The less Houses that march with Ned the better. True he's not the most strategically relevant lord to block off, but every House counts. And the more that we can convince to break away from him the easier post-Conquest reforms will be to enforce.

Yeah, this is really shaping up in our favor. I'm getting excited.
I understand the point you are making, as it is the same logic I accept for getting all of the minor southern lords that we can under our control.

But I remain skeptical of the relative value of Viserys taking the time to personally recruit northern lords who are unlikely to ever be in a position to fight us due to geography and travel times, when we have Tiamat, the Deep Ones, Asmodeus, the Brass Bastard, who knows what is going on in Yin, and the Bloodstone Emperor already on our plates. Can we really say that recruiting minor northern lords is worthwhile given the constraints on our time imposed by the opposition before us?

I couldn't think of anything funny for him to say in the first part so I just went with that, since it seemed a reasonable thing for him to promise (at least for loyal vassals)
I thought as much, it seemed like the sort of promise that would have gotten brought up given our focus on oaths and tearing down the feudal system.
 
Can't the diplomatic corps/Rhaella help with recruiting minor northern lords?

Don't know much about asoiaf, but are there any houses that need personal diplomancy?
 
I understand the point you are making, as it is the same logic I accept for getting all of the minor southern lords that we can under our control.

But I remain skeptical of the relative value of Viserys taking the time to personally recruit northern lords who are unlikely to ever be in a position to fight us due to geography and travel times, when we have Tiamat, the Deep Ones, Asmodeus, the Brass Bastard, who knows what is going on in Yin, and the Bloodstone Emperor already on our plates. Can we really say that recruiting minor northern lords is worthwhile given the constraints on our time imposed by the opposition before us?
I freely acknowledge that they're very much not a priority and we might not get to them, we'll be focusing on the Stormlands, Vale, and Reach instead. That being said we don't really need Viserys to personally go around diplomancing Northern lords, that's what Rhaella and the Diplocorps were made for. We've got a hell of a lot of prestige with the North as a whole for:
1) Helping the Night's Watch so much
2) Not dragging the Night's Watch into politics even when the Iron Throne did their best to do so
3) Helping White Harbor and House Manderly survive

And that's leaving aside the Houses we've personally helped who've joined us. Even the lords that are against us grudgingly respect us for this.

Tldr they're not a priority but it shouldn't take Viserys' personal effort to mop up a few more of them.
 
I freely acknowledge that they're very much not a priority and we might not get to them, we'll be focusing on the Stormlands, Vale, and Reach instead. That being said we don't really need Viserys to personally go around diplomancing Northern lords, that's what Rhaella and the Diplocorps were made for. We've got a hell of a lot of prestige with the North as a whole for:
1) Helping the Night's Watch so much
2) Not dragging the Night's Watch into politics even when the Iron Throne did their best to do so
3) Helping White Harbor and House Manderly survive

And that's leaving aside the Houses we've personally helped who've joined us. Even the lords that are against us grudgingly respect us for this.

Tldr they're not a priority but it shouldn't take Viserys' personal effort to mop up a few more of them.
Ok, then I have no issue with diplomancing Northern Lord's if it is not taking Viserys personal attention.
 
Seven-times, this month we were to
A)
[X] Have a personal meeting with the Chosen of Smith.
-[X] Extensively divine irregular points of interest about him and his works - just in case, since one favored by Smith can prepare far more of a trap than a regular cleric.
--[X] Check his supply routes, from where he gets the materials for enchanting - and the people he interacts with along the way, including those he gives the items to, and who gave him the order of Dragon-slaying weaponry. Such spell as Hindsight may come especially in handy if he interacted with someone protected by Mindblank, giving us at least a clue to investigate.
--[X] With Chosen of Crone having been helping him, also try to affect the same general points about her and сompany she keeps.
---[X] Learn the interests and priorities of Chosen of Crone, the people they keep company with - a usual thorough investigation in search of clues for a possible trap.
-[X] If no suspicious activity is detected via divination, meet with him - the focus of the meeting is to set up at least mild relationship with the Chosen, and ensuring he focuses on bigger threats to people of Westeros than us.
--[X] Sharing with him our wast array of Lore on Enemies of All (Devils, Demons, Daemons, Others, Illithid, Fey, Rakshasa, Tiamat, etc.-) is a big aspect of this. There is also the potential of directly sponsoring him (see: Warrior's Chosen) if all goes well...
B) See the reaction/consequences of preachers that had been sent to SD by Lucan and Danelle.


