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A Sword Without a Hilt: A Song of Ice and Fire/D&D 3.5 Crossover

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chryssalideater said:
No but do it without killing all those people tho.
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? What people are you referring to? The peasants of Lannisport? The ones that could've been saved by Tywin if he bothered in investing in the well being of others?

Well, how did you expect us to weaken the West? By killing everyone and eveything? Economic warfare is hardly the most questionable of things, especially when blockades are still done in this day and age.
 
Snowfire said:
The former. Entirely. And yes, because they were useful, but that's actually the point here.



I'll add in a stipulation allowing for MAD. That seem reasonable?



I'm going for what I think I might be able to get. And even then I don't think it's likely.
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I don't suppose I can convince you to add in that stipulation about manipulating our subjects?
 
egoo said:
Why not have that change on the sacrificial/corrective insitutions then? Them being there will need a vote one way or another, and I think you'll be best suited to deciding where to put them anyway.

I'd rather Viserys accept who he is now. Accept, as in all of that and the consequences following it, and move on.
We can instill changes to the way things work later, and gradually, isntead of... this spur-of-te-moment-to-not-feel-bad - decisions :/
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No. This decision feeds into that one. It's an IC reason to summon them. I mean, yes, come that time we'll have to work out how to apply them and I'm happy to help with that, but I feel that this is actually a reasonable point to commit to that decision now.
 
Azel said:
Right here:
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I'm not sure why I'm arguing with you about this, Azel. :confused: In any case, that post wasn't an argument against the update. All it states is that you had no interest in the resulting argument.
chryssalideater said:
To put it bluntly, I'm in agreement with some people that Axel has tried to snowball his views of viserys' character in the past by convincing the thread to commit an evil action, then using that as evidence that we are hypocrites if we don't commit more evil. Which is stupid, there's no rule that says you can't stop being evil. Literally all you have to do is choose to stop.
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That is a view I deeply disagree with.

The hypocrisy you mentioned was precisely what was covered in this update -- evil actions dressed up as good. It wasn't to push us to do more evil, it was to stop deluding ourselves into thinking it was good.

Azel, feel free to correct me at any time.
 
You know it's funny, that these are the worst possible examples she could show us. That a demon cultist, peasants under the rule of Tywin, and a army who has absolute faith in our judgement, is the worst product of our rule? That sounds amazing once you think about it.
 
Azurath said:
? What people are you referring to? The peasants of Lannisport? The ones that could've been saved by Tywin if he bothered in investing in the well being of others?

Well, how did you expect us to weaken the West? By killing everyone and eveything? Economic warfare is hardly the most questionable of things, especially when blockades are still done in this day and age.
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Ideally a decisive surgical strike on lannisport, replacing tywin with an impostor, and then ruling through cersie for a few years until we can use propaganda to arrange for a much smaller "fairytail" revolution where the only people dying are within kings landing an lannisport, as opposed to the wider world of westeros.
 
[X] Accept that which you had become and leave the sighs to others

Azel said:
Mind you, this is literally all I ever wanted. Seeing and acknowledging the consequences and the cost of these actions. I do not want to build a big cauldron in the Fungus Forge to toss living babies in, or start carpet bombing civilians for the funsies, but this here? All of this? This isn't new. That's all cold tea.
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Far as I can tell nothing has changed, all old news.

The consequences of our actions where, for the most part, quite obvious when they were made.
I think I kinda missed how bloody our takeover work in Myr got, but that was cleared pretty soon after the vote, not just now.
 
Snowfire said:
No. This decision feeds into that one. It's an IC reason to summon them. I mean, yes, come that time we'll have to work out how to apply them and I'm happy to help with that, but I feel that this is actually a reasonable point to commit to that decision now.
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:confused:
I'd vote for you on this, really.
I don't mind these two points of yours.

But they take away from the "accept and move on"-point for me, here.
I don't want these things to come as a spur-of-the-moment changes.

I think it'd make more sense for Viserys to stop deluding himself now, in fullest of his capability to do so, and gradually try fixing some (these 2 particular) wrongs later.

chryssalideater said:
Ideally a decisive surgical strike on lannisport, replacing tywin with an impostor, and then ruling through cersie for a few years until we can use propaganda to arrange for a much smaller "fairytail" revolution where the only people dying are within kings landing an lannisport, as opposed to the wider world of westeros.
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Okay, wow.
Where do I even begin with this..?
 
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chryssalideater said:
Ideally a decisive surgical strike on lannisport, replacing tywin with an impostor, and then ruling through cersie for a few years until we can use propaganda to arrange for a much smaller "fairytail" revolution where the only people dying are within kings landing an lannisport, as opposed to the wider world of westeros.
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And Lanna would magically not notice or act on this? This is simplifying a pretty major operation.
Artemis1992 said:
[X] Accept that which you had become and leave the sighs to others


Far as I can tell nothing has changed, all old news.

The consequences of our actions where, for the most part, quite obvious when they were made.
I think I kinda missed how bloody our takeover work in Myr got, but that was cleared pretty soon after the vote, not just now.
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Lys was the bloody one with that lovely violent coup. Myr was more or less cowed into submission and handed off to Lady Phassen.
 
