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A Sword Without a Hilt: A Song of Ice and Fire/D&D 3.5 Crossover

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Goldfish said:
Not really, since it would only protect a single attribute per casting. And it would be perfectly reasonable to make it so that only one instance of the spell can affect an individual at any given time.
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Multiple kinds of attribute drains are exceedingly rare unless the encounter is specifically designed that way, so it boils down to the same.

Also, I'm really leery of letting you guys begin to design entirely new spells to plug the last few holes in your defense.

Again, encounter design is hard enough as it is.
 
Azel said:
Multiple kinds of attribute drains are exceedingly rare unless the encounter is specifically designed that way, so it boils down to the same.

Also, I'm really leery of letting you guys begin to design entirely new spells to plug the last few holes in your defense.

Again, encounter design is hard enough as it is.
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Yes, but everyone is vulnerable to all types of attribute penalties.

Any single kind of drain or damage can be crippling or fatal. A Feeblemind spell targets Intelligence and Charisma, while penalizing Arcane casters, making it impossible to adequately protect against it in the manner I suggest. Moon Bolt targets Strength, Shivering Touch targets Dexterity, Poison targets Constitution, etc.

Which would Lya prioritize? Protecting Strength or Dexterity? Reducing either could paralyze her. But reducing her Constitution could kill her.

As bad as Shivering Touch is, I worry more about Moon Bolt for some of our people. It's only one level higher than Shivering Touch, but has a good range and can target multiple people. Vee's Strength score is abysmal, and she's not the only one.

For Viserys, I would want to protect Charisma, but keeping him from suffering Charisma damage would also keep him from using Blood Wish.

I think only being able to protect a single attribute is kind of neat, from a strategy POV.
 
TotallyNotEvil said:
No, I'm looking for a counter to a single, specific third level spell.

A spell that has to be, IC, balancing on a razor's edge of some sort. Because it blows spells half a dozen level higher out of the water.

I don't think that's remotely unreasonable.
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And I would rather not suddenly make a huge IC deal out of a spell that was used twice in the quest, both times by an underdog going against a ludicrously overpowered enemy.

Also, you seem set on crafting items against this spell. This sets a precedent that I definitively do not want to have set in any shape or form.
Goldfish said:
Yes, but everyone is vulnerable to all types of attribute penalties.

Any single kind of drain or damage can be crippling or fatal. A Feeblemind spell targets Intelligence and Charisma, while penalizing Arcane casters, making it impossible to adequately protect against it in the manner I suggest. Moon Bolt targets Strength, Shivering Touch targets Dexterity, Poison targets Constitution, etc.

Which would Lya prioritize? Protecting Strength or Dexterity? Reducing either could paralyze her. But reducing her Constitution could kill her.

As bad as Shivering Touch is, I worry more about Moon Bolt for some of our people. It's only one level higher than Shivering Touch, but has a good range and can target multiple people. Vee's Strength score is abysmal, and she's not the only one.

For Viserys, I would want to protect Charisma, but keeping him from suffering Charisma damage would also keep him from using Blood Wish.

I think only being able to protect a single attribute is kind of neat, from a strategy POV.
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Feeblemind is Mind-Affecting, so you are already immune by virtue of Mindblank. I can't think of any other drain / damage spells that target mental attributes at the drop of my hat, but I would wager they all are Mind-Affecting.

So that likely already covers half your attributes. I will give you Moonbolt, but Poison is Fort Negates, so not that hard to defend against in other ways.

On top of that, you got spell-battle rings on everyone, SR, counterspelling, sky-high saves, Alter Fortune...

I'm really not seeing this.
 
Azel said:
And I would rather not suddenly make a huge IC deal out of a spell that was used twice in the quest, both times by an underdog going against a ludicrously overpowered enemy.

Also, you seem set on crafting items against this spell. This sets a precedent that I definitively do not want to have set in any shape or form.

Feeblemind is Mind-Affecting, so you are already immune by virtue of Mindblank. I can't think of any other drain / damage spells that target mental attributes at the drop of my hat, but I would wager they all are Mind-Affecting.

So that likely already covers half your attributes. I will give you Moonbolt, but Poison is Fort Negates, so not that hard to defend against in other ways.