Lucan will likely die sooner or later, and Danelle may just follow.
While tragic iC, I cant really care enough.

Father's and Stranger's Chosen are the most opposed to us, our rule, our ideals.

It is just too bad we can't spend a dedicated action to rooting out Stranger's chosen, really.
We have no information to start such a search from, and they are Mindblanked.
...Mindblanked and likely actively stirring shit up against us.

Ugh.
At least Crone's/Smith's Chosen aren't as adverse to us through sheer aspects of Seven.
Them, we still might grab with a measure of success, or at least convince to not stir shit up during re-conquest.

I'm really sad we promised not to influence matters of Faith.
Having nuclear option on hand always reassured me.
 
I think it's a pretty precarious slope anyway, just in hindsight. While I believe the Faith is already and still is currently splintering in different directions, it's in an uncontrolled fashion.

We refrain from manipulating them further for much of the same reason we do R'hllor. Either they will go down swinging in which case they will be maneuvered into causing enough damage to justify our declawing them completely to the people that actually matter, or they will be assimilated into the machine by social warfare and mass media. Doing anything else is just risking overreaching, a common problem some of the remaining movers and shakers in Westeros ran into where they flew too close the sun trying to play in the big leagues but just ended up being played. Even Lucan is being played... he was bait for us, and we didn't bite. Now they have to make things messy.

I also laugh at the threats from the Fey to smear us. The consistency of our character profile and their lack of understanding of mortals just gives us more opportunities to show people how we're indispensable and the only one deserving of over-arching secular authority. And our hands-off manner when it comes to religion renders arguments that we would try to control the Gods as laughable. It's after all not our fault Lucan didn't do the wise thing and forge alliances with deities who were weakened first and thus reliant on us for aid, and then prove too indispensable to betray later on.

Already the Seven betray their faithful whenever they try pulling some awfully cultish behavior like subverting Lords in secret or murdering or brainwashing anyone vaguely threatening in cold blood.

Lucan is a thug and a hypocritical menace. And quite frankly anyone who supports his ideas is just as problematic so as nice as Danelle appears to be if she's that short-sighted to ignore the implications of how ruinous the dude's behavior is, she was just going too be a chink in our armor anyway.
 
I think it's a pretty precarious slope anyway, just in hindsight. While I believe the Faith is already and still is currently splintering in different directions, it's in an uncontrolled fashion.

We refrain from manipulating them further for much of the same reason we do R'hllor.
Ah, but dont get me wrong - the "Nuclear Option" I'm talking about is MURDER, CAPTURE THE SOUL, FEED TO YSS as usual.
And I'm only talking about it as something nice to have the option of, without the moral hang-ups "breaking an oath" would imply.

Manipulation...
Well, Lucan's still going to slither 'round, subverting people to his cause.
Why should we care about that little promise if he actively works against us?

And no, I don't hold hope that he'll act reasonably for but a second.

Essentialy, the Conclave didn't resolve anything for either of us.
I also laugh at the threats from the Fey to smear us. The consistency of our character profile and their lack of understanding of mortals just gives us more opportunities to show people how we're indispensable and the only one deserving of over-arching secular authority.
CoS is a mess of an itself, and the best we can do without pulling another Tiamat/Illithid/Asmodeus-level threat for Reconquest, is to make em fight each-other.

We can be too much of a unifying presence for them, and fightinh with an entire Feywild's worth of Feyholes is... suboptimal.
 
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Ah, but dont get me wrong - the "Nuclear Option" I'm talking about is MURDER, CAPTURE THE SOUL, FEED TO YSS as usual.
And I'm only talking about it as something nice to have the option of, without the moral hang-ups "breaking an oath" would imply.

Manipulation...
Well, Lucan's still going to slither 'round, subverting people to his cause.
Why should we care about that little promise if he actively works against us?

And no, I don't hold hope that he'll act reasonably for but a second.

Essentialy, the Conclave didn't resolve anything for either of us.
CoS is a mess of an itself, and the best we can do without pulling another Tiamat/Illithid/Asmodeus-level threat for Reconquest, is to make em fight each-other.

We can be too much of a unifying presence for them, and fightinh with an entire Feywild's worth of Feyholes is... suboptimal.

True but the Fey aren't used to innovation, and in effect want to stagnate it.

As a first option.

It's easier to respond to asymmetric forces when you yourself can redeploy a lot of force projection rapidly. And now are building an air force...
 
