What do the entities that gift power to warlocks get out of it? They don't always act like clerics for things that aren't gods, especially since 3.5 ones don't have to actually agree to a pact or anything.

If the standard answer is "eat a nice fat high level soul after the warlock dies" then they'll be more of a hindrance than a help.
 
What do the entities that gift power to warlocks get out of it? They don't always act like clerics for things that aren't gods, especially since 3.5 ones don't have to actually agree to a pact or anything.

If the standard answer is "eat a nice fat high level soul after the warlock dies" then they'll be more of a hindrance than a help.

It is usually more about their influence in the world than anything else. For example it is usually the more powerful demons, devils, angels etc that do pacts with mortals so that they can influence the world without their presence being necessary. An example would be something like a Solar. Those fuckers directly intervening would be like burning half a continent. Sometimes a more subtle touch is required. Sometimes it is also to corrupt beings.

Edit: Some warlocks just have magic...like Sorcerers? Not all warlocks are pact warlocks.
 
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It is usually more about their influence in the world than anything else. For example it is usually the more powerful demons, devils, angels etc that do pacts with mortals so that they can influence the world without their presence being necessary. An example would be something like a Solar. Those fuckers directly intervening would be like burning half a continent. Sometimes a more subtle touch is required. Sometimes it is also to corrupt beings.

Edit: Some warlocks just have magic...like Sorcerers? Not all warlocks are pact warlocks.

5e warlocks all take pacts, but I thought 3.5 ones were just like weird sorcerers. They are born with the potential and have a personal well of power that grows as they use it.

The only reason I can think of to actively make them without also ensuring they'll work for you is to harvest them after they've grown that spark of power into something more significant. That might not be the case, but we should look into it if we start employing them in large numbers.
 
5e warlocks all take pacts, but I thought 3.5 ones were just like weird sorcerers. They are born with the potential and have a personal well of power that grows as they use it.

The only reason I can think of to actively make them without also ensuring they'll work for you is to harvest them after they've grown that spark of power into something more significant. That might not be the case, but we should look into it if we start employing them in large numbers.
By the 3.5 fluff they generally make Pacts with something, but it's not absolutely required. There are some Warlocks who draw their power directly from a Plane or Concept, IIRC.
 
5e warlocks all take pacts, but I thought 3.5 ones were just like weird sorcerers. They are born with the potential and have a personal well of power that grows as they use it.

The only reason I can think of to actively make them without also ensuring they'll work for you is to harvest them after they've grown that spark of power into something more significant. That might not be the case, but we should look into it if we start employing them in large numbers.
Maelor is a good example of a warlock who didn't need an entity to make a pact. A bit of eldritch heritage is plenty.
 
5e warlocks all take pacts, but I thought 3.5 ones were just like weird sorcerers. They are born with the potential and have a personal well of power that grows as they use it.

The only reason I can think of to actively make them without also ensuring they'll work for you is to harvest them after they've grown that spark of power into something more significant. That might not be the case, but we should look into it if we start employing them in large numbers.

Warlocks are weird man. Like they are the miscellaneous of magic users along with bards.
 
What was the conclusion? Can he do it or not?
Eventually he can safely make Dragonfire Adepts, IIRC, but doing so right now would weaken him to an unacceptable degree. Maybe that will change with his next Mythic tier, which will give him the ability to grant Divine spells to people.
 
@Crake, remember that Viserys absolutely did want to uphold the rights of the nobility at quest start. Not doing so was simply unthinkable to him, outside of personal vengeance. He was a pure product of feudalism.

It is his travels, his experiences with cultures from all around the world that changed him, and especially his acknowledgement that :
  1. Holy shit, lots of "right to rule" people really suck
  2. Lots of peasants are in fact NOT walking pile of human waste
  3. Many obvious social strictures really aren't that obvious. Women, bastards, thieves... He knows so many "exceptions to the rules" that the rules no longer seem so ironclad
  4. He isn't a cruel asswipe, so his general goal to be a good king who brings peace and prosperity obviously led him to want to reform the failures of the feudal system.
  5. The feudal system sucks ass, so obviously any effort to bring peace and prosperity involved fairly deep reforms.

