Generally speaking, draconic and fire based templates can be assumed to be available,as can templates that would enhance charisma and synergize well with sorcery

Actually this is interesting. Enhance Charisma meaning that the Bard template is available in the forge. I am going to assume we have the other martial templates in the forge till told otherwise as DP okayed the vote for that Rogue template creature.
 
[X] Crake

Also any tips on how a Level 7 Party could possibly take on a Juvenile to Adult Blue Dragon? My DM wants to amp things up even more. Apparently two Peluda at once wasn't enough. More relevant to this Quest, they actually seem to be a fairly decent chassis with nice poison. (And yes DC 20 Fort is actually really tough for our squishies to meet.)
 
[X] Crake

Also any tips on how a Level 7 Party could possibly take on a Juvenile to Adult Blue Dragon? My DM wants to amp things up even more. Apparently two Peluda at once wasn't enough. More relevant to this Quest, they actually seem to be a fairly decent chassis with nice poison. (And yes DC 20 Fort is actually really tough for our squishies to meet.)

What is your party? If DM plays it straight, as a consumate planner with more experience than your entire group put together, competent minions, clever tactics and MONEY:YES, you basically have no chance.

If, however, such sees a cool Statblock and runs it as is heedless of context (as I sadly witness many people doing), it is actually fairly viable. Not easy, but can envision some coherent plans of action able to succeed.

Edit: Do you peeps have access to UMD?
Edit2: Statblock is actually wrong in some respects, what with one feat not meeting prerequisites.
 
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[X] Crake

Also any tips on how a Level 7 Party could possibly take on a Juvenile to Adult Blue Dragon? My DM wants to amp things up even more. Apparently two Peluda at once wasn't enough. More relevant to this Quest, they actually seem to be a fairly decent chassis with nice poison. (And yes DC 20 Fort is actually really tough for our squishies to meet.)
If it's an adult blue dragon, my advice is that you look into buying weighted dices, preferably both for you and your DM, if you are playing with dice that roll criticals most of the time, and your DM has dices that roll critical failures most of the time, you might have a chance.:p
 
Winning vote
Adhoc vote count started by DragonParadox on Dec 10, 2019 at 2:13 PM, finished with 72 posts and 10 votes.

  • [X] "Most people south of the Wall would like the shirt off your back, if only to stick a blade into it more surely, that is true, but then when two sides have been bleeding each other for thousands of years for all manner of slights or for survival..." You trail off. Part of you quails at the notion that raiding to survive would ever be viable under any circumstances, but the circumstances of the Mountain Clans and the Free Folk are such that they could never come down from their snow drifts or their fields of ice, not without being killed for ancient grudges and longstanding feuds. Given a generation you could make the lands north of the wall a rich one, with enough magic and enough hands, but you do not have that time. Winter is coming.
    -[X] "But those oaths of vengeance do not exist in my own lands, nor do your enemies. If you should bring your people together to flee aboard my ships, I can feed them, clothe them, provide them with ample productive work with which to enrich themselves, and they shan't be viewed as beggars or vagabonds or raiders ill-wanted, they will just be one among the many other peoples moving across my realm to better livelihoods."
    -[X] More stonily: "They need merely follow the law, like all others." When Mance protests, point out that he has been south of the Wall and he has studied the capacity to harm that the North alone has. If it was ever in such dire straights that it could not strike back against an army led by Mance, he would swiftly have to lead it south of the Neck, filled with yet more hostility, only now he would bring Winter's host at its back swollen with the dead.
    -[X] "The Free Folk have never had the opportunity to grow cultural mores like that of even the men of Thenn who already swear me oaths of fealty in exchange for a lord's protection. They had to fight and scramble for survival each day, some more than others, but all sizing up their neighbors to seize what they have managed to gain. Given a decade living off the ample fat of the land, in Essos or even in Westeros, that wouldn't be likely to change without some degree of force, but after a generation or two? Your people would look to leaders like Kings, and those Kings would have riches and armies and force the rest to bow to them. Either they would be killed by those tribes and chiefs, who would then scatter in an unknown land and be simple prey to other realms, broken men and a broken people. Or the people would bow." You think of the Tritons and their circumstances. They have already made moves to swear their spears to you, and their way endured countless generations because they were a migratory people who did not bed down in one place for long. Eventually either their council would have manifested itself similar to that of Myr, always a first among equals to reign it in, or a leader would have risen.
    -[X] "I can help your people skip those steps, ensure you do not have to struggle just for basic survival. But only if they all meet me half way."
 
