- Location
- Germany
Vorpal +5 Book I hope.
A Sword Without a Hilt: A Song of Ice and Fire/D&D 3.5 Crossover
- Thread starter DragonParadox
- Start date
-
- Tags
- a song of ice and fire a sword without a hilt d&d 3.5 dungeons & dragons 100% high octane dragon fuel ave corvidae battle action dragon diplomacy best sister bureaucromancy delicious soul-stuff dragon dreams come true dragon ta'veren greatest uncle hubris is a coward's word in defiance of gods and men mammon's folly mutually assured mage's disjunction qm murderhobo top tier coatl
egoo
Totally Not Creating Problems Where None Existed
- Location
- Russia
...Everyone argues via reason, and here I am, just wanting Space Marine!Sandor and not much beyond that.
[
]
Goldfish
Friendly Spider-Fish Abomination
- Location
- Formerly of the Far Realm
I only used the Warden Seeker as an example based on similar CR. Another example would be a CR 6 Verdant Wolf, which would against be more useful than a Praetorian, tougher, faster, and more deadly in combat. Each one is much smarter than the average Human and far wiser. They would make excellent commanders, IMO. We could grow a pack of four for the price of one Praetorian.
Goldfish
Friendly Spider-Fish Abomination
- Location
- Formerly of the Far Realm
When I say improve I mean get the Fungal Forge up to CR 15 and to add more capabilities, like infant free Seekers, new and interesting templates, etc. Never exceeding the CR 15 limit is fine with me.@Duesal, @Goldfish, Just as a quick note I feel is important to share, after a bit of a discussion with DP, a previous ruling has been overturned.
We cannot, in fact, improve the Fleshforges anymore, as such.
Repair, yes, that's within our capabilities and easy enough now.
But they have been the result of centuries of madmen-mages min-maxing in a high-magic Empire.
Upgrading the Forges beyond making CR 15 is reasonably compared with trying to upgrade The Wall - we are far, far away from even starting such a project.
Okay, if Anime taught me anything, the Rakshasa is fucked.
egoo
Totally Not Creating Problems Where None Existed
- Location
- Russia
Mmhm, a problem with that, is that all Plant-creatures from Lys are naturally connected to OGs, and...
Well, it may be just me, but I think we are tying ourselves too closely to them.
They are a great ally, but we want them to remain a separate entity from the Empire, do we not?
Same reason I think Heart Trees need but a Cold!Immunity-upgrade and something for better DR - going on after that would be kinda pointless when we'd want Imperial Dream's cornerstones upgraded to such a degree instead, even if we can theoretically make H!Trees awesome(er) in every regard.
Think of it another way - we can make
We have the technology.
Glad to hear, because I expected a bit of a Salt at that, tbh.
*eyes a certain magpie warily*
Crake
I AM THE STORM THAT IS APPROACHING
- Location
- USA
One trade off there, Praetorians can top off at CR 8 fairly easily, and their capabilities and somewhat magical nature means they can probably continue leveling up.
A high leveled Praetorian Warlord would be... monumentally more dangerous than a pack of Verdant Wolves.
Is it at least a good book?
- Location
- United States
Verdant Wolves also aren't specced for command, whereas the Praetorians are. It feels you're trying to shoehorn any random Flesh Forged creature into a pretty specific role. For example, we wouldn't be giving a Lotus Leshy command of a Legion -- they're not suited for it and they're not trained to do it.
Also part of your argument revolved around pricing which frankly isn't an issue for us. We could lose 100,000 IM and not even blink.
Goldfish
Friendly Spider-Fish Abomination
- Location
- Formerly of the Far Realm
Assuming they ever break through the level 5 cap. The Praetorian package is effectively a +3 ECL template, so a 3rd level Praetorian is ECL 6. Getting to 5th level will be hard enough, but getting to 8th level will be extremely difficult.
Meanwhile, the Verdant Wolves, to keep with the example, don't need any equipment and are Immune to Mind-Affecting effects by default, can Treestride at will, and have a host of other useful abilities. When it's all said and done, after that standard Praetorian is equipped to spec, we could have six or seven Verdant Wolves for the same expense.
