The devils and demons took some time to show up, outside of places like Mantarys were there was a breach. As for the Deep Ones, they were already here, just sleeping, that gave them a head start.
A Sword Without a Hilt: A Song of Ice and Fire/D&D 3.5 Crossover
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The devils and demons took some time to show up, outside of places like Mantarys were there was a breach. As for the Deep Ones, they were already here, just sleeping, that gave them a head start.
Snowfire
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You're...missing my point. I'm not meaning neutralise Bloodraven by going North and killing him. I'm meaning act against his pawns. Actually flex their divine muscle. Bloodraven and the OG's are good, but unless I'm very much mistaken, they're not a match for the Seven As One even now if it actually came to a conflict in shared metaphysical space. In the end, this is water under the bridge. I can't change it. But the way in which some of these latest developments have occurred are just stirring up my issues with it again.
Might be better I just took a break for a while.
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They could have been, but they were up against Bloodraven from day one, who've we constantly supported and empowered. Not to mention their internal divisions and resistance they face from multiple powerful and entrenched factions completely unrelated to us. I get where you're coming from, Snowfire, but this isn't 'narrative fiat.'
[X] Azel
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In all honesty I think that if the Seven showed more competence early on we would move to eradicate them far more quickly. Like we haven't made moves with the because we have other priorities but it they did show more competence then they would be targeted much quicker. At least that is how I see it.
Look, the thing about Seven versus Old Gods is that while the Seven are a garden variety pantheon, the Old Gods are not. The Old Gods live on the planet rather than their own plane, meaning they always have home field advantage, were able to act even in lowest magic conditions and their high level units and divine avatars are already here.
This is balanced by them being trees, and therefore able to be severely reduced in power by just chopping down a Heart Tree, way more than the Seven can be diminished by burning down a Sept. So it's a very real tradeoff and the Old Gods have suffered a lot for the flipside of having this capabilities.
The Seven also have the worship and interpretation problem. They were never actually One because for all that theology indicates they should be (and we don't know if it was that way from the very beginning or a matter of later reforms), their mostly smallfolk base of worshipers does not understand that at all.
The Old Gods get away from this both by having sacrifice as counter weight and by being plain simple, with no formal theology beyond simple commands. The Old Gods are also shit at theological battles due to having no formal priests, but again, tradeoffs.
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I see, the issue, here is also that the Seven do not have a plotter on the ground to match him, they also do not have a demain that is linked to foresight. The sort of strategy you are promising requires finesse not more than power.
Also just to make it clear I do not mind the critique even if it's 'water under the bridge' it will help me improve in the future
Snowfire
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There were mid-to-high CR Devils running around in Westeros because we ended up going to a place well before anything equivalent to them could have come along. If we hadn't gone to White Harbour, then the devils there wouldn't have existed - that or White Harbour would be a crater right now. Unless the Seven were just waiting in the wings to drop a Planetar or Solar on the plot just before it went off or something? There is massive inconsistency in directed power going on here.
And I'm not saying it's been narrative fiat. At all. I've gone out of my way to say that. I just feel that the Seven's Chosen, and the actual power of the Seven, is either under a huge number of conceptual restraint (that the Old Gods should then at least share on some level) or have been poorly handled in some of the planning stages when set against Viserys. That's not a complain, to be clear; Viserys has a memetic threadmind that is blatantly abusing metaknowledge and system hacks to get what they want. DP is just one person against that.
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I guess Institutional Inertia also screwed them a bit? It has been a long time since they could actually influence their cult and we know Prayer changes gods a bit, add a few centuries of that and the Chruch being corrupted by the common Westerosi Stupid Syndrome.
Meanwhile the Old Gods haven't changed at all given they don't really take prayer and that what actually passes for a Priest of them is locked on a cave
Meanwhile the Old Gods haven't changed at all given they don't really take prayer and that what actually passes for a Priest of them is locked on a cave
It's been a while but from what I remember none of the devils in white harbor were stronger than the harvester and he was CR 9. They did summon a corugon but that was a freak-accident brought about by a rushed ritual. If that thing had beaten you however something like Baelor might have shown up to kill it.
That said I do see your point. I have been a bit rushed with the Seven's background rolls which lead to them being less effective than they aught to be.
Massgamer
Advance toward the Future
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[X] Azel
On the subject @DragonParadox couldn't Chosen of Stranger be a plotter since can hide even from Bloodraven? I can totally see them acting behind scenes with own plans.
On the subject @DragonParadox couldn't Chosen of Stranger be a plotter since can hide even from Bloodraven? I can totally see them acting behind scenes with own plans.
