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A Sword Without a Hilt: A Song of Ice and Fire/D&D 3.5 Crossover

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The Yi-Ti interlude arc is the gift that just keeps on giving, @DragonParadox. Things sound very exciting for Tyene and crew over in Planetosi Asia.
Abhishek M said:
Can Yss empower Coatl Zathir makes? Without usurping dominion over them? Because I'd like a CR 20 Mighty Creature of Legeng Gigantean Coatl.
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Duesal said:
Let's hold off on that. It's more than a little weird to have Zathir be CR 20 and yet have Coatls who are casually CR 20 alongside him.
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Coatls will be nice to have, but as Duesal already pointed out, they're Outsiders so not eligible for the Flesh Forge. Once Zathir grows stronger enough to create them, we can hopefully find some way to give him a power boost to create more. No rush, though. He hasn't been ascended for very long.
 
Artemis1992 said:
Simplest option seems to be not to meet Lil' Emps in court at all, but instead discreetly inform him personally of the issue.
Then he can solve it on his own, frame the situation as "Oni have eaten my cousin" with no mention of the possible willingly made deal and he looks good for having his agents kill demonic infiltrators.
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The reason @DragonParadox says it is hard for Tyene to gauge how much influence the Emps really has, also means that it is REALLY hard to guess if it would be practical or possible to arrange a private meeting with him. His daily life is monitored around the clock, so unlike Viserys who is master and commander in whatever room he WALKS INTO even if it is another Lord's keep, she just doesn't know if he's barely a step above prisoner in his own palace, does his power only extend into certain bureaus and positions?

This is important to know because if he can't trust the people who would provide him a cover...

And Sending isn't a great way to deliver a report, no. And delivering information to him in secret is a gaffe for US since it proves we can get that close to him and even if he trusted us, would someone who can't even sleep peacefully at night without taking a tonic want that hanging over their head that we have more freedom of his palace than he does?
 
Crake said:
The reason @DragonParadox says it is hard for Tyene to gauge how much influence the Emps really has, also means that it is REALLY hard to guess if it would be practical or possible to arrange a private meeting with him. His daily life is monitored around the clock, so unlike Viserys who is master and commander in whatever room he WALKS INTO even if it is another Lord's keep, she just doesn't know if he's barely a step above prisoner in his own palace, does his power only extend into certain bureaus and positions?

This is important to know because if he can't trust the people who would provide him a cover...

And Sending isn't a great way to deliver a report, no. And delivering information to him in secret is a gaffe for US since it proves we can get that close to him and even if he trusted us, would someone who can't even sleep peacefully at night without taking a tonic want that hanging over their head that we have more freedom of his palace than he does?
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We did prove that already.
Remember when we killed the guy who ambushed him while he was almost alone?

We can visit him in his bed when only the girl that was there for the assassination is with him.
We can visit his dreams.
We can replace some minor courtier and talk to him while an Illusion runs that lets most of the court believe he's getting a very boring report over the river-fishers further south.
 
Crake said:
The reason @DragonParadox says it is hard for Tyene to gauge how much influence the Emps really has, also means that it is REALLY hard to guess if it would be practical or possible to arrange a private meeting with him. His daily life is monitored around the clock, so unlike Viserys who is master and commander in whatever room he WALKS INTO even if it is another Lord's keep, she just doesn't know if he's barely a step above prisoner in his own palace, does his power only extend into certain bureaus and positions?

This is important to know because if he can't trust the people who would provide him a cover...

And Sending isn't a great way to deliver a report, no. And delivering information to him in secret is a gaffe for US since it proves we can get that close to him and even if he trusted us, would someone who can't even sleep peacefully at night without taking a tonic want that hanging over their head that we have more freedom of his palace than he does?
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It doesn't matter if he is or isnt. So long as the meeting is secure and only he is informed. If he is monitored it's just a matter of getting around it. By custom the Emperors authority is absolute. Even if he is subverted covertly it can only be covertly.

Let him how around any monitoring ability to detect and it helps him even more to make a power move. It tells him potential jailers that they dont have him as cornered as they though. That he has assets they dont know about for they dont know how long. And they cant call him out on it.

