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A Sword Without a Hilt: A Song of Ice and Fire/D&D 3.5 Crossover

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Deliste said:
What he is describing is permanent death for them.
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Only if they fail a DC 25 Fortitude save, assuming that is a limitation DP actually decides to include, which he may very well not see as necessary.

That's not a low DC by any means, but it's hardly a death sentence. With even just a little bit of gear added to their attribute and class bonuses, that could easily have a 50/50 survival rate.
 
Goldfish said:
Only if they fail a DC 25 Fortitude save, assuming that is a limitation DP actually decides to include, which he may very well not see as necessary.

That's not a low DC by any means, but it's hardly a death sentence. With even just a little bit of gear added to their attribute and class bonuses, that could easily have a 50/50 survival rate.
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I'd feel better with DC20.
 
Goldfish said:
Only if they fail a DC 25 Fortitude save, assuming that is a limitation DP actually decides to include, which he may very well not see as necessary.

That's not a low DC by any means, but it's hardly a death sentence. With even just a little bit of gear added to their attribute and class bonuses, that could easily have a 50/50 survival rate.
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That's why I feel confident in that ruling. 50/50 odds I think is more than fair for something that is a pretty serious consequence and it also informs on the relationship between Viserys and his Dragon Vassals. They are linked just as soul-deep as a rider and their dragon, deeper actually, since a dragon can outlive their rider and vice versa.
 
Crake said:
That is trivial to pass. Truly, even for an NPC with elite array. There are all kinds of ways to get more bonuses.
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True but that implies preparedness for it. For any real numbers spread over the Imperium that isnt likely for a sudden violent death of the Monarch. Makes it so anyone not prepared doesnt basically flip a coin to see if they drop dead on heads but still feel the death and some dont make it succumbing to the loss.
 
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Abhishek M said:
True but that implies preparedness for it. For any real numbers spread over the Imperium that isnt likely for a sudden violent death of the Monarch. Makes it so anyone not prepared basically doesnt basically flip a coin to see if they drop dead but still feel the death and some dont make it.
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Look, the fact of the matter is, any lower and there's no real consequences to application of this template.

The complaints about it being "too fucking expensive" to invest in a admittedly rather cool and strong elite that can autonomously continue operating with Viserys alive or dead leading into "give us arbitrary numbers of equally strong super soldiers and allow us to circumnavigate around all penalties with mechanical cheese please and thank you" is really rubbing me the wrong way, especially considering there are no mechanical disadvantages to speak of while Viserys is still alive and well.

Killing Viserys involves quite a few hoops to jump through. If it ever happens, why would you want to be robbed of the feeling of raw pain and anger that your loyal servants suffered with you? Why deny the chance to chase vengeance for them? From a story perspective those are nice moments to experience.
 
Crake said:
Look, the fact of the matter is, any lower and there's no real consequences to application of this template.

The complaints about it being "too fucking expensive" to invest in a admittedly rather cool and strong elite that can autonomously continue operating with Viserys alive or dead leading into "give us arbitrary numbers of equally strong super soldiers and allow us to circumnavigate around all penalties with mechanical cheese please and thank you" is really rubbing me the wrong way, especially considering there are no mechanical disadvantages to speak of while Viserys is still alive and well.

Killing Viserys involves quite a few hoops to jump through. If it ever happens, why would you want to be robbed of the feeling of raw pain and anger that your loyal servants suffered with you? Why deny the chance to chase vengeance for them? From a story perspective those are nice moments to experience.
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Alright, you've convinced me. But dont they also automatically lose the template if Viserys dies? Or am I remembering that wrong? Well I guess it doesnt matter.
 
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Abhishek M said:
Alright, you've convinced me. But dont they also automatically lose the template if Viserys dies?
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No, I'm pretty sure they keep it.

The Dragon Dream keeps connections alive, since Viserys' nascent spirit will go to join it.

Edit: Now if he experienced true Soul Death from like the Void, or something, then there'd be interference.
 
