their tablet. And between deciding whether a line graph of a teams completed tasks over time or as a pie chart showing their overall performance would be better to make 'ehm!' management decisions on the members I decided to blog a bit. Decided on reasoning out what the actual cost of some of the stuff we dont track would be and decided to post on debating between 'cutting the fiendish fat' versus the cost of 'going green'.

Sorry if it came off as anything like an attack.

Edit: I decided on letting them toggle between both based on their preferences by the way. For anyone interested.
 
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Interlude DCLXXIV: A Prince No More
A Prince No More

Twenty Seventh Day of the Eleventh Month 293 AC

Sorcerer's Deep


The offices of Silver Serpent Enterprises were filed with the comings and goings of high and low, local and foreigner alike, and some of those foreigners were very foreign indeed, Oread merchants with hair of crystal looking to partner up in the hopes of acquiring some rare arcane reagents, djinn travelers looking for an account of 'the most interesting places around' to adventure in, shadow fey looking to sell strange and wondrous workings for prices that would drive a sensible Braavosi accountant frothing at the mouth.

Yet the dark-haired young man who was by the side door that evening was neither genie nor genie-kin, he was not even a shadow fey of the Orphne, but a far rarer soul, a child of two natures, a changeling almost-prince. He'd spent the day helping to mediate disputes, for though he did not have much of a head for numbers the knight was skilled indeed at getting people of all sorts to see the other side of a dispute so long as they had the goodwill to make the attempt. You would not have caught the true Renly Baratheon dead doing some tawdry merchant's dealings, which was the reason he had started working here. Well, that and the fact that he wanted to have something that was his and not just the coin Stannis had let him take with him to keep up the mummery or the enchanted gifts of the Dragon King meant to help keep him alive. A month's pay was not much by the standards he was used to maintaining, but that handful of silver was worth more to him than all the gold in Storm's End.

I could live like this, the young man realized with a start as gentle rain began to sift down from on high, the light of fading sunset caught in every droplet. I don't have to go after him. The thought was a relief, one more real choice for him to make, yet as he considered the matter he found his resolve undiminished, perhaps even stronger as flame forges iron into steel. He would do this not because of some cosmic symmetry, some desperate half understood yearning, but because Stannis deserved answers and because he deserved answers too. And of course, if I choose any differently I would likely never hear the end of it....

As though the amused thought had conjured it from the ether a bright childish voice called from his left. "So what taverns are we trying out today boss?"

The speaker was a towheaded headed lad who looked at least eight years too young to have anything to do with a tavern, but in this, as in many other things, looks could be deceiving. Venny was a gremlin, an erinat of the new breed, redeemed of malice, but no less eager for mistchief and adventure than any of his kind. Renly had not so much recruited him as mentioned his quest in his earshot once thus leading to the little fey proclaiming his intention to accompany him on the spot. One could not ask for more enthusiastic support.

"I'm still looking for a strong warrior to serve as a bulwark," the knight replied as his steps led him deeper into what was commonly known as Battle Ward, for the Circle of Battle at its heart. There weren't any night fights scheduled for today but the taverns were more likely to see giant and minotaur patrons around there as well. The tavern keepers were less skittish around their great strength and more likely to make them feel at home.

"I think we should look for a wizard first, boss, I'm mean sure you've got some magic, but it's all glamour and enchantment, not the best for daring the Feywild where everyone has those sorts of tricks," Venny said not for the first time.

"I prefer to speak to King Viserys before proposing the task to any of his mages," Renly replied. "They are all so young..."

"You know you are less than five years old, right?" the gremlin snickered. "That's a dangerous age to be going on a dangerous adventure."

So it was still bantering back and forth that the knight and the mischief-maker walked into the smokey common room of the Dragon's Tooth, but the person on whom the knight's eyes fell was not a minotaur, he was not even a stone giant, but a warrior with skin pale as the winter sky and a bristling frost touched beard.

"Can I pet the dog, boss?" Venny asked. "Look at him, so fluffy and sweet, sleeping with his tongue out."

"I think that is a wolf, not a dog, best be careful," Renly pointed out, a fact for which he was very glad when the giant wolf-creature opened disconcertingly sharp eyes and growled.

"Touch me and you'll lose a hand."

The giant snorted in amusement. "Don't mind Gorun, he's had a bit too much Tyroshi strongwine. Pull up a chair small one, let's hear this story of yours."

It took all his skill and every argument he could truthfully muster, but in the end Renly managed to convince the giant if not the wolf-kin to follow him into the Feywild if the Dragon King would allow it while under contract. Probably for the best if he wanted to keep Venny outside the wolf's stomach.

OOC: Hopefully the end is not too abrupt. It's getting late and I did not feel like writing out the specific diplomacy would add that much to the chapter when Renly's inner struggle is the core of it.
 
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A Fey Princeling, a Dawnkin Gremlin, a Frost Giant, and a wolf-creature whose nature I forget.

Now they just need a mage and maybe a free Leshy druid and they'll be set.
 
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