Basically at a point where he gets around their control to do something like this. They have to assume they were the ones being played.

That actually incentivizes him letting us take care of the Oni without him watchers knowing. Saying to them he has assets capable of going toe to toe with elite monsters covertly without them ever knowing they even existed.

The whole mandate from heaven thing was always a bluff. Stuff like this is what sells it.

They way you keep an Absolute Ruler prisoner is by making sure only you serve as his method of exerting "his" rule. The moment that doesnt hold true without you ever realizing how you have to atleast consider the possibility that you were never in control.
 
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Artemis1992 said:
We did prove that already.
Remember when we killed the guy who ambushed him while he was almost alone?

We can visit him in his bed when only the girl that was there for the assassination is with him.
We can visit his dreams.
We can replace some minor courtier and talk to him while an Illusion runs that lets most of the court believe he's getting a very boring report over the river-fishers further south.
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We could, but it's the opposite of politically expedient to do any of this and constantly remind him of the fact.

Court protocol is a pain but it's also a tool in our favor to keep the emperor and his nobles from freaking out when interacting with us.
 
Duesal said:
We could, but it's the opposite of politically expedient to do any of this and constantly remind him of the fact.

Court protocol is a pain but it's also a tool in our favor to keep the emperor and his nobles from freaking out when interacting with us.
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Basically this. He's already upgrading his security procedures while simultaneously feeling grateful toward us. While we are sanguine enough to just thank the person who is constantly testing our defenses in a helpful and friendly manner, not everyone is like that. Unfortunately. :V
 
Crake said:
Basically this. He's already upgrading his security procedures while simultaneously feeling grateful toward us. While we are sanguine enough to just thank the person who is constantly testing our defenses in a helpful and friendly manner, not everyone is like that. Unfortunately. :V
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Then let it be his problem.

He already arranged for a meeting with just his Courtmage, Swordmaster and concubine once, he can do it again if we message him that he might really want to keep what we are about to tell him lowkey.
 
Duesal said:
We could, but it's the opposite of politically expedient to do any of this and constantly remind him of the fact.

Court protocol is a pain but it's also a tool in our favor to keep the emperor and his nobles from freaking out when interacting with us.
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Meh! I've wanted to see a meeting of the Emperors for a while now. Lay out a offer of mutual trade and support against Fiendish and Abberant threats. Clear ties and boundaries.

Weve have almost enough for a private meeting with the Azure Emperor once the fleet reaches. We should look into the other powers too. Get the neutral trade partner and alliance against inhuman threats going.

Stick clear of their fights with each other but assure our neutrality in human politics and unconditional support against anything Fiendish.

Artemis1992 said:
Then let it be his problem.

He already arranged for a meeting with just his Courtmage, Swordmaster and concubine once, he can do it again if we message him that he might really want to keep what we are about to tell him lowkey.
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Aww, but I want another CR 18-20 sacrifice. A Wind Oni with Class Levels would be a nice catch. We need more names too.
 
Abhishek M said:
Meh! I've wanted to see a meeting of the Emperors for a while now. Lay out a offer of mutual trade and support against Fiendish and Abberant threats. Clear ties and boundaries.

Weve have almost enough for a private meeting with the Azure Emperor once the fleet reaches. We should look into the other powers too. Get the neutral trade partner and alliance against inhuman threats going.

Stick clear of their fights with each other but assure our neutrality in human politics and unconditional support against anything Fiendish.
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That meeting won't be happening for a while. Also I wouldn't agree to neutrality in human politics. We might still decide we like the Orange Emperor better, for example, and we're not handicapping ourselves with this sort of promise.
 
Duesal said:
That meeting won't be happening for a while. Also I wouldn't agree to neutrality in human politics. We might still decide we like the Orange Emperor better, for example, and we're not handicapping ourselves with this sort of promise.
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Neutralility is more along the lines of "we have no immediate plans to teleport a Hundred thousand troops into your capital city" kind of neutrality. Political intrigue and individual chicanery is expected courtesy in dealing with neutral parties.