Abhishek M said:
True but that implies preparedness for it. For any real numbers spread over the Imperium that isnt likely for a sudden violent death of the Monarch. Makes it so anyone not prepared doesnt basically flip a coin to see if they drop dead on heads but still feel the death and some dont make it succumbing to the loss.
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It's not a matter of preparing to prevent their death, but of simply being tough because they have a high Fortitude save, which is helpful against all sorts of dangerous magical supernatural effects, not to mention disease, poison, exhaustion, etc.

A 6th level Dragon Vassal Fighter has a base Fortitude save of +5.

With the +6 Constitution from the template and a +2 Constitution boosting item (only 400 IM and already standard issue among our baby adventurers) they should have a Constitution attribute of at least 22. That's another +6 bonus to their Fortitude save.

The template adds another +2 bonus to all saves, Fortitude included.

And an item with a +2 Resistance bonus only costs 400 IM and would likely be standard issue for our super-soldiers.

That's a constant Fortitude save bonus of +15, which could be further modified by gaining additional levels, another +2 from the Great Fortitude feat, and so on.

Basically, going lower than DC 25 would be trivializing the side-effect a bit too much to call it a side-effect.
 
Goldfish said:
It's not a matter of preparing to prevent their death, but of simply being tough because they have a high Fortitude save, which is helpful against all sorts of dangerous magical supernatural effects, not to mention disease, poison, exhaustion, etc.

A 6th level Dragon Vassal Fighter has a base Fortitude save of +5.

With the +6 Constitution from the template and a +2 Constitution boosting item (only 400 IM and already standard issue among our baby adventurers) they should have a Constitution attribute of at least 22. That's another +6 bonus to their Fortitude save.

The template adds another +2 bonus to all saves, Fortitude included.

And an item with a +2 Resistance bonus only costs 400 IM and would likely be standard issue for our super-soldiers.

That's a constant Fortitude save bonus of +15, which could be further modified by gaining additional levels, another +2 from the Great Fortitude feat, and so on.

Basically, going lower than DC 25 would be trivializing the side-effect a bit too much to call it a side-effect.
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Huh didnt know they were that high. Ok, so we try for this next turn right? Shift the Pratorean research efforts to this first maybe? Pratorean after?
 
Abhishek M said:
Huh didnt know they were that high. Ok, so we try for this next turn right? Shift the Pratorean research efforts to this first maybe? Pratorean after?
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It all depends on what DP says. We'll still have to use a Research Action to unlock the template.

If it's possible, I would rather completely replace the Praetorian Project with Dragon Vassalage. it's so much more thematic (sorry for throwing that word around so much lately, but if the shoes fits...).
 
I agree on replacing though I will once again note that the idea of graft empowered super soldiers is going to come about naturally simply due to the ability of our citizens to pursue it personally.

Kytons and a healthy flesh-forging industry will ensure that I guarantee it, the only difference is that there will be more individualism in the models rather than a state backed template.

In practice what will end up happening is DP or someone will get inspired for an elite and give them a graft or two to explain some of their success.

We might start colonising the Underdark and a bunch of people give themselves Darkvision the same way out Sothyros forces are commissioning grafts in direct response to the threats they face on a daily basis.
 
Goldfish said:
It all depends on what DP says. We'll still have to use a Research Action to unlock the template.

If it's possible, I would rather completely replace the Praetorian Project with Dragon Vassalage. it's so much more thematic (sorry for throwing that word around so much lately, but if the shoes fits...).
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Hopefully we can make more than 360 a year. The Symbiote project next after which ever one gets done sound good? For the rank and file?
 
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Deliste said:
I agree on replacing though I will once again note that the idea of graft empowered super soldiers is going to come about naturally simply due to the ability of our citizens to pursue it personally.

Kytons and a healthy flesh-forging industry will ensure that I guarantee it, the only difference is that there will be more individualism in the models rather than a state backed template.

In practice what will end up happening is DP or someone will get inspired for an elite and give them a graft or two to explain some of their success.