I would rather raise up normal adventurers and spend money on providing them with enchanted gear if we're expecting our assets to level naturally. It's much faster in the long run.
Crake
I AM THE STORM THAT IS APPROACHING
- Location
- USA
I always thought Praetorians were an expensive resource sink specifically because of the fact that if they were given PC level encounters, they would basically just be templated PCs with level adjustment to worry about. That's basically manufacturing heroes. The same conceit as space marines. Mass producing heroes rather than waiting for them to show up.
Edit: And for all that, I think investing too heavily in either Flesh Forging or Praetorians, or really Constructs or even PCs is a monumentally bad idea.
@Goldfish We need Praetorians because we need to diversify. If you can undermine one facet of a giant military machine you fuck our military over massively.
Edit: And for all that, I think investing too heavily in either Flesh Forging or Praetorians, or really Constructs or even PCs is a monumentally bad idea.
@Goldfish We need Praetorians because we need to diversify. If you can undermine one facet of a giant military machine you fuck our military over massively.
Last edited:
- Location
- United States
You don't start with a level 1 PC, the only candidates were going to be level 5 PCs, preferably Fighters. It's always been a given that Praetorians will very rarely level.
Crake
I AM THE STORM THAT IS APPROACHING
- Location
- USA
Basically no one is saying "no, don't use constructs", or "no, just use PCs" or "no, don't research better flesh forging" and they definitely shouldn't be saying "no, let's not figure out how to make our own loyal heroes".
We should be doing all of these things. One, because it is more interesting, and two, because as DP has hammered home, one or all facets of any institution can be undermined, so we need to have a lot of institutions to form the backbone and bedrock of our empire.
We should be doing all of these things. One, because it is more interesting, and two, because as DP has hammered home, one or all facets of any institution can be undermined, so we need to have a lot of institutions to form the backbone and bedrock of our empire.
Goldfish
Friendly Spider-Fish Abomination
- Location
- Formerly of the Far Realm
Hmm, a Common Rakshasa is CR 10, while a base Alu Demon is only CR 5.
Azema has a level of Cloistered Cleric on top of her base chassis, plus some decent gear and her two Contingency spells (Renewal Pact & Stalwart Pact). The Contingency spells are going to help a lot, because I don't think she can manage this fight on her own without them. She isn't likely to get through the Rakshasa's DR and even hitting it reliably will be difficult, but so long as she can keep it from casting spells and whittle it down with her Vampiric Touch ability, she has a solid chance.
Azema has a level of Cloistered Cleric on top of her base chassis, plus some decent gear and her two Contingency spells (Renewal Pact & Stalwart Pact). The Contingency spells are going to help a lot, because I don't think she can manage this fight on her own without them. She isn't likely to get through the Rakshasa's DR and even hitting it reliably will be difficult, but so long as she can keep it from casting spells and whittle it down with her Vampiric Touch ability, she has a solid chance.
Name: Azema
Alias: N/A
Age: Over four thousand years
Alignment: Chaotic Neutral
Race: Outsider (chaotic, demon, evil, native) - grants Darkvision 60ft
Speed 30 ft., fly 50 ft. (average)
Total Level: 7 Class: Alu Demon 6/Cloistered Cleric 1
Feats: Mindsight, Travel Devotion, Divine Might, Flaw (Free-Spirited), Flaw (Hedonistic), Knowledge Devotion (from Cloistered Cleric), Power Attack, Master Manipulator,
Class Features: Rebuke Undead
Domains: Liberation Domain, Passion Domain
HP: 6d8+1d6+21 (55 hp)
AC: 23/25, touch 13/15, flat-footed 20/22 (+3 Dex, +6 natural, +4 armor, +2 deflection vs Good)
Initiative: +3 (DEX)
Attack: +6 +4 (STR) + 1 (Necklace) = 2 claws +10/+10 (for 1d6+4, Vampiric Touch, Knowledge Devotion may apply), or +10/+5 Masterwork Razor-Sharp Adamantine Dagger (1d4+5)
Spell Save: 10 +3 (Wis) + spell level
Weapon Proficiency: Longsword, Simple Weapons, Light Armor
DR: 5/Cold Iron or Good
Immunities: Electricity, Poison, Possession/Mental Control
Resistances: Acid 10, Cold 10, Fire 10
SR: 17
STATS:
17 +1 = 18 (+4) Strength
15 +1 = 16 (+3) Dexterity
15 +1 = 16 (+3) Constitution
15 +1 = 16 (+3) Intelligence
15 +1 = 16 (+3) Wisdom
16 +2 = 18 (+4) Charisma
SAVES: (fractional saves used. Outsiders have all good saves.)