Of course IRL reforms such as the ones he is thinking of may not have been a great idea depending on the context (decentralised power and a strong social order aren't the world we live in, but they definitely do have advantages in some contexts) so I wouldn't assume that there is a one-size-fits-all "way to reform feudalism" that he is applying.
On the other hand his current methods seem good to me in this context (and because, you know, he's a Dragon) and I expect them to work unless another superpower actively intervenes.
Why you tagging me in this context?
 
You were saying the opposite on the previous page, but as it was past midnight in my timezone I replied rather late and tagged you for clarity.
Uh, nope. I didn't. I don't think anyone did.

You ok?

Edit: I guess Zioneer's original joke of "that sounded like something Viserys would say" could be taken for sarcasm?
 
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Uh, nope. I didn't. I don't think anyone did.

You ok?

Edit: I guess Zioneer's original joke of "that sounded like something Viserys would say" could be taken for sarcasm?
I may have misremebered (there was a night's sleep in between me reading the discussion and me answering) but AFAIK the topic of Viserys reforming the nobility came up with Zioneer's prequel meme, and then people started saying that Viserys would never have said he would preserve the rights of the nobility. I disagree with that, of course, and think that while today Viserys isn't backing the nobility to the hilt in the past he absolutely would have. The point of character development is that it starts somewhere, after all.

And even here he doesn't seem opposed to nobility as an institution, just to incompetence and feudalism as a socioeconomic system.

[goes to reread that page]

You're right, I shouldn't have quoted you. I should have quoted @Smartphone and @Duesal, who did indeed say that Viserys wouldn't have defended the nobility at quest start.
 
Yeah, I was corrected on this subject a while ago by DragonParadox when he said that Viserys was very much pro-aristocracy, its just that his choice of who to include in the stratum is "anyone who proves themselves worthy of it".

And just going by our actions we're aware many are completely unworthy of it any we'll use any justification others will accept to get rid of them if possible.
 
And again, I was more just coming up with something to say in the first part of the meme, rather than being serious about it. I was just trying to get in a stupid prequel meme before the conversation moved on too quickly.

But at this point I think Viserys is more going for a meritocratic aristocracy, with himself as a theoretically absolute monarch who is perfectly willing to let people be if they aren't causing trouble. At the very start of the quest he didn't seem to have much thought beyond "my dad was a powerful king brought down by traitors, I'll be a powerful king but I'll kill all the traitors first."
 
Inserted tally
Adhoc vote count started by Goldfish on Dec 7, 2019 at 11:49 AM, finished with 42 posts and 21 votes.
 
Part MMMCCXIX: Kinship of Mind and Dreams
Kinship of Mind and Dreams

Twenty Fourth Day of the Eleventh Month 293 AC

The moon hangs low and full above the crumbling houses of Gogossos, and even the beasts of the jungle are still, as though awaiting some signal. In the windows of the newly built fortress mage lanterns burn against the darkness and the tireless eyes of erinyes watch for the twisted beasts they have come to know all too well, formless misbegotten children of the Forge whose lifeblood thumps beneath their feet. But what they sense is not the approach of some ancient horror that had been lurking in the shadows of the broken walls or the hollows of rotted trees. This is a life newborn. More perhaps than anything else you have wrought by the arts of flesh-shaping, these will be beings to change the world.

You know the Valyrians of old would name it madness, but Valyria is gone, its knowledge passed on to the stewardship of the Old Gods. Other gods, other powers, may name it hubris perhaps, but you cannot afford to lend an ear to such words. The Spheres lie sundered and all across them stride horrors that could shatter armies by their very presence. Against such might what can you bring to bear, your own strength, that of your companions, your allies, but is that enough? You are few and they are legion.

What being of this world could be so mighty as to face the worst the Spheres can offer and stand undaunted even in the face of that which lurks beyond, you wondered. You did not wonder long, the answer was as close as a mirror of silver, or a still pool under the moonlight.

Varys stirs on your shoulder in anticipation. "What do you mean you looked in the mirror?" she asks archly.

As you approach Dany, who waita for you by the fortified entrance of the Forge, you see the air around her is alive with tiny forms, scarce larger than a dragonfly but each a perfect dragon in miniature, eager for the awakening or perhaps just for their mother's praise.