Basically saying we are shopping around the local rulers for trade and loot. But we'd still drop everything and teleport over to take care of any Lung Dragon that looks at you funny...so ling as we get the corpse of course. Seriously though we are in Yi Ti to make sure the world doesnt blow up from this side of the continent any time soon and maybe get some nice oriental bling along the way.

Help any of the local despots clear their monsters and get asian loot. Support anyone you want but we haven't even drawn up the plans for conquering Quohor yet let alone Yi Ti. I'd leave them to their infighting for a decade or two while we consolidate the Imperium to standard. But Oni are being a hassle.


So as is I'd bote to get them all on side to atleast clear their own Fiends if money of them can be of any help against the Yellow Emperor.
 
Abhishek M said:
Aww, but I want another CR 18-20 sacrifice. A Wind Oni with Class Levels would be a nice catch. We need more names too.
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That is unrelated.
I mean let "arrange the meeting" be his problem, not the actual Oni.

He might have people who can deal with that, but I doubt it.
Maybe if he can order the Kami that helped us stop the summoner around, but I'm not sure that is the case.
 
While you all are on the topic of court protocol of Yi-Ti, please take note of this little action we voted on for 11th month, and which probably had been in-works throughout the month, @Duesal, @Crake, @Artemis1992:
egoo said:
[X] Have our Diplomacy corps make moves to set up a personal meeting with Azure Emperor.
-[X] The goal being us sharing the lore on "Enemies of all" with each-other (Yi-Ti is bound to have unique lore on Void - having lived through the Long Night - and Bloodstone Emperor; whereas we have extensive knowledge of Devils, Illithids and Others (as a new tool of the Void).
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Just an FYI, since not many read through, let alone remember, the things on the list.
 
Abhishek M said:
Neutralility is more along the lines of "we have no immediate plans to teleport a Hundred thousand troops into your capital city" kind of neutrality. Political intrigue and individual chicanery is expected courtesy in dealing with neutral parties.

Basically saying we are shopping around the local rulers for trade and loot. But we'd still drop everything and teleport over to take care of any Lung Dragon that looks at you funny...so ling as we get the corpse of course. Seriously though we are in Yi Ti to make sure the world doesnt blow up from this side of the continent any time soon and maybe get some nice oriental bling along the way.

Help any of the local despots clear their monsters and get asian loot. Support anyone you want but we haven't even drawn up the plans for conquering Quohor yet let alone Yi Ti. I'd leave them to their infighting for a decade or two while we consolidate the Imperium to standard. But Oni are being a hassle.


So as is I'd bote to get them all on side to atleast clear their own Fiends if money of them can be of any help against the Yellow Emperor.
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Promises mean something to Viserys, though. Sure, now we're not looking to take Yi Ti, but five years down the line? Ten? I am very much against agreeing to perpetually stay neutral in mortal politics there. We can stay polite and distant, fine, but this sort of promise is a no-go.
 
Duesal said:
Promises mean something to Viserys, though. Sure, now we're not looking to take Yi Ti, but five years down the line? Ten? I am very much against agreeing to perpetually stay neutral in mortal politics there. We can stay polite and distant, fine, but this sort of promise is a no-go.
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An renewable non-hostility pact and other treaties are perfectly reasonable. The very fact that Viserys doesn't break his word, but still has to be courted "by other means" to stave off sanction, sabotage or aggression is encouragement to actively develop and maintain relations between our polities. And if we change our feelings as to the current ruler, we simply do not renew the treaty.

Technically we could even make generational length treaties with foreign powers and it wouldn't really matter in the long-run since we could potentially guide foreign policy for thousands of years.
 
Duesal said:
Promises mean something to Viserys, though. Sure, now we're not looking to take Yi Ti, but five years down the line? Ten? I am very much against agreeing to perpetually stay neutral in mortal politics there. We can stay polite and distant, fine, but this sort of promise is a no-go.
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Never said perpetually. Just that we have no intentions now. They wouldnt really ask for anymore anyway. As far as they know we are an upstart empire on the other side of the known world. No reason for them to ask for a guarantee we dont intend to conquer them. Screw them on trade or assist their political enemies against them is more likely to them. That doesnt really matter to us at the moment and wont matter when we get around to Yi Ti.