FORTITUDE: 5 + 3 +3 = 11
REFLEX: 5 + 3 +3 = 11
WILL: 5 + 3 +3 = 11
SKILLS:
Bluff: 10 +4 (CHA) = 14
Concentration: 10 +3 (CON) = 13
Diplomacy: 10 + 4 (CHA) +4 (SYN) = 18
Disguise: 10 +4 (CHA) +2 (SYN) = 16
Gather Information: 10 + 4 (CHA) =14
Intimidate: 5 +4 (CHA) +2 (SYN) = 11
Knowledge (Arcana): 3 +3 (INT) = 6
Knowledge (Religion): 5 +3 (INT) = 8
Knowledge (The Planes): 10 +3 (INT) = 13
Knowledge (Dungeoneering): 1 +3 (INT) = 4
Sense Motive: 10 +3 (WIS) = 13
Spellcraft: 10 +3 (INT) = 13
Spot: 0 + 3 (WIS) +4 (racial) = 7
Listen: 0 +3 (WIS) +4 (racial) = 7
SKILL TRICKS:
Collector of Stories: When you attempt a trained Knowledge check to identify a creature or to learn its special powers or vulnerabilities, you gain a +5 competence bonus on the check.
Second Impression: Once per day, if an observer sees through your disguise with a successful Spot check, you can (as an immediate action) attempt a Bluff check to convince all within 30ft that they're mistaken. Use the observer's Spot check result as the DC for your Bluff check; if you succeed, the observer ignores the evidence of his own senses in favor of what your disguise attempts to show. You must be aware of the observer's discovery in order to use this trick.
Vampiric Touch (Su): An Alu-Demon gains temporary hit points equal to the damage dealt each time she successfully hits with a claw attack. She cannot gain more than her target's current hit points + the target's Con score (which is enough to kill the target). The temporary hit points disappear in one hour.
Rebuke Undead (+2 Skill bonus to check) (6/day)
Liberation(Su): If you are affected by a charm, compulsion or fear effect and fail your saving throw, you can attempt it again 1 round later at the same DC. You get only this one extra chance to succeed on your saving throw. This granted power is considered a supernatural ability.
Passion(Su): For a total time per day of 1 round per cleric level, as a free action you can act as if under the effect of the rage spell. This granted power is a supernatural ability.
Telepathy 100ft + Mindsight feat
Lore (Ex): Thanks to long hours of study, a cloistered cleric has a wide range of stray knowledge. This ability is identical to the bard's bardic knowledge class feature, using the cloistered cleric's class level in place of the bard level.
Spell-Like Abilities (CL 9th)
3/day—charm person (DC 14), detect thoughts (DC 15), disguise self, suggestion (DC 16);
1/day—dimension door
Prepared (Caster Level 1): - can spontaneously convert spells to inflict spells.
Level 0 (3/day): Detect Magic *3,
Level 1 (1+1+D/day): Recharge Innate Magic, Blood Wind, Omen of Peril (D)
Contingency Spells: Renewal Pact; Stalwart Pact
Healing Belt (3 charges/day):
1 charge: Heals 2d8 points of damage
2 charges: Heals 3d8 points of damage
3 charges: Heals 4d8 points of damage
Anklets of Translocation (2/day):
Ability: Instantly teleport as per a short dimensional hop (with no chance of error) up to 10 feet. The new space must be within line of sight and line of effect. One cannot use the anklet to move into a space occupied by another creature, nor can one teleport into a solid object; if such an attempt is made, the anklet's activation is wasted. The Wearer can bring along objects weighing up to your maximum load, but you can't bring another creature with you.
