I want all of that stuff just removed entirely. It's creepy and not something Viserys, Dany, or most of our other associates would approve of. Making it work with buff effects instead would be much too power, IMO.

I don't want it to interfere with spellcasting, but it's a limitation I could accept without issue if DP rules that way.

What if their casting potential is locked, except as a Cleric pulling from =/Mythic Tier ability for granted domain casters that Viserys gets? So they can't be sorcerers or wizards but they can use the magic we grant to them.

Thematic, no?
 
I want all of that stuff just removed entirely. It's creepy and not something Viserys, Dany, or most of our other associates would approve of. Making it work with buff effects instead would be much too power, IMO.
Its indeed not very useful and out of place, but If you want to tack on so many weaknesses and costs to it then it has to go in the other direction and be worthwhile too. It already gives +2LA.
I dont mind removing them entirely and not switching them out for buffs but in that case the weaknesses should be reduced a little.
For example, since the link will be much less than the normal template this could be changed to:-
Requiring all Dragon Vassals to succeed on a Fortitude save (DC 25 maybe?) or fall over dead if Viserys dies would be another acceptable side-effect.
Requiring all Dragon Vassals to succeed on a Fortitude save (DC 25 maybe?) or fall into a coma if Viserys dies and only reawaken if he gets resurrected.
 
Disagree massively. The save is fine, the no chance for extreme consequences not so much.
Single point of failure for our entire command structure and all our elites is something that I will never advocate for. The save is already too high to succeed for level 5s with a high chance. I wouldn't mind removing the save entirely and just going with a flat penelty.
 
Last edited:
It's from the Bestiary of Krynn book. I want us to be able to use a version without the creepy surveillance function, though.


Limited numbers created per month would be a good start, like you suggested elsewhere. Viserys' level + Mythic tier seems like a good limit to me.

Requiring all Dragon Vassals to succeed on a Fortitude save (DC 25 maybe?) or fall over dead if Viserys dies would be another acceptable side-effect.

Requiring those who wish to become Dragon Vassals to be at least 5th level or higher makes sense, and having it interfere with a mage's ability to use magic would be acceptable as well.

Put an exception in the magic thing for Dragonblooded Sorcerors. Would fit better. Same for Clerics of Viserys too. Basically anybody who draws magic from their Draconic blood already or from Viserys should not have this interfere with them.

Maybe make the surveylance thing a willing thing as well? Makes sense and we already track all soldiers anyway. Just let them switch it off. Like a redundant soldier tracking system.
 
Last edited:
Single point of failure for our entire command structure and all our elites is something that I will never advocate for. The save is already too high to succeed for level 5s with a high chance. I wouldn't mind removing the save entirely and just going with a flat penelty.
It wouldn't be for the command structure at all, but for combat soldiers. Nothing about the template makes one a more effective leader or commander, so we shouldn't be handing it out to those who will be giving order rathers than fighting.
 
Disagree massively. The save is fine, the no chance for extreme consequences not so much.

A coma is a pretty damn extreme consequence, and will often result in their death anyway considering their duties.

In fact arguably it is a worse consequence to the system as a whole considering they're now helpless liabilities rather than losses already cut.
 
Single point of failure for our entire command structure and all our elites is something that I will never advocate for. The save is already too high to succeed for level 5s with a high chance. I wouldn't mind removing the save entirely and just going with a flat penelty.

It is not too high. Succeeds for most Elite Array a non-insignificant amount of time. +4 from class levels, +2 racial bonus, +5 to +6 from Constitution = +11/+12 Fortitude Bonus. Pass when rolling 13~ or higher.
 
Put an exception in the magic thing for Dragonblooded Sorcerors. Would fit better. Same for Clerics of Viserys too. Basically anybody who draws magic from their Draconic blood already or from Viserys should not have this interfere with them.
It fits, but I would prefer @Crake's suggestion of locking them in to Cleric magic granted by Viserys once he gains the Divine Source Mythic power. That's even more fitting to the theme, IMO.
 
That can work, locking them into magic granted by Divine Source Mythic power fits pretty well.
It is not too high. Succeeds for most Elite Array a non-insignificant amount of time. +4 from class levels, +2 racial bonus, +5 to +6 from Constitution = +11/+12 Fortitude Bonus. Pass when rolling 13~ or higher.
My mistake I thought they had much lower bonuses.
 
Death for combat soldiers on the front line due to backlash is preferable considering being captured is a fate worse than death in most cases.
 
Even so, is the benefit of all these bonuses worth having single point of failure for anyone we enhance? Maybe we can spread out the failure points by taking the scales from all our dragons as such not all the dragon vassals will be linked only to mc.
 