Snowfire
Polyglot of Chimera
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At which point you say fuck subtlety after the first few of your Chosen get offed and use your power to send down divine servants to counter Bloodravens sneakiness so that it might stop happening. Give them Cassians or Iophanites or Chorals to aid in the tasks that you've given them. Give them access to blessed weapons and direction. Actually aid them instead of just shoving power into their souls and leaving it at that.
Like, the entire plot when we met Frenly to ransom his brother could have been seriously damaged if what's-her-name the Warrior's Chosen had a Spirit of the Seven like any of the above to back her words up and/or catch the damn Imps.
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Wouldn't angelic beings surrounding and protecting a chosen call for devils, demons and other aberrations to attack them? It wouldn't be hard for an imp to find out about a chosen and send the message to the higher ups if angels surround one. Plus with the anti-magic bias going on who is to know if it is angels or a devil pretending to be one.
Outsiders have to be called barring very rare conjunctures like the one that let Lileath though to Braavos, it's why day Abraxes hasn't sent an army of snake demons to besiege Sorcerer's Deep.
Looking back however I can see how I could have had them be more proactive in finding and instructing new Chosen. I might quibble over the details but in essence you re right I have been having the Seven be far too reactive.
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Well, that depends if you send a High CR Outsider to protect your Chosen after Bloodraven made them choke on their soup that's giving an excuse for BR to escalate. And if they keep choking in their food that's just silly.
Also, I seem to remember the Frenly meeting was already completed when we met Brienne, and while I don't remember the particular irder of events I think she became a Chosen after she killed an Imp?
Also, I seem to remember the Frenly meeting was already completed when we met Brienne, and while I don't remember the particular irder of events I think she became a Chosen after she killed an Imp?
Snowfire
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Evil and us do not have a monopoly on competence. Cassians could be a small animal via their Alter Form ability that a Chosen takes a shine to and keeps with them. Iophanites can pretend to be a shield until they're needed. Chorals can cast invisbility at will. There's countless ways that they could have applied low CR angels to aiding their Chosen without making said Chosen even larger targets than they already were.
Like, to express this here for a moment. The Fey are doing a better job of protecting people from the supernatural than the Seven right now, as far as we've seen.
The fucking Fey.
tarrangar
Fat arctic chicken
One thing I think we should point out, is that it's the Seven as much as the old gods who are causing this war, sure the old gods demand recompense, but they don't demand that it be in blood, if the Seven would pay the reparations they owe, this could be ended without bloodshed, but of course the Seven will never even consider doing such.
Basically the old gods has a legitimate claim to recompense, they would prefer to take it in blood, but they could be convinced to take it in power instead, but the Seven is never going to admit they did something wrong and pay reparations.
[X] Azel
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Indeed she did. We met with F!Renly, we had the Assassin Devil crash the party and get itself captured, then as we were heading back to the keep on Tarth we found out that Brienne had become the Warrior's Chosen. But by that point the first impressions had already been made, thankfully in our favor.
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You know what they say about magpies
They don't forget the loot and don't forgive the loot that got away
They don't forget the loot and don't forgive the loot that got away
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Yep.You know what they say about magpies
They don't forget the loot and don't forgive the loot that got away
I've basically given up on Brienne, though. If we manage to get her, fantastic. If not, RIP.
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Wow, that's pretty fucking brutal. I know he was wrecking then like a pinata, but damn.
Mmm.
It's harsh yeah.
I would have had an angel escort their champions to the divine realm for training personally.
This ground war is basically toast.
Especially since they aren't working as a cohesive unit. For reasons.
Snowfire
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The Old Gods chessgame only functions vs the Great Other. It is not a move-countermove game with the Seven, mainly because if the Seven actually managed to pin the Old Gods down, especially early in the quest, they'd have torn them to pieces.
They've been nothing but reactive. We've seen no great plans laid out and completed, no real forward movement, and no support from their divine sponsors beyond 'here, power!' that could only grow slowly. Ritual magic dedicated to the Seven could have given them allies that could do far more than another human could. More than that, gods like the Seven have got to have Divine Heralds. I'm honestly just waiting for one of them to show up at the Conclave and spank us in social combat if we try to intervene. At least that would show that the Seven give a damn about their words.
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In the fey defence (I can't believe you are making me do this) they are actually far easier to access than Gods. I mean all you gotta do is stumble upon a grove of fey and make a deal. With gods you have to pray to them and roll a d 100 to see if they show up. Fey are far easier to work with. It's the aftermath with fey deals that is the issue. I don't mind if the Seven are reasonably more competent tbh (ie no mythic and not the same level as us). It just means more sacrifices and loot.