On top of that, you got spell-battle rings on everyone, SR, counterspelling, sky-high saves, Alter Fortune...

I'm really not seeing this.
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I'm not arguing for the spells for us, though I wouldn't mind them being available, but for them to merely exist, available for anyone. I'm not as hung up on defending against Shivering Touch as @TotallyNotEvil is (I'd rather pump our Dexterity up enough to survive a hit or two), but I do see where he is coming from in that it would make sense for a counter of some sort to have been developed throughout the long eons.
 
Goldfish said:
but I do see where he is coming from in that it would make sense for a counter of some sort to have been developed throughout the long eons.
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Yeah I think sometimes there is too much assumption as to the motive of a poster and "consistent/sensible worldbuilding" particularly seems almost never attributed.

If something just doesn't make sense that drives some people crazy. We make the mistake at times of assuming that when someone is arguing for an outcome all they want is that outcome.

A particular outcome can serve to highlight other fluffier aspects, if outcome X is not possible then that means worldbuilding A, B and C makes no sense. I wouldn't go so far as to call these things plotholes but they are similar.
 
I think spell immunity/spellbane is what were looking for here.

Also undead that feed on ability scores!

Though they are rather slow most of the time.
 
zxzx24 said:
I think spell immunity/spellbane is what were looking for here.

Also undead that feed on ability scores!

Though they are rather slow most of the time.
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Those points have been addressed and Undead are not the issue
Think of it like ballistics and armor, a development in one drives development in the other.

The view of some is that Shivering Touch is a Kevlar piercing bullet so the obvious question is where are the ceramic armor plates.

Sure you can get in a tank but that's not quite the same in that a tank just protects you from basically everything whether that's a rifled round or a trained Tiger, the equivalent of Spell Immunity.

Ceramic armor plates do well against rounds but fuck all against tigers.

Disclaimer: I have nfi what I'm talking about when it actually comes to ballistics and armor. Seems a serviceable enough comparison though.
 
Duesal said:
Have we consulted Yrael and his archons on this yet? If not, poking at our Deva contact when we summon him might do some good.
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We asked OGs, and they recommended asking someone who knows about stars.

We have a whole Minor Action dedicated to asking... about everyone we know of this thing this month.
I assume QMs haven't rolled for it yet.
[X] The strange artifact you have oblidged to solve the mystery of for Faceless men is much of a mystery. But perhaps, the powerful mages and entities you are in contact with could provide some clues?
-[X] Ask the Blink Dogs in your employ. If anyone can tell you anything related to stars and their movements, that'd be them.
-[X] Ask Zherys, his mystical knowledge, experience, and access to Volantine archives might hold an answer.
-[X] Ask Melisande, her experience and knowledge of shadow-magic could hold a clue.
-[X] Ask Xor and Jeyne if they feel anything Psionic/aberration-related about the thing.
-[X] Ask Yrael and other Archons, sepcifically the knowledge archons.
-[X] Ask Erynies, in case the thing is connected to diabolical or celestial sources.
-[X] Ask Shadow!Tor, if anything about it bears resemblance to things of Asshai-within-shadow.
-[X] Quickly shuffle through Codex-Uniila with appropriate spells, seeking patterns like those on the artifact, or things of similar nature within her memory, to, hopefully, understand its nature better.
-[X] Ask the ghosts of Essarian scholars if they know anything about this.
-[X] Ask Rizz'Neth if anything about the enchantment seems familiar to him.
-[X] If nothing else works, ask the most experienced of Bulabar in your employ take a non-invasive look at it and it's mechanism, helped by (and, if needed, held at bay by) magic of a suitable Companion.
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@DragonParadox @Azel so for this:
egoo said:
[] Ancestor's Return: Develop a ritual to return Laenor Targaryen back to life, using rituals used for Amrelath, Wyla and leftover lore from Garin/Selyse's ritual (Progress: 8 Cost: 9,500)
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Are we allowed to delegate? Could we ask Saenena or Wyla to handle this for us? I doubt we'll be able to dedicate Companion time, but both of the above women are rather experienced in this field.
 
DragonParadox said:
Wyla could do it, though Lady Saenenais busy making sure your dragons do not eat anyone for right now.
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Azel said:
You can certainly assign other people then Companions to that action next turn.
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Excellent. Hopefully Wyla can manage. I'm hoping to use distant uncle Laenor as a researcher if he's up for it.

