A Sword Without a Hilt: A Song of Ice and Fire/D&D 3.5 Crossover
- Thread starter DragonParadox
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I don't think that's how this works. It's been pretty explicitly stated that this only works on Mammon's devils, which is likely a result of the structure embedded in the pact; hell's organizational chart is probably a tree, not a connected graph.
I don't think devils will be able to break the pact without direct metaphysical consequences for everyone involved without explicit permission to leave their "franchise owner's" service.
My memory is a little fuzzy, but isn't that essentially what led up the our fight with noodle? He decided to gamble with us instead of using the pact to curse us into oblivion or something when we tried to recruit a devil of his.
egoo
Totally Not Creating Problems Where None Existed
- Location
- Russia
You are right:
DP stated multiple times that the given Research Action is strictly about freeing us to grab any kind of Devil in Mammon's and Mammon's employ only.
Every other Archfiend's Devil, no matter how willing, will still need to somehow move in Mammon's posession before we can safely grab them.
- Location
- Germany
Maybe, but they don't want to use the "all Devils serve"-part and that comes very close to it.
Not all Devils.
See our Legion Devils.
We can use the same type of rituals on Devils not bound to any Archduke. As proven with the slaves from Heaven.
We can't use it for Devils of other Archdukes as of now, because we don't have the right to do so.
The point was just that should we get another chance to gamble as we did with Mammon, or maybe make a deal for the right, then the ritual would work on those Devils we gained a right on too.
Pure theory, as it is unlikely that two in a row will be that stupid.
If we get the rights that'd make sense, but I think that "unbound" devils probably count as some sort of contractor, and either default to upper management or have no one to appeal to.
If that's the case we'd have to get Asmodeus to open a loophole himself. I think we might have to content ourselves with Mammon's devils alone. Reaching for any more might just get us stuck in a trap.
What he gambled is we'd summon him and if we beat him we got our own personal hole in the Pact Primeval, and if he won his avatar got to run around free.
We do get the rights. We've already permanently cut off the Erinyes, they're native outsiders now, can't go back to Hell.
This is why Mammon hasn't been punished by the way: if he had been, people would have noticed what we did and that'd be egg in the face of the whole Nine Hells as well as give everyone ideas of how they could possibly get a pact exemption.
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- Location
- Germany
Well, the enslaved devils were officially not part of Hell's hierarchy anymore, which is why we could free them even though they never served Mammon.
The Legion Devils are clear proof of that.
- Location
- Germany
No, only the first and a few of the later ones.
Some were made as tools and stayed that way so far.
While i was thinking about the many reasons why Asmodeus will keep what we did quiet, I realized something funny: If Mammon got his hurt pride under control and really worked with this new situation, he could make a killing.
Why? Because he now controls a permanent way out of Hell. By promising it's various denizens he'll set things up for them to get to us and be free, he could get so much power I can't even. Of course this would amount to aggressively poaching from all the other Archdukes, but he could do it.
Why? Because he now controls a permanent way out of Hell. By promising it's various denizens he'll set things up for them to get to us and be free, he could get so much power I can't even. Of course this would amount to aggressively poaching from all the other Archdukes, but he could do it.
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- Location
- florida
Eh, to me... Ambition has always been part of what's central to the fiendish identity. To the core of their being.
Always trampling each other and striving for that next promotion.
Which I viewed as an extension of the original rebellion. Idk though.
I was referring to what caught his attention in the first place; we didn't walk into the snare intent on that fight (I think) it came up while we were there trying to recruit furies.
We do have the right for Mammon, I was just pointing out that it only applies to his devils, so even unbound ones are probably outside our reach.
Given how many noodle has, we should probably avoid anything that looks like a way to expand our loophole. By this point the leadership of hell knows, and they'd probably get a kick out of trapping us with the same sort of greed that got Mammon in trouble.
I actually thought those guys were from Mammon somehow. My bad.
We should probably look at what terms devils are generally sold under though. These guys might have been deliberately broken from hell because the brazen throne wouldn't accept dual loyalties.
That status might not universally apply to enslaved devils if there's a mechanism for subcontracting or something in the pact.
Crake
I AM THE STORM THAT IS APPROACHING
- Location
- USA
One is a woeful lack of competence, which can be redeemed.
The other is treason. Asmodeus is creative when it comes to traitors. He turned Mammon himself into a snake.
Mammon doesn't want to know what it's like to be worm, I imagine. One of the Archdukes already got the 'pleasure' of being a slug.
True, but then it's Hell. I suspect Mammon is already a traitor somehow, what really matters is if he can get away with this particular treason.
- Location
- Germany
Though, coming from another angle, Mammon could, on Big Red's orders, take specific devils in his service and then send them against us, with a sleeper-mission in case they get recruited.
Goldfish
Friendly Spider-Fish Abomination
- Location
- Formerly of the Far Realm
Have we ever stopped to consider that Asmodeus might not mind that we are poaching Mammon's Devils? The Devils of Hell are basically an infinitely renewing resource, one which we couldn't hope to begin to deplete if we Summoned a thousand of them a day for 10,000 years.