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Part MMMCCXXIV: King's Counsel
King's Counsel

Twenty Fifth Day of the Eleventh Month 293 AC

"Most people south of the Wall would like the shirt off your back, if only to stick a blade into it more surely, that is true, but then when two sides have been bleeding each other for thousands of years for all manner of slights or for survival..." You trail off. The notion that raiding to survive would ever be viable is repugnant, but the circumstances of the Mountain Clans and the Free Folk are such that they could never come down from their snow drifts or their fields of ice, not without being killed for ancient grudges and longstanding feuds. Given a generation you could make the lands north of the Wall a rich one, with enough magic and enough hands, but you do not have that time. The Stark words have never been truer, Winter is coming.

"Slights..." Mance laughs, but it is far from a happy sound. "Aye, that's one way to put it, but we didn't steal apples out of trees in flower, nor break their fences. Raiding is about making it so the Southerners are the ones to starve in our place. Every raider who isn't a fool or a half-grown child drunk with tales of glory knows that much."

"But those oaths of vengeance do not exist in my own lands, nor do your enemies," you point out, glad to see him treat the matter with due gravity. "If you should bring your people together to flee aboard my ships, I can feed them, clothe them, provide them with ample productive work with which to enrich themselves, and they shan't be viewed as beggars or vagabonds or raiders ill-wanted, they will just be one among the many other peoples moving across my realm to better livelihoods."

"Ah, but you see that is the trouble," Mance shakes his head. "You are a king like Andals, maybe like the Valyrians too, I know little of their songs and tales. A good king cares for his smallfolk, yes?"

"That is the point of kingship, to lead wisely and see the people prosper," you reply, though you have an inkling of what his point might be.

"The Free Folk are usually short of tools, often short of food, but we are never short of pride. Kneelers we call those south of the Wall because they fall to their knees arms outstretched for their lords to save them. It's a damn fool thing, most kneelers eat better, live longer and probably better than us. If I'd had a choice to run south without losing my head to some lord's axe I would have thought about it long and hard..."

Yara's eyes widen on shock at the confession, but the expression changes to something else entirely when Mance flashes a smile and says. "Of course, I was thinking with something other than my stomach at the time."

"Aye, your head, filled with all sorts of kingly wisdom," Vee makes a rare jest of her own.

The Northerner laughs more cheerfully by far, but as he turns to you his expression sobers once again. "If They were on our heels like the howling blizzard most of the Free Folk would kneel on the shore and and then rush right into the ships, but it's summer still and it's going to be that way for years yet, there's going to be a lot who don't fancy living off naught but what goodwill you feel like showing them. That's why I was in Hardhome. Didn't know you were just going to offer land across the sea, of course, but I figured if I could see about building a proper port, maybe have a talk with the Lady of Skane, get those that followed me to stop thinking of their own feuds and lands but of Hardhome entire, it would be easier to get them all to take ship to the east and we'd have the sliver to pay for it. Silver we don't need, you say, but the time it would have taken to earn it would have had a worth of its own."

Warnings about following the law and the promise of rich tomorrow die upon your tongue, not because they would be untrue, but because it is clear the man... no the king before you, for he surely deserves the title more than the fool on the Iron Throne, had considered them already. He head meant to forge the Free Folk into a settled folk that lived off trade, not raiding, before buying passage in the hope of easing them into their new lives.

"Hardhome cannot support that many long, not without a hinterland or a lot of fishing boats, preferably both," you point out, quickly going over the numbers from Riz'Neth's report in your mind. "Some would have to sail away."

Mance grimaces, but he still points out. "You would be getting tribes still, raiders, folk with something to prove."

What do you do?

[] Support Hardhome as a trading post while the population can come naturally under your sphere of influence
-[] Write in time and resources allocated

[] Begin evacuation as soon as you are able, Essos can swallow the relatively small Free Folk population without significant issue and you would rather have them out of reach of the Others sooner rather than later
-[] Write in plan

[] Write in


OOC: So here you have it, Mance's plan, it was not to take up permanent residence in Hardhome, but rather to build up a community there that would then be better equipped to deal with the South, or the East as the case may be.
 