Vote closed.
Adhoc vote count started by DragonParadox on Dec 7, 2019 at 3:56 AM, finished with 76 posts and 17 votes.
 
True but the Fey aren't used to innovation, and in effect want to stagnate it.

As a first option.

It's easier to respond to asymmetric forces when you yourself can redeploy a lot of force projection rapidly. And now are building an air force...
We'd better make allies with Court of Depths, Goldengrove, and Court of Green, if we are seriously considering all-out brawling with CoS during Reconquest.

And also grabbing all the Wild Fey we can, and killing those too asshole to be looted.

Basically, we need to put as much of a lid as we can on the Feywild entrances, for such a OP as you're describing.
[] A Darker Kind of Fey: Deal with various Fey of Court of Stars proving a danger to people of Westeros:
-[] Swift Eye, a Quickling who haunts the outskirts of Oldtown alongside his troupe has been known to deal with Deep Ones. On the other hand, he has helped the Lantern Bearers as much if not more. His greed seems to be the great constant of his being. Due to his loyalty to the court, he has been left in peace, though it has been foretold that he will meet an unfortunate end soon at the hands of Deep One agents. He is counted among the Gold faction.
-[] Jagged Knife, a Redcap whose court has set up on the edge of the Rainwood ambushing travelers, particularly families with young children whom he torments with dreadful choices trading lives until they go mad. He is only nominally part of the Court of Stars. Crimson Lotus suspects he gained that position by some manner of blackmail. Killing him might gain favor with his supposed patron of the Indigo if one can stomach working with a being who tacitly allowed such monstrous deeds.

[] Courts of Wild, courts of Green: Meet with Courts of the Greenwood, known for the association with Old Gods of the North. (Tokens of Passage for Old Gods friendly courts near Harroway and Starfall available)

[] The Court of Depths: Meet with the Fey hiding beneath the Garden's waves.

[] The Court of Goldengrove: A Driad queen resides in Rowan's Nest, guarding an entrance to Feywild – and alongside her a Court of nymphs and satyrs. Go there, and learn more of what place they seek in this world of returning magic – if they can be trusted, or relied upon with deals fairly made (Opposition: ?? Wylkfae, A Driad Queen, Satyrs, Nymphs; Rewards: ??).

[] Capping off a Danger: Cleaned out as most of darker WylkFae have been by Faith and the clansmen, some still escaped. Hunt down the dangerous Redcap murdering travelers, now moved to Kingswood in search of more prey. (Opposition: ??, Redcaps; Rewards: ??)
While general "kill assholes" is perfectly achievable via minions, Courts need be visited in person.
And they won't swear fealty easily or cheaply, I assume.
 
@DragonParadox How old is Bess Bracken?

Also I'm gearing up to write another omake today or tonight. So far ideas are:

1) Myrish Venture Captain trying to start some kind of long-term speculation and enterprise with Rizz'neth and his people.
2) Rhaenys going for a flight, and Elia, Rhaella and Lya awkwardly bonding by discussing politics and weddings (hopefully without murders, no promises though).
3) Monford Velaryon has a million problems... and Aurane just solved a bunch of them? Why are you only competent when you're asked to do the bare minimum?!
 
@DragonParadox How old is Bess Bracken?

Also I'm gearing up to write another omake today or tonight. So far ideas are:

1) Myrish Venture Captain trying to start some kind of long-term speculation and enterprise with Rizz'neth and his people.
2) Rhaenys going for a flight, and Elia, Rhaella and Lya awkwardly bonding by discussing politics and weddings (hopefully without murders, no promises though).
3) Monford Velaryon has a million problems... and Aurane just solved a bunch of them? Why are you only competent when you're asked to do the bare minimum?!

3.
 
@DragonParadox How old is Bess Bracken?

Also I'm gearing up to write another omake today or tonight. So far ideas are:

1) Myrish Venture Captain trying to start some kind of long-term speculation and enterprise with Rizz'neth and his people.
2) Rhaenys going for a flight, and Elia, Rhaella and Lya awkwardly bonding by discussing politics and weddings (hopefully without murders, no promises though).
3) Monford Velaryon has a million problems... and Aurane just solved a bunch of them? Why are you only competent when you're asked to do the bare minimum?!
  1. She is eight years old
  2. All the omakes sound cool with a slight preference to the first one
 
  1. She is eight years old
  2. All the omakes sound cool with a slight preference to the first one
The original ideas were things like using Sothoryosi sourced precious stones and Myrish Gemcutters to do a "cutting out multiple middle-men" as there are usually many different experts that a single gem will pass through before it enters its final state and is set in jewelry, often the case in real life because it's difficult to get that many experts all together in one business in reality and the nature of Myrish Guilds makes this an even greater impediment, instead having only a source and a seller and exploiting the by their nature much laxer laws on the frontier.