So what if we poach a few who don't have the wherewithal to remain loyal to Hell when offered a way out? They're still Devils in form, power, and mentality. They are seen as Devils by those who aren't too ignorant to tell the difference between them and other Evil Outsiders. While they exist, they are living embodiments and advertisements for the power of Hell, which ultimately triumphed over the forces of Heaven.
We recruit those Devils willing to join us, allowing Devils to be seen as a not altogether awful sort of being by the citizens of the Imperium. The Imperium is a growing power, one on the cusp of going extraplanar, with a powerful, virtually immortal leader, which could help to insure a long, stable reign lasting for millenia. Imperial citizens will go on to colonize other worlds in the Material Plane and other Planes out in the greater cosmos, spreading their ideals and culture for eons to come.
So while we might have Devil enemies, Mammon for example, we could be seen as furthering the spread of Diabolic power on behalf of Asmodeus by default.
EDIT: This doesn't mean that we should stop using Devils, of course, or that we should not try to foul Asmodeus' plots on Planetos, but that we shouldn't automatically assume we're on Asmodeus' shit list.
So what if we poach a few who don't have the wherewithal to remain loyal to Hell when offered a way out? They're still Devils in form, power, and mentality. They are seen as Devils by those who aren't too ignorant to tell the difference between them and other Evil Outsiders. While they exist, they are living embodiments and advertisements for the power of Hell, which ultimately triumphed over the forces of Heaven.
We recruit those Devils willing to join us, allowing Devils to be seen as a not altogether awful sort of being by the citizens of the Imperium. The Imperium is a growing power, one on the cusp of going extraplanar, with a powerful, virtually immortal leader, which could help to insure a long, stable reign lasting for millenia. Imperial citizens will go on to colonize other worlds in the Material Plane and other Planes out in the greater cosmos, spreading their ideals and culture for eons to come.
So while we might have Devil enemies, Mammon for example, we could be seen as furthering the spread of Diabolic power on behalf of Asmodeus by default.
EDIT: This doesn't mean that we should stop using Devils, of course, or that we should not try to foul Asmodeus' plots on Planetos, but that we shouldn't automatically assume we're on Asmodeus' shit list.
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egoo
Totally Not Creating Problems Where None Existed
- Location
- Russia
It makes sense on some level.
But we are also, undoubtedly, an enemy to Asmodeus over our ambitions and goals.
So not only will he send infiltrators in numbers we poach from Mammon, he probably already sent some and we are it up.
It is really fucking weird to interact with semi-conceptual, semi-infinite force as Devile, and weirder yet, with the assholiest of them all - Asmy.
- Location
- Germany
Not for what we did to Mammon and his crew, but I think foiling his plans in Sothyros and maybe now Slaver's Bay did/will put us on the list.
- Location
- Castle
I'm sure stopping the sacrifice of Jazirian and now helping him be reborn as Zathir will surely edge us into the shit list of the Archduke 
Crake
I AM THE STORM THAT IS APPROACHING
- Location
- USA
Asmodeus has some kind of plan which, I guess, necessitates dominance on the Prime Material, or he no doubt would have started reaching his feelers out when Mammon made his big fuck-up. I long suspected we were going to receive a house call from a Cleric of his at the very least some time afterwards, but nothing.
For one reason or another, I believe this has to do with a perception of our association as Syrax's tool or at least pawn, and probable paranoia that anything that has ANYTHING to do with her or her little shadow cable of godlings is to be exterminated with extreme prejudice, since those guys pulled off the biggest con game since the Pact Primeval was first signed.
I don't even need to tag @DragonParadox to get him to confirm this is likely, all the anecdotal evidence is there.
The problem is when we steal a Devil and disconnect them from Hell, they stop being a Devil. We don't actually have a name for our former Devils who're now Native Outsiders, mostly because we only a have a few and they're all Erinyes, but they're not Devils anymore, not anymore than they're Angels.
When we go public with them, we'll certainly make the fact that we got them by screwing over Hell clear if only to reassure most of our citizens, whose standard education will be very clear that Hell is bad. So they'll be a spit in Hell's eye and symbol that we can and do poach from them at our discretion.
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On some level I don't think the list really matters that much. Big red is the kind of guy who takes care of business before pleasure, and we're definitely a business item for him.
Step two of the plan we foiled was "send the army of monsters to kill Viserys". Sure, being on The List makes your ultimate fate worse,
but being a bit of business he needs dealt still involves losing everything.
- Location
- Germany
- Pronouns
- He/Him
I think I remember DP calling the PoB a fulcrum. Which explains the Other's, or better, the interest the Void has had in the Winter fey.
We are still of Valyiran descent, and the 14th is still A.'s pawn. That might be a potential leash we see ...
- Location
- Germany
That would explain his reaction.
A Pathfinder-style Church of Asmodeus would have been the better move in the long term, even if not as profitable as a total victory over the Material might be.
But then he'd never get that latter, even if we failed there are too many forces in the multiverse interested in making sure that Asmodeus does not hold the keystone of all in his hands.