And besides IC do we even want to conquer the entire planet? It's pretty likely to happen by itself long term but if they never get uppity or problematic enough for us to have to deal with and are generally competent administratively why even bother?
 
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Crake said:
An renewable non-hostility pact and other treaties are perfectly reasonable. The very fact that Viserys doesn't break his word, but still has to be courted "by other means" to stave off sanction, sabotage or aggression is encouragement to actively develop and maintain relations between our polities. And if we change our feelings as to the current ruler, we simply do not renew the treaty.

Technically we could even make generational length treaties with foreign powers and it wouldn't really matter in the long-run since we could potentially guide foreign policy for thousands of years.
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We could, but I'd very much prefer not making anything close to a generational length non-hostility pact.
 
Duesal said:
We could, but I'd very much prefer not making anything close to a generational length non-hostility pact.
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I don't see us having the resources, in time, money or war assets to prosecute a war of subjugation upon Yi Ti until about that much time has passed regardless. And we have more than enough other fish to fry.
 
Crake said:
I don't see us having the resources, in time, money or war assets to prosecute a war of subjugation upon Yi Ti until about that much time has passed regardless. And we have more than enough other fish to fry.
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For me it's less about the intent to do these things and more about a strong distaste on my part to closing off the option for what amounts to the entire quest. Moreover we're still in the exploratory phase for Yi Tish diplomacy. I'd rather not cling to the Azure Emperor before getting the chance to consider other options. There's the Orange Emperor in Trader Town and even the Yellow Emperor in Carcosa if we're lucky and he's not an agent of Hastur.

If you want a treaty that's mutually renewed every few years? Fine. But I have a problem with jumping straight to a generational treaty.
 
Duesal said:
For me it's less about the intent to do these things and more about a strong distaste on my part to closing off the option for what amounts to the entire quest. Moreover we're still in the exploratory phase for Yi Tish diplomacy. I'd rather not cling to the Azure Emperor before getting the chance to consider other options. There's the Orange Emperor in Trader Town and even the Yellow Emperor in Carcosa if we're lucky and he's not an agent of Hastur.

If you want a treaty that's mutually renewed every few years? Fine. But I have a problem with jumping straight to a generational treaty.
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This is highly irrational... I understand, but this would be the norm for politics at this high of a level.

Regardless I don't really care about Yi Ti. We are only there right now to counter our real enemies. They are at the very back of my mind otherwise.
 
Crake said:
This is highly irrational... I understand, but this would be the norm for politics at this high of a level.

Regardless I don't really care about Yi Ti. We are only there right now to counter our real enemies. They are at the very back of my mind otherwise.
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I was just concerned since it seemed like minds were being made up about our approach here when we haven't fully explored other opposing options. For all we know the Orange Emperor could be a far more ideal candidate for us since he's not strangled by the same bureaucracy and tradition that the Azure Emperor is.
Abhishek M said:
And besides IC do we even want to conquer the entire planet? It's pretty likely to happen by itself long term but if they never get uppity or problematic enough for us to have to deal with and are generally competent administratively why even bother?
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Abhishek M said:
IC not OoC :V :p.
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Yes, that's an IC goal at this point, and has been acknowledged multiple times in the story. The planet will be ours eventually. If we stumble across a society with slavery we get to use force to conquer it, and if we find a more peaceful society like the Summer Islands we just use diplomacy and/or economic incentives to bring them into the fold.
 
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Duesal said:
I'm was just concerned since it seemed like minds were being made up about our approach here when we haven't fully explored other opposing options. For all we know the Orange Emperor could be a far more ideal candidate for us since he's not strangled by the same bureaucracy and tradition that the Azure Emperor is.


Yes, that's an IC goal at this point, and has been acknowledged multiple times in the story. The planet will be ours eventually. If we stumble across a society with slavery we get to use force to conquer it, and if we find a more peaceful society like the Summer Islands we just use diplomacy and/or economic incentives to bring them into the fold.
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Protectorate status is a perfectly acceptable end result to me under these circumstances, even if obtaining it takes a few generations. They will still be providing us trade under ideal circumstances, and if they deny us the chance to economically exploi--I mean mutually benefit from financial exchange, we can just... make things difficult for them. Trade tariffs as a start.
 
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