...Eh, I can't summon the effort to plan around them.
However, a note to @Crake and anyone else who will be planning, 12th month is out of the question for "immediate evacuation", be it Thenns or Hardhomies.
Timmie's gon Tim, and all that.
Moonchaser, or most reliable mean of transporting people at the moment, is gonna be busy enforcing power around Yi-Ti'sh borders.

[X] Goldfish
 
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I want to support Mance's idea since it makes sense and if works out can attract even more tribes to his side in general. Can trade and work with Thenns as well.

@DragonParadox does Mance still have canon followers with him? If so Thenn heir might be with him.
 
Hmm, it would be simpler in the long run if we could get the Wildlings to Essos sooner rather than later, but we can give Mance the resources to make Hardhome habitable and largely wash our hands of him for a while, which wouldn't be bad in the short term.

We should make it very clear, however, that we are not arming Wildling raiders so they'll be better equipped raiders.
 
[] You will support him for s time being, ensuring he has funds and resources to guarantee his people's safety-
-[] But in approximately 2 to 3 months we shall evacuate them, and any other Wildlings we can, from the lands Beyond the Wall. Him using the time to actively gather more wildlings would be appreciated.


Anyone?

Keeping them there is just wasteful - regardless of what we do, while they are there, Winter will be eating some of them up.

And they won't be doing anything productive either, whereas in Essos we can at least theoretically set them up to do something profitable.


While we can't immediately start on this, well, we can at least speed things up on our end, and ensure they survive long enough for the evacuation to start.
 
[] You will support him for s time being, ensuring he has funds and resources to guarantee his people's safety-
-[] But in approximately 2 to 3 months we shall evacuate them, and any other Wildlings we can, from the lands Beyond the Wall. Him using the time to actively gather more wildlings would be appreciated.


Anyone?

Keeping them there is just wasteful - regardless of what we do, while they are there, Winter will be eating some of them up.

And they won't be doing anything productive either, whereas in Essos we can at least theoretically set them up to do something profitable.


While we can't immediately start on this, well, we can at least speed things up on our end, and ensure they survive long enough for the evacuation to start.
I definitely agree with this. Mance building Hardhome is ultimately a wasted effort beyond a rally point for wildling refugees. It's the same reason we're not going to try to plant any trees Beyond the Wall -- it's all Winter Badlands, it's just a matter of time before it actively happens.
 
What if we let him do his thing but helped him feed his people?

Or what if we housed the tribes in Sororythos or something ?
 
[X] You will support him for a time being, ensuring he has the funds and the resources to guarantee his people's safety-
-[X] But in approximately 2 to 3 months we shall evacuate them, and any other Wildlings we can, from the lands Beyond the Wall. Him using the time to actively gather more wildlings under his banner would be appreciated.
 
Instant Fortresses are not artifacts.
Misremembered as I said, not really important as the issue was cost and rarity, who made that?
You're not really taking into account the amounts of money they stand to make, if they succeed.
I am, it's just vanishingly unlikely they will succeed. Malarys nearly got one shot in the middle of an oversized, full level party. By canon humans have been unable to settle even the shores of Sothyros no matter what manpower they throw at them.
You're not taking into account the conversion rate here.

1 IM equals 5 D&D gold, so that hypothetical 100 IM would be 500 gp in your example.
Too tired. You're right of course, the numbers drop significantly but then we aren't talking a years wages as I said to Artemis so call it 660. Given that it's a lifetime of scraping every penny it likely represents more than that on average.

There is also a massive gap between the common people and the wealthy on Planetos. Using the average life savings of a peasant or unskilled laborer isn't a good metric at all. It's not much different than comparing the average lifetime savings of someone making minimum wage versus the cost of an F-16 fighter jet. Governments and rich people have different standards.
It was merely a proxy to illustrate the relative manpower they are commanding because we have lost all sense of scale in raw currency.

I don't actually care about peasant wealth, I care about what they consider wealth because it gives us an idea of what level of manpower you can get for a given figure.

Annualise the revised figures and you end up with similar numbers to the origina, That illustrates that they are sending the equivalent of thousands of people in a few magical creations, not accounting for the stuff off screen or the other stuff that was on screen or the actual people they hire etc.

I agree it's like an F-16, governments have them (and not even all of them), rich people tend not to.

This merchant venture is not a government level entity, and if we're saying it is then it's a good thing an inquisitor is there I guess.