Through the link to your familiar you feel her being bombarded with bright, young mind-voices, images tumbling over sound and sound over idea, of all the bugs they had hunted and all the strange things they had seen in Dany's company. They are not quite the same sort of greetings human children would give their mother, of course. Like all dragons, Varys' kin can fly and hunt as soon as they hatch and need no guiding hand to help them survive in the world, but like all young beings, they crave the praise and recognition of their elders.

Varys dolls it out, of course, with a generous hand, adjudicating the odd quarrel over a shiny coin or a strangely shaped bone that had been snatched away or lost. "Did we really have to bring them here tonight?" she asks in mock-exasperation.

"They are to meet their kin, are they not?" you ask in like tone. The jest holds a deeper truth, however. Varys' breed of dragon has far more in common with those who shall awaken tonight than you or Ysandryx or even Relath. The kindly gregarious dragon-kin whose minds instinctively reach for those of other thinking beings, friendship had been the spindle upon which the thread was wound.

Ahead, you hear scratches of claw on leather or something like it and the steady thump of four great beats. As you step into the incubating chamber you are met with a cheerful Qyburn, smiling as proud as a midwife after a lucky birth, and a somewhat more reserved but still bright-eyed Lady Saenena. Hung in the four corners of the chamber are translucent pods, bloated to the size of an elephant, and quivering as though fit to burst. Within each an indistinct figure shifts. There a sky-blue wing is clearly seen, here a sinuous tail curling.

"It is almost time. Your Grace, Your Highness, they are getting restless," the former measter says.

"Well then, I am happy I was able to make it in time," you reply with a smile of your own. Mentally you project. "Hail, my kindred, joyous is the day when you shall awaken from the Dream to aid me in the waking world."

Four voices answer, each in their own manner, for though their flesh is less than a moon-turn old, long have their minds wandered the Dragon Dream:

"Hail cousins, joyous it will be to greet the sky and those who dwell beneath it."

"Much there is yet to see of the world that is wondrous."

"Much askew to set aright."

"And in the doing learn that we may shape the world as it shapes us."


Four sets of eyes open, bright as the moon above, four sets of wings stretch out and with a great tearing sound the birthing bods are are ripped by claws and cut by lashing tails. Nameless arcane fluids wash over the stone, as for the first time in uncounted ages new dragons step upon the face of the world, the kindred of the mind wyrms.


Abruptly, the chamber darkens to all your senses both mortal and arcane, and in some indefinable distance you hear a roar of rage born of five throats at the usurpation of her most primal domain. The vision fades, the stone returns beneath your feet, the chamber unchanged, but the memory remains.

"I think Someone may be a bit angry with us. Just a hint," Dany says, her voice shaking ever so slightly at the jest. Then her expression hardens. "All the better for us, She makes more mistakes when She is wrathful."

"She sought us with blandishments and lies, but they stank of Her malice," one of the mind dragons proclaims, thoughts cold and unyielding as thrice forged steel. "What do you ask of us, cousin?"

What do you reply?

[] Write in

OOC: Future Mind Dragons, whether forged or hatched, will not have to face Tiamat so long as their elders are present to protect and guide them through the Dream, but for these the Mother of Dragons invoked her domain to try to tempt them.
 
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On the one hand I'm glad our little abominations against god and man decided not to take the offer. On the other hand, holy fucking shit Tiamat getting her hands on even one Psionic dragon is something almost too scary to contemplate.
 
Kinship of Mind and Dreams

Twenty Fourth Day of the Eleventh Month 293 AC

The moon hangs low and full above the crumbling houses of Gogossos, and even the beasts of the jungle are still, as though awaiting some signal. In the windows of the newly built fortress mage lanterns burn against the darkness and the tireless eyes of erinyes watch for the twisted beasts they have come to know all too well, formless misbegotten children of the Forge whose lifeblood thumps beneath their feet. But what they sense is not the approach of some ancient horror that had been lurking in the shadows of the broken walls or the hollows of rotted trees. This is a life newborn. More perhaps than anything else you have wrought by the arts of flesh-shaping, these will be beings to change the world.

You know the Valyrians of old would name it madness, but Valyria is gone, its knowledge passed on to the stewardship of the Old Gods. Other gods, other powers, may name it hubris perhaps, but you cannot afford to lend an ear to such words. The Spheres lie sundered and all across them stride horrors that could shatter armies by their very presence. Against such might what can you bring to bear, your own strength, that of your companions, your allies, but is that enough? You are few and they are legion.