Of course the Planar terminus completely upends this. Gems aren't worthless but now the problem is there are rare and exotic kinds that can only be found offplane and it is kind of everyone's obsession right now. Breaking into that kind of market is risky, even touting exotic sources like the dangerous and exotic Southlands.

So then he got thinking, ritualists need reagents to do their stuff too, right? And transporting vast quantities of it is something only the State can do with relative ease, seeing as how caravans are coming in mostly carrying luxury items.

Sothoryos is one of the few places in the world where you could probably extract wealth straight up as magical reagents through foraging and have it be profitable. By their very nature most of the stuff collected is I assume only useful for enchantment and rituals because of sympathetic connections, though you'd have to expand on that for me a bit for accuracy, meaning you couldn't just grow fields of certain plants, they'd be sickly and inadequate for the purpose without the right conditions (usually stuff being found near open vents of magic or right along leylines) and some wouldn't grow or be transmuted or get butchered from stuff at all if you tried cultivating it under controlled conditions, not without exorbitantly careful magical engineering.

Planar Empires can afford to do some of that, since they can control the prime real estate necessary for it and invest the money to maintain it and just about break even AND control the flow of goods.

But thus far no one's doing that on Planetos. You could become really rich doing so. And the south is the only place with enough of these zones to make it profitable.
 
The original ideas were things like using Sothoryosi sourced precious stones and Myrish Gemcutters to do a "cutting out multiple middle-men" as there are usually many different experts that a single gem will pass through before it enters its final state and is set in jewelry, often the case in real life because it's difficult to get that many experts all together in one business in reality and the nature of Myrish Guilds makes this an even greater impediment, instead having only a source and a seller and exploiting the by their nature much laxer laws on the frontier.

Of course the Planar terminus completely upends this. Gems aren't worthless but now the problem is there are rare and exotic kinds that can only be found offplane and it is kind of everyone's obsession right now. Breaking into that kind of market is risky, even touting exotic sources like the dangerous and exotic Southlands.

So then he got thinking, ritualists need reagents to do their stuff too, right? And transporting vast quantities of it is something only the State can do with relative ease, seeing as how caravans are coming in mostly carrying luxury items.

Sothoryos is one of the few places in the world where you could probably extract wealth straight up as magical reagents through foraging and have it be profitable. By their very nature most of the stuff collected is I assume only useful for enchantment and rituals because of sympathetic connections, though you'd have to expand on that for me a bit for accuracy, meaning you couldn't just grow fields of certain plants, they'd be sickly and inadequate for the purpose without the right conditions (usually stuff being found near open vents of magic or right along leylines) and some wouldn't grow or be transmuted or get butchered from stuff at all if you tried cultivating it under controlled conditions, not without exorbitantly careful magical engineering.

Planar Empires can afford to do some of that, since they can control the prime real estate necessary for it and invest the money to maintain it and just about break even AND control the flow of goods.

But thus far no one's doing that on Planetos. You could become really rich doing so. And the south is the only place with enough of these zones to make it profitable.

Sound business strategy, though he is probably going to need one or two mages on staff to buy the right reactants for what the market demands
 
@Crake, remember that Viserys absolutely did want to uphold the rights of the nobility at quest start. Not doing so was simply unthinkable to him, outside of personal vengeance. He was a pure product of feudalism.

It is his travels, his experiences with cultures from all around the world that changed him, and especially his acknowledgement that :
  1. Holy shit, lots of "right to rule" people really suck
  2. Lots of peasants are in fact NOT walking pile of human waste
  3. Many obvious social strictures really aren't that obvious. Women, bastards, thieves... He knows so many "exceptions to the rules" that the rules no longer seem so ironclad
  4. He isn't a cruel asswipe, so his general goal to be a good king who brings peace and prosperity obviously led him to want to reform the failures of the feudal system.
  5. The feudal system sucks ass, so obviously any effort to bring peace and prosperity involved fairly deep reforms.