We might start colonising the Underdark and a bunch of people give themselves Darkvision the same way out Sothyros forces are commissioning grafts in direct response to the threats they face on a daily basis.
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Dragon Grafts would be a nice upgrade for Dragon Vassals, especially if the grafts didn't cost them HP thanks to their Vassalage.
 
Abhishek M said:
Now that would be broken. Even Viserys had to pay HP for grafts.
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Not really broken at all. Back when Viserys would have had to pay HP for those grafts, he was merely a Dragonblooded Human, not even able to assume Half-Dragon form, IIRC.

The grafts aren't that amazing, either. Most aren't even very good, to be honest. Just thought it would be a neat perk.
 
Dragon Grafts are some of the worst even ignoring cost, of course not worse than nothing but certainly worse than a variety of alternative grafts.
 
Goldfish said:
Not really broken at all. Back when Viserys would have had to pay HP for those grafts, he was merely a Dragonblooded Human, not even able to assume Half-Dragon form, IIRC.

The grafts aren't that amazing, either. Most aren't even very good, to be honest. Just thought it would be a neat perk.
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Well depends on what DP thinks I guess. Would be nice but a mite broken since we can make Draconic grafts in bulk from the Flesh Forge now that we have it. It is pretty much just a money issue now rather than finding a dragon to slay and cut up afterall.
 
Lets see what dp rules but if the research cost of dragon vassals is more or equal to Praetori then it does not seem worth it to RA spend time on, at least we have plenty of gold to make them. Especially because Praetori dont have to roll to live or fall over dead if mc dies in one of our many many high cr battles.
 
Hey Cryptstone sounds useful. You guys think the Shaitan would have a supply? Or would we have to go break up some old mausoleums? I'm mostly thinking of it as Incorporeal undead effecting Cannon ammunition for our launchers, beetle bombs and cannons.
 
I personally prefer Praetorians to Dragon Vassals, simply because the former feel more nuanced.

They are more detailed, have more fluff to them, and are a bit better balanced cost-wise in my opinion, insofar ad such can be said of essentially "forging" PCs out of level 5+ people.

Also theoretically gets us more than 360 people a year, which is important long-term (although, perhaps beyond the scope of the quest as such)

The RA to get them may be old, yes - but it is still incredibly thematic, and fitting to our general practices.

I wont salt around if they are dropped, but I would still prefer them.

Bottom line, they are more of Space Marines than Dragon Vassals are (what with all the awesome, varied plant-implants), and that counts for a lot :sour:
 
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Abhishek M said:
Hey Cryptstone sounds useful. You guys think the Shaitan would have a supply? Or would we have to go break up some old mausoleums? I'm mostly thinking of it as Incorporeal undead effecting Cannon ammunition for our launchers, beetle bombs and cannons.
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That's pretty interesting. Super niche, but it wouldn't hurt to have a supply of the stuff for our Inquisitors.
 
Abhishek M said:
Eh, something to hold and damage wraiths and such atleast. Plus minor bonus to damage undead. Just a special ammo material overall.

Say what is the 360 a year limit on the Dragon Vassal thing anyway?
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Just part of a hypothetical limit Crake proposed, preventing us from creating more of them per month than Viserys' level plus his Mythic Tier. So at 20th level and 10th Mythic Tier, we could produce 30 per month or 360 per year.

If that limitation is implemented, we would currently be able to produce 20 per month.
 
As an arbitrary balancing factor the fluff is the only thing that changes, it would apply to Praetorian's because that's the amount of mentally suitable candidates of sufficient skill we might find, same thing for symbiotes etc

I can see the waters getting muddy already with statements like these .

egoo said:
Also theoretically gets us more than 360 people a year, which is important long-term (although, perhaps beyond the scope of the quest as such)
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Yes @egoo I recognise you said "theoretically".

There's no RAW limit to Dragon Vassals so anything being hypothetically discussed as limiting factors, whether they seem first to apply to Dragon Vassals or Praetorians or Symbiotes, just basically copy and paste the limitation for any other competing plan.
 
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