Earring of Arcane Acuity (3 charges/day):
Alias: N/A
Age: Over four thousand years
Alignment: Chaotic Neutral
Race: Outsider (chaotic, demon, evil, native) - grants Darkvision 60ft
Speed 30 ft., fly 50 ft. (average)
Total Level: 7 Class: Alu Demon 6/Cloistered Cleric 1
Feats: Mindsight, Travel Devotion, Divine Might, Flaw (Free-Spirited), Flaw (Hedonistic), Knowledge Devotion (from Cloistered Cleric), Power Attack, Master Manipulator,
Class Features: Rebuke Undead
Domains: Liberation Domain, Passion Domain
HP: 6d8+1d6+21 (55 hp)
AC: 23/25, touch 13/15, flat-footed 20/22 (+3 Dex, +6 natural, +4 armor, +2 deflection vs Good)
Initiative: +3 (DEX)
Attack: +6 +4 (STR) + 1 (Necklace) = 2 claws +10/+10 (for 1d6+4, Vampiric Touch, Knowledge Devotion may apply), or +10/+5 Masterwork Razor-Sharp Adamantine Dagger (1d4+5)
Spell Save: 10 +3 (Wis) + spell level
Weapon Proficiency: Longsword, Simple Weapons, Light Armor
DR: 5/Cold Iron or Good
Immunities: Electricity, Poison, Possession/Mental Control
Resistances: Acid 10, Cold 10, Fire 10
SR: 17
STATS:
17 +1 = 18 (+4) Strength
15 +1 = 16 (+3) Dexterity
15 +1 = 16 (+3) Constitution
15 +1 = 16 (+3) Intelligence
15 +1 = 16 (+3) Wisdom
16 +2 = 18 (+4) Charisma
SAVES: (fractional saves used. Outsiders have all good saves.)
FORTITUDE: 5 + 3 +3 = 11
REFLEX: 5 + 3 +3 = 11
WILL: 5 + 3 +3 = 11
SKILLS:
Bluff: 10 +4 (CHA) = 14
Concentration: 10 +3 (CON) = 13
Diplomacy: 10 + 4 (CHA) +4 (SYN) = 18
Disguise: 10 +4 (CHA) +2 (SYN) = 16
Gather Information: 10 + 4 (CHA) =14
Intimidate: 5 +4 (CHA) +2 (SYN) = 11
Knowledge (Arcana): 3 +3 (INT) = 6
Knowledge (Religion): 5 +3 (INT) = 8
Knowledge (The Planes): 10 +3 (INT) = 13
Knowledge (Dungeoneering): 1 +3 (INT) = 4
Sense Motive: 10 +3 (WIS) = 13
Spellcraft: 10 +3 (INT) = 13
Spot: 0 + 3 (WIS) +4 (racial) = 7
Listen: 0 +3 (WIS) +4 (racial) = 7
SKILL TRICKS:
Collector of Stories: When you attempt a trained Knowledge check to identify a creature or to learn its special powers or vulnerabilities, you gain a +5 competence bonus on the check.
Second Impression: Once per day, if an observer sees through your disguise with a successful Spot check, you can (as an immediate action) attempt a Bluff check to convince all within 30ft that they're mistaken. Use the observer's Spot check result as the DC for your Bluff check; if you succeed, the observer ignores the evidence of his own senses in favor of what your disguise attempts to show. You must be aware of the observer's discovery in order to use this trick.
Vampiric Touch (Su): An Alu-Demon gains temporary hit points equal to the damage dealt each time she successfully hits with a claw attack. She cannot gain more than her target's current hit points + the target's Con score (which is enough to kill the target). The temporary hit points disappear in one hour.
Rebuke Undead (+2 Skill bonus to check) (6/day)
Liberation(Su): If you are affected by a charm, compulsion or fear effect and fail your saving throw, you can attempt it again 1 round later at the same DC. You get only this one extra chance to succeed on your saving throw. This granted power is considered a supernatural ability.