Even so, is the benefit of all these bonuses worth having single point of failure for anyone we enhance? Maybe we can spread out the fail points by taking the scales from all our dragons as such not all the dragon vassals will be linked only to mc.
Your point is rather moot since not taking advantage of the maximum number we can create each month is akin to passing up the chance to make more, and just creating a new point of failure in that their direct loyalty is always going to be to the one they are soul-bonded to out of a simple matter of practicality. While we hold their lord in vassalage, that relationship is tenuous at best, and I expect it to be challenged at various times. Those times would be way more tense if they had a non-insignificant number of elite operatives in our armed forces loyal only to them.
 
Even so, is the benefit of all these bonuses worth having single point of failure for anyone we enhance? Maybe we can spread out the failure points by taking the scales from all our dragons as such not all the dragon vassals will be linked only to mc.
Viserys is exceptionally difficult to kill. We've put a lot of effort and resources into assuring that. If he dies for some reason, the least of our worries will be a few hundreds low to mid-level Dragon Vassals falling over dead.

It's a nice fluff-related and appropriately thematic limitation that shouldn't be much of an issue.

EDIT: It's even kind of poignant. Volunteers know going into the process that their lives are becoming intricately linked to that of the Dragon King. That could easily be seen as a point of pride rather than a liability.
 
Last edited:
I want all of that stuff just removed entirely. It's creepy and not something Viserys, Dany, or most of our other associates would approve of. Making it work with buff effects instead would be much too power, IMO.

I don't want it to interfere with spellcasting, but it's a limitation I could accept without issue if DP rules that way.
Dont like removing things entirely without putting something in its place. Maybe switch the dominate and Detect thoughts stuff with they always qualifying for being effected by that new ability Viserys got? They will have one of his scales melded to their bodies that counts as him being in their presence right? That would be a nice alternate.
 
Last edited:
Yes, it all wraps back around to the fact that if we are busy dying, the Imperium has much bigger problems than losing access to some elite operatives. By several orders of magnitude.

Assuming we create Vassals mostly out of humans, the maximum number we can create a year is around 360. At any one time we might have tens of thousands of them, but I doubt it, probably more like ten thousand at various ages and levels of experience, as I expect them to have a monstrously high turnover rate.
 
Your point is rather moot since not taking advantage of the maximum number we can create each month is akin to passing up the chance to make more, and just creating a new point of failure in that their direct loyalty is always going to be to the one they are soul-bonded to out of a simple matter of practicality. While we hold their lord in vassalage, that relationship is tenuous at best, and I expect it to be challenged at various times. Those times would be way more tense if they had a non-insignificant number of elite operatives in our armed forces loyal only to them.
Isnt Viserys in his capstone basically immortal short of the fall of the entire Imperium anyway? At that point would his body getting blasted for a bit trigger the thing?
 
Isnt Viserys in his capstone basically immortal short of the fall of the entire Imperium anyway? At that point would his body getting blasted for a bit trigger the thing?

Yes. While he will revive, he is sort of "dead". The point of the backlash is feeling the trauma that Viserys feels from having died, even if he comes back a day later. After all, they don't have that advantage.
 
I still would prefer coma to death, specifically because of Viserys' Mythic Capstone.

The Empire lives while Viserys does and vice versa, his champions should mirror that.

Powerful while exercising his will, comatose while his power wanes from the world, reawakening when it returns.
 
Dont like removing things entirely without putting something in its place. Maybe switch the dominate and Detect thoughts stuff with they always qualifying for being effected by that new ability Viserys got? They will have one of his scales melded to their bodies that counts as him being in their presence right? That would be a nice alternate.
I asked DP if we could swap all of the surveillance and control magic out and just replace it with an effect similar to the Vassals being marked by a Dragoneye Rune. I think that is plenty.
 
Last edited:
I still would prefer coma to death, specifically because of Viserys' Mythic Capstone.

The Empire lives while Viserys does and vice versa, his champions should mirror that.

Powerful while exercising his will, comatose while his power wanes from the world, reawakening when it returns.

I would consider a switch from death to coma once we reach Mythic 10, but death before then. I feel like, at least for the immediate future, there should be some significant consequences to linking your soul to Viserys like that. Most people who actually "matter" IE Dragon Vassal PCs will be able to trivially make that save using items and base save bonuses, plus the racial bonus, plus their constitution bonuses.
 
I asked DP if we could swap all of the surveillance and control magic out and just replace it with an effect similar to the Vassals being marked by a 3m11KLP[/MEDIA]Dragoneye Rune. I think that is plenty.
Aww, wanted to replace the surveillance stuff with the option to have a quasy mind link. Like in battle with Viserys in the field they could willingly create a mind link with him. Like a little addition to Viserys's Beacon of Will ability.
 
Back
Top