Of course IRL reforms such as the ones he is thinking of may not have been a great idea depending on the context (decentralised power and a strong social order aren't the world we live in, but they definitely do have advantages in some contexts) so I wouldn't assume that there is a one-size-fits-all "way to reform feudalism" that he is applying.
On the other hand his current methods seem good to me in this context (and because, you know, he's a Dragon) and I expect them to work unless another superpower actively intervenes.
 
Inserted tally
Adhoc vote count started by DragonParadox on Dec 7, 2019 at 3:56 AM, finished with 76 posts and 17 votes.
 
Part MMMCCXVIII: Of Bright Beginnings
Of Bright Beginnings

Twenty Fourth Day of the Eleventh Month 293 AC

"How long has that been there?" There is not much doubt as to what Tytos Blackwood refers to. The Dawn Age tree looms over not just Sorcerer's Deep, but the whole of the island. As you watch Felzath lands lazily among the crimson crown, displacing a veritable cloud of raucous bright-plumaged birds that had come to make the tree their home.

"Depends on how you are minded to count it. The tree itself was there since the Dawn Age, but it was dead for so long the wood had turned to stone, not unlike how the Raventree was. Likely as not it died with the Hammer of the Waters," you reply, careful not to seem too boastful. There is hardly any need when the plain truth makes for so grand a tale. "Three moonturns past I bled such a great sacrifice upon the roots that the Old Gods gave it life again and its power could stretch over the island."

"So the tales of greybeards spry like in their twentieth year are true then?" At your nod the Lord of Raventree laughs, a sound of honest mirth, almost seeming to surprise himself. "Looks like I should have listened to Brynden and let him sail to the tourney instead of letting the damn Freys get ahead of him."

You remain diplomatically silent. It poorly suites a king to take any side in the likes and dislikes his bannermen have towards each other.

"Down there is the Legion Headquarters and besides it the Planar Terminal..." The two of you walk the streets at a amble pace, pointing out important landmarks and discussing what they represent not just to the city but the realm you are building. Who your freinds are as much as your enemies. "Yes, those are some traders from the Endless Sky, djinn-blooded, no they are not all proper mages, though they do have some power from their heritage..."

"The Shadow Tower where the Scholarum mages study is not visible from here, its wrapped in its own shadow, think of it as its own tiny bubble of existence that makes it far safer from any who would attack or steal from there, and the guardian constructs make it safer still." You motion to the ancient Saloshi guardians with their bows of iron and sorcery standing still as statues yet unwavering in vigilance.

"What ages does it teach?" Lord Tytos asks, the timber of the question subtly different from those he had posed before, sharper and more focused.

"Well, the youngest student is seven and the oldest is three score and seven," you reply remembering Teana's last report. The latter number was likely to get a lot higher if any of the Singers who had been asking questions about 'human magic' recently decided to try their hand at it, but that you do not add. It had been enough of a shock for Lord Blackwood to see one of the Children of the Forest haggling over the price of a spell-sung bow with potential buyers in the bazaar. No need to bring up the posibility that some of them might take up wizardry.

However surprised the Lord of Raventree might be at the sights and sounds of Sorcerer's Deep his eye is still sharp and his mind sharper. You pass through the Godswood where Leshies walk among twined branches and sun wolves leap among the pools of light, he knows the former at once as kin to the wolves of the Night's Watch and the former as some of the spirits sighted in the Riverlands aiding the Lads. "Having the eye of the gods themselves on that lot likely helps..." he mutters under his breath. Clear enough that he does not approve of raids and ambushes, but he does not disapprove enough to bring it up to you in so many words.

There is far too much to see to linger overlong upon the thought, and it seems that he finds all of it heartening for the fate of the Seven Kingdoms.

As the visit nears its end in the red light of twilight, for a lord cannot afford to remain missing by sorcery from his keep for long without arousing suspicion, you consider what to fill the night with.

What do you do next?

[] Witness the First of the Mind Dragons emerge from the Flesh Forge (will include Varys' hatchlings)

[] Return to the Riverlands to speak to the Ghost of the High Heart

[] Speak with the Red Priests of Volantis and commune with the Red God himself to ask for aid against Tiamat

[] Set up a meeting with either a powerful enough servant or manifestation of Weeping Lady of Lys' power to ask for aid against Tiamat

[] Have a personal meeting with the Chosen of Smith

[] Receive reports on the Genie War, including the performance of the wyverns

[] Write in


OOC: Don't worry about missing the Mind Dragons if you do not pick them this vote. They will be woken with Viserys there.
 
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