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A Sword Without a Hilt: A Song of Ice and Fire/D&D 3.5 Crossover

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Interregnum said:
... what? Westeros's climate is modeled off of Europe and the natural ecosystem of literally all of western Europe is temperate deciduous forest. Westeros is absolutely temperate.
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I think he was referring mostly to the North, which is something like 3/8ths of the entire continent. Even in Summer that place is cold and prone to wintry weather, including snow and ice. A body buried south of the Neck might be nothing but a skeleton after a decade or two, and that skeleton might remain relatively intact for a few centuries or a bit longer, but north of the Neck they might still be fleshy for decades or centuries depending on just how far north they are.
 
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Interregnum said:
Yea, but we're talking about decomposition. It is 'erratic' in precisely the way that would result in rapid decomposition of human remains during "summer" years pretty much everywhere except maybe Dorne.
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Those decomposition rates are modeled off of IRL climates with regular seasons, so they aren't exactly the greatest fit here. With years-long winters I wouldn't be surprised if there were constant fluctuations of the biome with blooming and retreating permafrost, which would heavily preserve any corpses put down there. Also with the North this is even more true, barring Winterfell which happens to be built on hotsprings.
 
Goldfish said:
I think he was referring mostly to the North, which is something like 3/8ths of the entire continent. Even in Summer that place is cold prone to wintry weather, including snow and ice. A body buried south of the Neck might be nothing but a skeleton after a decade or two, and that skeleton might remain relatively intact for a few centuries or a bit longer, but north of the Neck they might still be fleshy for decades or centuries depending on just how far north they are.
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That explicitly isn't the case. IIRC, we've had conversations with wildlings where they laugh at the erroneous belief of "ignorant southerners" that everything is constantly icy and snow covered beyond the Wall.

Duesal said:
Those decomposition rates are modeled off of IRL climates with regular seasons, so they aren't exactly the greatest fit here. With years-long winters I wouldn't be surprised if there were constant fluctuations of the biome with blooming and retreating permafrost, which would heavily preserve any corpses put down there. Also with the North this is even more true, barring Winterfell which happens to be built on hotsprings.
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The decay rates are modeled off IRL climates with regular season where decomposition slows or effectively stops for a quarter or more of the year. In a world where there is no cold season for years on end, the reasonable conclusion is that real-world decomposition models are slow compared to what happens in Westeros. And we know for a fact, from the books, show, and this story, that farming occurs in the Northern kingdom of Westeros. It isn't cold year round.
 
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Interregnum said:
That explicitly isn't the case. IIRC, we've had conversations with wildlings where they laugh at the erroneous belief of "ignorant southerners" that everything is constantly icy and snow covered beyond the Wall.
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You'll have to bring up those conversations, because IIRC Beyond the Wall is cold enough that in our first visit in the height of summer the Night's Watch had to sell us heavy winter gear.
Interregnum said:
The decay rates are modeled off IRL climates with regular season where decomposition slows or effectively stops for a quarter or more of the year. In a world where there is no cold season for years on end the reasonable conclusion is that real-world decomposition models are slow compared to what happens in Westeros. And we know for a fact, from the books, show, and this story, that farming occurs in the Northern kingdom of Westeros. It isn't cold year round.
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It's a lot colder than assuming the entirety of the North is temperate. Yes, farming happens in the North, but it's hardly the most successful venture. They're still reliant on other kingdoms for importing food, and on fishing for it. There's a good reason the rumors of cannibalism during winter are generally centered in the North.
 
Interregnum said:
That explicitly isn't the case. IIRC, we've had conversations with wildlings where they laugh at the erroneous belief of "ignorant southerners" that everything is constantly icy and snow covered beyond the Wall.
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It's not constantly snowy or icy in Alaska, Northern Canada, or Siberia, but they all have permafrost, much cooler ground temperature in general, and the "warm" season is still much less pronounced than most temperate climates. Those conditions are much more likely to slow decomposition dramatically.
 
Duesal said:
You'll have to bring up those conversations, because IIRC Beyond the Wall is cold enough that in our first visit in the height of summer the Night's Watch had to sell us heavy winter gear.
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I'll search through it, but honestly its erroneous. The North straight up isn't tundra conditions, even if you want to argue that the regions beyond the Wall are.

It's a lot colder than assuming the entirety of the North is temperate. Yes, farming happens in the North, but it's hardly the most successful venture. They're still reliant on other kingdoms for importing food, and on fishing for it. There's a good reason the rumors of cannibalism during winter are generally centered in the North.
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I'm not talking about Winter, I'm talking about Summer. The Long Summer, specifically. The fact that it gets cold for years on end doesn't negate the fact that decomposition would be on overdrive during the summer.