Passion(Su): For a total time per day of 1 round per cleric level, as a free action you can act as if under the effect of the rage spell. This granted power is a supernatural ability.
Telepathy 100ft + Mindsight feat
Lore (Ex): Thanks to long hours of study, a cloistered cleric has a wide range of stray knowledge. This ability is identical to the bard's bardic knowledge class feature, using the cloistered cleric's class level in place of the bard level.
Spell-Like Abilities (CL 9th)
3/day—charm person (DC 14), detect thoughts (DC 15), disguise self, suggestion (DC 16);
1/day—dimension door
Prepared (Caster Level 1): - can spontaneously convert spells to inflict spells.
Level 0 (3/day): Detect Magic *3,
Level 1 (1+1+D/day): Recharge Innate Magic, Blood Wind, Omen of Peril (D)
Contingency Spells: Renewal Pact; Stalwart Pact
Healing Belt (3 charges/day):
1 charge: Heals 2d8 points of damage
2 charges: Heals 3d8 points of damage
3 charges: Heals 4d8 points of damage
Anklets of Translocation (2/day):
Ability: Instantly teleport as per a short dimensional hop (with no chance of error) up to 10 feet. The new space must be within line of sight and line of effect. One cannot use the anklet to move into a space occupied by another creature, nor can one teleport into a solid object; if such an attempt is made, the anklet's activation is wasted. The Wearer can bring along objects weighing up to your maximum load, but you can't bring another creature with you.
Earring of Arcane Acuity (3 charges/day):
- 1 charge: Darkvision 60 ft. for 1 hour
- 2 charges: See Invisibility for 10 minutes
- 3 charges: True Seeing for 1 minute
- Location
- United States
We need to give her some kind of enchanted Valyrian Steel weapon afterwards. Hopefully she survives this, I'd hate to see her lose a level.
Goldfish
Friendly Spider-Fish Abomination
- Location
- Formerly of the Far Realm
No, we need to do a full gear upgrade on her. We'll kit her out properly next month. She's been overlooked for a while now due to lack of screen time.
Out of sight, out of mind.
They do have something of a different perspective, particularly on dying, they would avoid the pain of it but they do not fear it as most mortals do.
Crake
I AM THE STORM THAT IS APPROACHING
- Location
- USA
They just do not have the benefit of a mortal perspective, which is valuable and necessary for leading mortals. Viserys understands it which is what gives him advantage against Fey bullshit trying to trick people into thinking he doesn't care or "get" mortals, but he understands them vastly better than they do.
Some Outsiders can be leaders, but not all spirits are made equally, and I simply don't think it's fair if we can just mass produce Archons or Devils analogues without being an actual factual God first.
- Location
- United States
What do you have in mind for her?
Also @DragonParadox, regarding the Fungus Forge, given that we happen to have the Gestalt Flesh Forgers of Gogossos as part of the Greendream now, would it be possible to feed the Old Gods a powerful sacrifice so that they can be the ones to upgrade the Fungus Forge?
Goldfish
Friendly Spider-Fish Abomination
- Location
- Formerly of the Far Realm
I was only using Verdant Wolves and Warden Seekers are examples, like I said earlier.
If we're talking about enhancing Humans, rather than Praetorians, I would much prefer to use our researchers and Flesh Forge to work out how to apply the Dragon Vassal template TNE found from the Bestiary of Krynn. We've discussed it before.
It's simple, clean, and really quite nice. It includes:
That's a solid +2 CR template that would fit our theme extremely well.
They could yes, but it would still take 1-2 months because they would have to adapt and refine the systems to see what works and what does not.
- Location
- United States
That's fine, it still saves us a lot of effort. How powerful would the sacrifice need to be to fully upgrade it so the cap is CR 15?
Goldfish
Friendly Spider-Fish Abomination
- Location
- Formerly of the Far Realm
The standard package; better stat boosters, combat gear, weapons, armor, etc.
300 HD I'd say, abut 1/3 of the Drawn Age Tree.