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A Sword Without a Hilt: A Song of Ice and Fire/D&D 3.5 Crossover

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tarrangar said:
Yeah we should encourage responsibility in summoning, but seeing as keeping your summon bound is more or less slavery, our rules should be about not summoning problems, not about making sure not to lose control of your summon.
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Diplomacy classes?

Also just legal contracts would work fine.

tarrangar said:
I would expect him to make an appearance in court too, but I wouldn't expect it to be as one of the people being accused, I would expect it to be as a witness.

Which is a big difference, Yrael would be expected to tell why he summoned the lawbreaker, but he wouldn't be held responsible for the Lawbreakers actions, unless there was proof of Yrael doing something wrong, such as not vetting the summoned properly, so an accidentally summoned fiend, managed to disguise itself as a celestial.
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Yrael would be apalled if he summoned something that committed a crime and bad faith.

He's also the Lord of his own domain. I wouldn't mind him letting handle sentencing and execution.

tarrangar said:
You mean the Pouch of the Weeping Lady? That thing served us well for a long time, and we only choose it over freeing Velen, because Velen is a patient person, and we knew we would be able to free him ourselves soon.
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Yeah that exactly.

I hate it.
 
MTB said:
If you summon a Pit Fiend, and it goes on a rampage, you can't not be responsible. Same goes for any summon.
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I feel like there should be a break-off point.

After showing a Celestial the situation and explaining the rules of our society and giving him a period to get used to it, you can kinda leave him to be a citizen on his own.
Unless the court can prove you were grossly neglegtant on that matter the Celestial is responsible for his own crimes after that.
 
Artemis1992 said:
he still should have gotten a writ of approval signed by Taena or someone official from the Scholarium for legal reasons.
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I'm sure he both knows this and got approval already.

He probably keeps a copy of the legal code at hand when he's working.

Edit: @Artemis1992 I think that would be covered under foreign labor laws?

What are the laws as they pertain to non citizens employed by citizens?
 
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Adhoc vote count started by zxzx24 on May 18, 2019 at 11:52 AM, finished with 167 posts and 12 votes.
  • [X] What is Personal
    -[X] "It was not an experience I would wish to repeat, to be left little choice but to see him simply...stopped. But given the power he had been invested with, I had few options."
    --[X] Explain how you did not seek to rend Baelor's soul, nor damn him to a hell of the Old Gods' making. The blessing, perhaps curse, he had called down upon himself would have continued to return him to life no matter how many times you defeated him. You can at least be thankful that he was given peace in death. "Made my enemy by circumstance of the power he bore Baelor might have been, but he was still my kin, Danelle." Stealth reference to Rina. She's going to be extremely relevant later on.
    --[X] "But this is more a discussion for the summoner, and perhaps the ones whose words set my ancestor so irrevocably against me." If the second half gets a reaction, I'm really not going to be happy, but I'm also not going to be surprised.
    -[X] Express your desire to speak to both her and Lucan, tonight if possible, under oaths of parlay. You have clearly misinterpreted the man in some things, and you would like to rectify that in the hopes of finding some common ground or compromise. Entirely truthful.
    --[X] You will release two of those you took from Lucan as a show of good faith. The two you keep will be treated as guests, with all the respect that implies, until their release upon a peaceful resolution to the parlay.
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Why didn't Baelor come after us? Assuming that he was so horrified by us that he called upon the powers of a god and was given that template why didn't he come after us immediately? Did he not have time? Was he told not to? Did he simply decide to wait till the promised day to fight us?
 
One Autumn Leaf said:
Why didn't Baelor come after us? Assuming that he was so horrified by us that he called upon the powers of a god and was given that template why didn't he come after us immediately? Did he not have time? Was he told not to? Did he simply decide to wait till the promised day to fight us?
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Why on Earth did the stranger all God's see fit to grant his request?

Eh, in reference the part where we bring up damning or saving his soul is actually foolish and leaves us wide open, but nothing we can do about it now I guess.
 
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Baelor wasn't a homicidal madman, just a self-righteous one. Even when he bee-lined it straight towards our baited trap, he did offer potential clemency. Though of the "unilaterally surrender or I will shank you and probably kill some of your friends" variety.
 
MTB said:
If you summon a Pit Fiend, and it goes on a rampage, you can't not be responsible. Same goes for any summon.
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If you summon a Pit Fiend and it go on a rampage you're responsible of course, if you summon something not inherently evil, it becomes a citizen, and commit a crime, then they not you are responsible, permanent summoning is just another form of immigration, and while we expect anyone bringing immigrants, to make sure they aren't disguised enemies of the state, we don't hold them responsible if the immigrant commits a crime, unless there's proof of gross negligence in the immigration vetting process.

Then there's of course the fact that you need a license if you want to summon, but that's not at all relevant here, as Lucan isn't a citizen of ours, and so it's not us he should be expected to get a license from.
Artemis1992 said:
That is not true.
We have a law in our very constitution:

And even if we wanted to give blanket approval to summon Celestials we still shouldn't do it because there is a chance of accidentaly calling fiends of opposed alignment and equal power.