Goldfish said:
It's not constantly snowy or icy in Alaska, Northern Canada, or Siberia, but they all have permafrost, much cooler ground temperature in general, and the "warm" season is still much less pronounced than most temperate climates. Those conditions are much more likely to slow decomposition dramatically.
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The Northern kingdom of the Seven Kingdoms could not exist as it is shown in any GoT material in year-round boreal conditions, let alone the tundra. What you're arguing is that Westeros has the same climate distribution as freaking Siberia. Even then it wouldn't matter. You know what most of Siberia looks like during the summer?
The dark green in boreal conditions, light blue is tundra, and light green is temperate

Consecutive years of boreal summer conditions would still result in bodies decomposing more rapidly in Westeros than they would IRL.
 
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Duesal said:
Holy crap, Green Warden only raises the CR by 1? XD

@Goldfish, what's the most beefed out Treant we could make assuming we eventually unlock the Fungus Forge to CR 15?
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I've seen that one before, but the fluff never felt right for our purposes. Also, that template is at the very least a +3 CR upgrade. +1 CR is ridiculous with all of the bonuses and abilities it grants.
One Autumn Leaf said:
I found this thing that might help.

Find Corpse

Valid?
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Could be useful if the targeting conditions weren't so limited.
 
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Interregnum said:
I'll search through it, but honestly its erroneous. The North straight up isn't tundra conditions, even if you want to argue that the regions beyond the Wall are.


I'm not talking about Winter, I'm talking about Summer. The Long Summer, specifically. The fact that it gets cold for years on end doesn't negate the fact that decomposition would be on overdrive during the summer.


The North could not exist as it is shown in any GoT material in year-round boreal conditions, let alone the tundra. What you're arguing is that Westeros has the same climate distribution as freaking Siberia. Even then it wouldn't matter. You know what most of Siberia looks like during the summer?
The dark green in boreal conditions, light blue is tundra, and light green is temperate

Consecutive years of boreal summer conditions would still result in bodies decomposing more rapidly in Westeros than they would IRL.
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I think the biggest problem is that we're all trying to make sense of Planetos' fucked up, magically augmented climate, along with information presented in the lore which just doesn't jive with reality. I think we should just stop, before headaches set in.
 
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Duesal said:
If we're making creatures for corpse hunting we could probably just have a massive influx of Mushroom Leshys. Though preferably ones that look like they come from Mario Bros instead of that horror show we first saw.
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It is probably a better idea...considering that research for spell development never happens. Too many research projects, too little time.
 
Goldfish said:
I think the biggest problem is that we're all trying to make sense of Planetos' ducked up, magically augmented climate, along with information presented in the lore which just jive with reality. I think we should just stop, before headaches set in.
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I'm not sure what the "headache" is. The climate is fucked up, but it is fucked up in a consistent way. Years of consecutive warm seasons and years of consecutive cold seasons. IRL decomposition happens rapidly during the summer everywhere on the planet except the northern most latitudes. Those sorts of conditions don't exist anywhere south of the Wall. This benefits us because it means that the only corpses in Westeros available to the Others will be those buried within the last five or so years.
 
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Interregnum said:
I'm not sure what the "headache" is. The climate is fucked up, but it is fucked up in a consistent way. Years of consecutive warm seasons and years of consecutive cold seasons. IRL decomposition happens rapidly during the summer everywhere on the planet except the northern most latitudes. Those sorts of conditions don't exist anywhere south of the Wall. This benefits us because it means that the only corpses in Westeros available to the Others will be those buried within the last five or so years.
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The headache, at least for me, comes from trying to reconcile what the Others are supposed to be able to do with the lack of potential resources to accomplish that. We're shown that they have a seemingly endless army of Undead Wights, and those have to come from somewhere. The Wildling population North of the Wall doesn't seem like it could have been the sole contributor to that, even if the Others had thousands of years to gather them in secret.
 
Goldfish said:
The headache, at least for me, comes from trying to reconcile what the Others are supposed to be able to do with the lack of potential resources to accomplish that. We're shown that they have a seemingly endless army of Undead Wights, and those have to come from somewhere. The Wildling population North of the Wall doesn't seem like it could have been the sole contributor to that, even if the Others had thousands of years to gather them in secret.
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Its really not all that surprising. Think about it this way: IRL human society was historically limited by food availability. We only had a few months out of every year to make the food we'd have to use to survive until the next growing season. The rapid transition from spring and summer to fall and winter ensured that food was always a limiting resource and disease a threat to young children. But on Westeros, at least during the summer, food is plentiful. Disease, though a threat, isn't compounded by a lack of food or warmth. Trade can flourish unimpeded by the logistics of seasonality. You'd see huge population booms during the Summer, even among Wildlings. The "carrying capacity" of Westeros during the Summer is relatively high.

Then Winter comes, bringing death on a staggering scale. There is no shortage of corpses for the Others to claim in the depths of Winter.

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Now that I think about it, it makes sense why the Seven Kingdoms can afford to go to war with itself so frequently. It doesn't matter if people are constantly slaughtered in war because the population is culled so harshly during Winter. Not having to feed as many young men during Winter means the peasants can actually afford to feed the children who will grow to adulthood in time for the next Summer.
 
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