What being of this world could be so mighty as to face the worst the Spheres can offer and stand undaunted even in the face of that which lurks beyond, you wondered. You did not wonder long, the answer was as close as a mirror of silver, or a still pool under the moonlight.

Varys stirs on your shoulder in anticipation. "What do you mean you looked in the mirror?" she asks archly.

As you approach Dany, who waita for you by the fortified entrance of the Forge, you see the air around her is alive with tiny forms, scarce larger than a dragonfly but each a perfect dragon in miniature, eager for the awakening or perhaps just for their mother's praise.

Through the link to your familiar you feel her being bombarded with bright, young mind-voices, images tumbling over sound and sound over idea, of all the bugs they had hunted and all the strange things they had seen in Dany's company. They are not quite the same sort of greetings human children would give their mother, of course. Like all dragons, Varys' kin can fly and hunt as soon as they hatch and need no guiding hand to help them survive in the world, but like all young beings, they crave the praise and recognition of their elders.

Varys dolls it out, of course, with a generous hand, adjudicating the odd quarrel over a shiny coin or a strangely shaped bone that had been snatched away or lost. "Did we really have to bring them here tonight?" she asks in mock-exasperation.

"They are to meet their kin, are they not?" you ask in like tone. The jest holds a deeper truth, however. Varys' breed of dragon has far more in common with those who shall awaken tonight than you or Ysandryx or even Relath. The kindly gregarious dragon-kin whose minds instinctively reach for those of other thinking beings, friendship had been the spindle upon which the thread was wound.

Ahead, you hear scratches of claw on leather or something like it and the steady thump of four great beats. As you step into the incubating chamber you are met with a cheerful Qyburn, smiling as proud as a midwife after a lucky birth, and a somewhat more reserved but still bright-eyed Lady Saenena. Hung in the four corners of the chamber are translucent pods, bloated to the size of an elephant, and quivering as though fit to burst. Within each an indistinct figure shifts. There a sky-blue wing is clearly seen, here a sinuous tail curling.

"It is almost time. Your Grace, Your Highness, they are getting restless," the former measter says.

"Well then, I am happy I was able to make it in time," you reply with a smile of your own. Mentally you project. "Hail, my kindred, joyous is the day when you shall awaken from the Dream to aid me in the waking world."

Four voices answer, each in their own manner, for though their flesh is less than a moon-turn old, long have their minds wandered the Dragon Dream:

"Hail cousins, joyous it will be to greet the sky and those who dwell beneath it."

"Much there is yet to see of the world that is wondrous."

"Much askew to set aright."

"And in the doing learn that we may shape the world as it shapes us."


Four sets of eyes open, bright as the moon above, four sets of wings stretch out and with a great tearing sound the birthing bods are are ripped by claws and cut by lashing tails. Nameless arcane fluids wash over the stone, as for the first time in uncounted ages new dragons step upon the face of the world, the kindred of the mind wyrms.


Abruptly, the chamber darkens to all your senses both mortal and arcane, and in some indefinable distance you hear a roar of rage born of five throats at the usurpation of her most primal domain. The vision fades, the stone returns beneath your feet, the chamber unchanged, but the memory remains.

"I think Someone may be a bit angry with us. Just a hint," Dany says, her voice shaking ever so slightly at the jest. Then her expression hardens. "All the better for us, She makes more mistakes when She is wrathful."

"She sought us with blandishments and lies, but they stank of Her malice," one of the mind dragons proclaims, thoughts cold and unyielding as thrice forged steel. "What do you ask of us, cousin?"

What do you reply?

[] Write in

OOC: Future Mind Dragons, whether forged or hatched, will not have to face Tiamat so long as their elders are present to protect and guide them through the Dream, but for these the Mother of Dragons invoked her domain to try to tempt them.
Here's an edited version of the chapter, @DragonParadox.
 
Hey guys, I just got to the section where you were beginning final preparations for the invasion of Tyrosh, but the map is broken. Do any of you guys have it saved somewhere by any chance?
 
Haha, get fucked Tiamat! :cool:

That was great, @DragonParadox. Varys' tiny little hatchlings are adorable, of course, and the birth of the Mind Dragons...just perfect. :cry:
 
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