Since Yrael has been training mages and calling allies since before he officially joined our Realm I assume he was allowed to carry on because there was no particular reason to stop him, but he still should have gotten a writ of approval signed by Taena or someone official from the Scholarium for legal reasons.
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Well yes, but Lucan isn't a member of our Empire, so he don't need our permission to summon, and I wasn't talking about what you needed to get that permission, I was talking about, whether you were expected to keep anything you summon bound, and whether you are responsible for any acts your summon does.

And the answer to those questions are no, you are expected to get state approval before you summon something, but unless it's something malevolent, meant to be sacrificed or rendered down to parts, you aren't supposed to bind it if it's sapient, and you aren't more responsible for their acts, than you are for the acts of someone you hired the normal way, and if they decide to leave your service, your responsibility for them is entirely nullified.

If Lucan was a citizen of ours, then he would be guilty of unauthorized summoning, but he wouldn't be guilty of not keeping what he summoned bound, because binding sapient beings is a crime in our Empire.

Summoning is a way to have certain types of Outsiders immigrate, you are no more responsible for the acts of someone you summoned, than a captain is, for the acts of an immigrant they transported to our shores, which mean you do have some responsibilities, but they are all temporary, and are mainly to do with you being obligated, to make sure they are properly registered as a citizen.

Of course most of the time when you summon something it's to work for you, so as long as whatever you summoned haven't quit the job you offered it, you do have the same amount of responsibility for their acts, as an employer has for their employees.
 
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Quick question: which two prisoners do you guys want to free. By the fact that you guys did not specify I assumed you were going to leave it up to them (which would be gracious and further proof you have no particular interest in any of them), but I wanted to make sure.
 
Snowfire said:
Please, do elaborate.
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mmmmmm okay

-[] "It was not an experience I would wish to repeat, to be left little choice but to see him simply...stopped. But given the power he had been invested with, I had few options."
--[] Explain how you did not seek to rend Baelor's soul, nor damn him to a hell of the Old Gods' making. The blessing, perhaps curse, he had called down upon himself would have continued to return him to life no matter how many times you defeated him. You can at least be thankful that he was given peace in death. "Made my enemy by circumstance of the power he bore Baelor might have been, but he was still my kin, Danelle." Stealth reference to Rina. She's going to be extremely relevant later on.

We could have contained him indefinitely. Though it is obvious we have the power to do so that devolves into she said/he said pretty quick. Still I am sure the possibility will cross her mind. (she probably doesn't know we have a shelf for it)

"Explain how you did not seek to rend Baelor's soul, nor damn him to a hell of the Old Gods' making. The blessing, perhaps curse" This feels really weird to me?

Its the nominal benefit of telling her "hey, baelors still around actually if your gods want him back." But you go on to try and paint us sacrificing him as us doing him a favor? Shes already biast against blood sacrifice, and you seemed to have forgotten she got a dream vision of us doing him in. There was 0% mercy or kindness there. Especially with the perspective of "blushing maiden in the splash zone of slaughter dome XXXX".

The "peace in death" thing goes against everything we believe in and several members of our empire. Especially Rina. We could have let her die. We didn't we raised her because she was useful and because she deserved to live. That will kind of be proven false as she learns more about us.

"but he was still my kin, Danelle."

I kind of hope she doesnt believe we hold any familial affection for him? Because if we do, and we killed him anyway, shes basically never going to feel anyone will be safe from it.

I fully expect it to be irrelevant.

edit: Oh, also the implication that the 7 condemned him to eternal damnation which we freed him from by murdering him will probably go poorly.
 
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zxzx24 said:
I have never ever convinced anyone of anything with "moral implications" and gave up on bothering with them years ago.

I left the thread for a few months following us giving up freeing Velen in exchange for a magic item no one remembers or cares about.

edit: I do appreciate the thought though.
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That item was used to free Leilla, and get Waymar and Richard past Damphair's tentacle trap spell, off the top of my head. I think freeing Velen would have been better, but that item was useful.
 
BeepSmile said:
That item was used to free Leilla, and get Waymar and Richard past Damphair's tentacle trap spell, off the top of my head. I think freeing Velen would have been better, but that item was useful.
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shrug*

It may have been the right choice, it definitely was not the moral choice.

Which is something I am rapidly realizing the thread just flat out doesn't understand.
 
Alright caught up again. Glad to see everyone's in higher spirits. And look at that! We have a semi functional diplomatic vote! Still have no idea how to turn it into a peaceful resolution, but it's something.

Also I am fully aware of the issues of mocking and dehumanizing our foes, I've brought them up several times. That said:

Lucan, you idiot. You lost control of your summon? Come man, you should have died because of that. I'm astonished the father still considers you a worthy candidate, that's some awful leadership.
 
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