Also:
egoo said:
[] Blood Maiden Plaques: Much as they were creatures undeserving of existence, they weren't always like that… or at least their ancestors weren't. It would do you good to understand where they came from to those shores. (Likely information on Drow history and society) (Progress: 6)
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Are our Drow assassins good to translate this? Do they get a bonus for progress due to being Drow?
 
Well, Cloak of Khyber exists, as a foil for True Seeing. From that point of view a draconic 'fuck Shivering Touch' - if they were able to still invent it after the rebellion - would make sense.
 
[X] TotallyNotEvil

Hopefully I'll get a chance to review final plans before vote close but I've been in agreement with your arguments so far.
 
Deliste said:
Yeah I think sometimes there is too much assumption as to the motive of a poster and "consistent/sensible worldbuilding" particularly seems almost never attributed.

If something just doesn't make sense that drives some people crazy. We make the mistake at times of assuming that when someone is arguing for an outcome all they want is that outcome.

A particular outcome can serve to highlight other fluffier aspects, if outcome X is not possible then that means worldbuilding A, B and C makes no sense. I wouldn't go so far as to call these things plotholes but they are similar.
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This has nothing to do with assuming any motives on TNE's side.

If this was greenlit, letting you research a lvl 1 hard counter against a lvl 3 spell, then the next person could come and argue: "But we were allowed to do it for Shivering Touch and it was very cheap, so why can't we research a counter for Spell X?"

And this would be a reasonable argument to make, given the precedent set IC and OOC that this can be done. While we can just not abuse Shivering Touch all the time, that genie can't be properly put back into the bottle.

So I would rather not let it out in the first place before we reasonably compromise us to the point were every Companion runs around with what amounts to permanent Spell Immunity to a dozen spells somebody at some point wanted to have neutered. It's good intentions that pave the way to hell.
 
MTB said:
Well, Cloak of Khyber exists, as a foil for True Seeing. From that point of view a draconic 'fuck Shivering Touch' - if they were able to still invent it after the rebellion - would make sense.
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And True Seeing used to be the hard counter against Polymorph and Illusions used for infiltration purposes. That it has been neutered means that undetectable impostors are now a thing.

As it is, I could say the following:
"Malarys has been killed and replaced by a high-ranking servant of Asmodeus three months ago and now your law-enforcement is infested with an Asmodeus cult."

There is in fact nothing you could do to stop that from happening. Malarys is Mindblanked and when two Mindblanked persons walk into a room and only one comes back out, it's impossible to tell which one is which except by using True Seeing to rule out glamours or polymorphs. Social buffs can be applied to foil Sense Motive attempts and hidden by Magic Aura that is also hidden from detection by Cloak of Khyber.

So, does that mean we now need an Extra-True Seeing?

I'm personally seeing no great value in having such an arms-race.
 
Azel said:
And True Seeing used to be the hard counter against Polymorph and Illusions used for infiltration purposes. That it has been neutered means that undetectable impostors are now a thing.

As it is, I could say the following:
"Malarys has been killed and replaced by a high-ranking servant of Asmodeus three months ago and now your law-enforcement is infested with an Asmodeus cult."

There is in fact nothing you could do to stop that from happening. Malarys is Mindblanked and when two Mindblanked persons walk into a room and only one comes back out, it's impossible to tell which one is which except by using True Seeing to rule out glamours or polymorphs. Social buffs can be applied to foil Sense Motive attempts and hidden by Magic Aura that is also hidden from detection by Cloak of Khyber.

So, does that mean we now need an Extra-True Seeing?

I'm personally seeing no great value in having such an arms-race.
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Mind there is a counter to the mind blanked imposter I would say, simple sense motive (both IC and OOC). that said I do agree that the spell arms race is a bad idea and we should avoid trying to smooth all the ways in which D&D is unbalanced. If you do that you get the blandness that is 5th edition at best and the pen and paper version of a MMORPG that was 4th edition.
 
I'm getting increasingly agitated by this discussion, having moved from fffucking swords to balance in general.

Can we just drop this?
Pretty please?
I'll throw in a WIP for that :/
 
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