Work is about to get too hectic for me to chime in for a bit. Those of you who want to change the way we do things, you should try to find common ground and agree on a single vote, because seven different plans aren't going to overcome the majority who are just fine with how things have gone so far.
Adhoc vote count started by Duesal on May 2, 2019 at 9:23 AM, finished with 305369 posts and 18 votes.
  • [X] Accept that which you had become and leave the sighs to others
    [X] Change something of what you had seen, the past is dead but the future is yet open?
    -[X] Limit the use of Weapons of Mass Destruction - Weapons such that you deployed against Lannisport require foes against which they are the only option. Limit use of WMDs to use against the White Walkers, other truly existential threats to Planetos itself, and peer powers possessed of similar systems.
    -[X] Write in: Silver of Justice - There is a truth in what you have been shown, but also a message of how you have chosen to make some useful and others food for the engine of Empire. With the summoning of the Preceptor Archons, and the rituals you have created to free Fiends and more from that which binds them inevitably to the planes which supply their power, might it not also be possible to see some who are driven to consort with such powers recovered from their folly instead of simply given unto the snake or tree?
    [X] Change something of what you had seen, the past is dead but the future is yet open?
    -[X] Limit the power of the inquisition to spy on your own citizenry (Write in)
    -[X] Do not Create the Mammon Machine
    -[X] Be more careful in your intrigues about causing avoidable deaths (Write in)
    [X] Change something of what you had seen, the past is dead but the future is yet open?
    -[X] Limit the power of the inquisition to spy on your own citizenry (Write in)
    -[X] Set up indipendant judges and have them ask for warrents to spy on your citizens
    -[X] Further limit what you can use as sacrifice (Write in)
    -[X] No mortal or those whose souls can be saved. Atleast try and rehabilitate them for a few months. Have them swear to one of the gods so thier soul are not damned
    -[X] Limit the use of Weapons of Mass Destruction (Write in)
    -[X] Against no mortals no WMDs
    -[X] Put precautions in place in the case of human experimentation/flesh-forging (Write in)
    -[X] have proper courses and studies done on thier effcts on people. Only use bodies voluntired for that purpose.
    -[X] Do not Create the Mammon Machine
    -[X] Try to limit the grain crises you had set up (Write in)
    -[X] try to find some magical use for large amount of grain. Like good for a potion or something, leak it to westros.
    -[x] Be more careful in your intrigues about causing avoidable deaths
    [X] Change something of what you had seen, the past is dead but the future is yet open?
    -[X] Limit the use of Weapons of Mass Destruction - Weapons such that you deployed against Lannisport require foes against which they are the only option. Limit use of WMDs to use against the White Walkers and other truly existential threats to Planetos itself, not our own personal power.
    -[X] Write in: Silver of Justice - There is a truth in what you have been shown, but also a message of how you have chosen to make some useful and others food for the engine of Empire. With the summoning of the Preceptor Archons, and the rituals you have created to free Fiends and more from that which binds them inevitably to the planes which supply their power, might it not also be possible to see some who are driven to consort with such powers recovered from their folly instead of simply given unto the snake or tree?
    [X] Abstain
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In the end, I think this vote is somewhat...pointless? As long as we still have a line we aren't willing to cross somewhere (the children dying thing) all these additional stipulations don't actually make us better. They make us suck less perhaps but being a good person doesn't just mean sucking less than the other guy. On a related note, we should probably expect the archon's to rebel against us at some point.
 
egoo said:
:confused:
I'd vote for you on this, really.
I don't mind these two points of yours.

But they take away from the "accept and move on"-point for me, here.
I don't want these things to come as a spur-of-the-moment changes.

I think it'd make more sense for Viserys to stop deluding himself now, in fullest of his capabiloity to do so, and gradually try fixing some (these 2 particular) wrongs later.
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The lack of self-deception is implied in either vote, no more illusions about the past.
 
chryssalideater said:
Ideally a decisive surgical strike on lannisport, replacing tywin with an impostor, and then ruling through cersie for a few years until we can use propaganda to arrange for a much smaller "fairytail" revolution where the only people dying are within kings landing an lannisport, as opposed to the wider world of westeros.
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Can you guarantee our odds of success? You would risk the lives of everyone in Lannisport should we fail. The lord's Tywin had geased would quickly submit themselves to his chosen successor and the realm would paint us as murders. There is no easy solution.
 
Azurath said:
Can you guarantee our odds of success? You would risk the lives of everyone in Lannisport should we fail. The lord's Tywin had geased would quickly submit themselves to his chosen successor and the realm would paint us as murders. There is no easy solution.
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Yes obviously there isn't an easy solution.If doing good was easy, people would do it all the time.
 
[X] Abstain

I have serious reservations about this discussion, but only because it should have been addressed long ago instead of shoehorned in by your plot device character.
 
chryssalideater said:
In the end, I think this vote is somewhat...pointless?
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It... really is.

The chapter we just had, wasn't.

Viserys saw the wrongdongs slapping him in the face.
He accepted that he's faulty.

Now he's gong to move on either way, we're just given a choice whether to randomly change something important in our policies as well.

EDIT: DP'd :/
 
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