But they should all probably die in a dinosaur migration, or the acid mosquito swarms or the floods, or the murderous trees etc. Goodluck to them but I just don't see it happening when entire established cities vanished basically overnight in canon, the world's largest fleets driven off and barely so much as ruins to represent them.

The Valyrians feared the hungry jungle at the height of their power, their bases still relegated to islands off the coast even with massive, flying, fire breathing lizards that can scout, clear and murder from the air.

A desperate last bid indeed, they should sacrifice generously to the dice gods.
 
Yet there are things that block a private venture from building or commissioning their own F-16, not least of all because there are things that cost as much as one yet don't have the same destructive potential.

A glass golem is not going to have the same destructive potential as a Wyvern, even if the prices aren't too far off from each other, simply because the engineering and disparate parts that go into one have a disproportionate effect compared to the price.

And similarly, there are just some things they wouldn't be able to build themselves, because they don't have the access to the right experts.

Our WBL collectively (at around level 10~) wouldn't be too far off the mark for this major expedition if added altogether, and we aren't going off WBL, we're going off the funds a conglomerate of very rich people can bring to bear and an open extraplanar market.

Also, bit of a clarification, but they don't intend to delve deep into the jungle, but rather only the portions that Rizneth's people have identified as worth growing reagents in. Still dangerous, deadly even, but with mitigating factors.
 
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I agree it's like an F-16, governments have them (and not even all of them), rich people tend not to.

It bears remembering that this is not the modern age or anything analogous to it. There are quite a few rich people in Braavos or Volantis who could easily eclipse the wealth of say Lhazarheen cities. Even in Viserys' dominion Myr's official treasury is dwarfed several times by the combined wealth of its ruling archonic council.
 
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Misremembered as I said, not really important as the issue was cost and rarity, who made that?

I am, it's just vanishingly unlikely they will succeed. Malarys nearly got one shot in the middle of an oversized, full level party. By canon humans have been unable to settle even the shores of Sothyros no matter what manpower they throw at them.

Too tired. You're right of course, the numbers drop significantly but then we aren't talking a years wages as I said to Artemis so call it 660. Given that it's a lifetime of scraping every penny it likely represents more than that on average.


It was merely a proxy to illustrate the relative manpower they are commanding because we have lost all sense of scale in raw currency.

I don't actually care about peasant wealth, I care about what they consider wealth because it gives us an idea of what level of manpower you can get for a given figure.

Annualise the revised figures and you end up with similar numbers to the origina, That illustrates that they are sending the equivalent of thousands of people in a few magical creations, not accounting for the stuff off screen or the other stuff that was on screen or the actual people they hire etc.

I agree it's like an F-16, governments have them (and not even all of them), rich people tend not to.

This merchant venture is not a government level entity, and if we're saying it is then it's a good thing an inquisitor is there I guess.

But they should all probably die in a dinosaur migration, or the acid mosquito swarms or the floods, or the murderous trees etc. Goodluck to them but I just don't see it happening when entire established cities vanished basically overnight in canon, the world's largest fleets driven off and barely so much as ruins to represent them.

The Valyrians feared the hungry jungle at the height of their power, their bases still relegated to islands off the coast even with massive, flying, fire breathing lizards that can scout, clear and murder from the air.

A desperate last bid indeed, they should sacrifice generously to the dice gods.
It all depends on where they set up, how far into the continent they try to explore, and how well the geography compliments their efforts. There's a difference between existing on the fringe and exploiting the resources on the edge of the habitable zone, and trying outright take the land, conquer the jungles, and yoke the Dinosaurs as beasts of burden.
 
The Valyrians are also described as not caring that much about colonial efforts, both in canon and in ASWaH. They absolutely could have cleared a great swathe of the land, but it would have been ruinously expensive, in lives and money.
 
[X] You will support him for a time being, ensuring he has the funds and the resources to guarantee his people's safety-
-[X] But in approximately 2 to 3 months we shall evacuate them, and any other Wildlings we can, from the lands Beyond the Wall. Him using the time to actively gather more wildlings under his banner would be appreciated.
Two to three months really isn't enough time to make this practical for Mance or the Wildlings. Communication between tribes and travel by foot through rugged terrain is going to be very slow going.

5 to 6 months would be more realistic for Mance's efforts to bear fruit.
 
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