Clearly, things like Danys dream powers or Viserys turning into a Dragon added nothing to the quest.

/sarcasm
More seriously, Viserys and Lya are Sorcerer-Kings who use their magic for the good of all. It's literally the center of their characters, as far as their legend is concerned. Oh, Lya does crafting and Viserys kills things, but there is obviously some generic parts to their fluff. Therefore, more generic abilities like Competent Spellcaster also fit them. Sure, any non-Gish or non-hyperfocused build could take this ability, but that doesn't mean it isn't fluffy. Being mighty spellcasters is a huge part of their fluff, and we should strive to reflect that.
 
I personally consider the concentration checks a wasted tier as it fixes a problem we never had and never will have due to the vast number of fullcasters in our line-up.

As for Elemental Bond, it already scales.
We apply "impossible concentration checks" to enemies all the time!
As we grow in power, more and more things become unable to harm us. Therefore I expect DP to start using that against us more and more often.

It's also a really obvious way to counter wizards. Even that Manderly was planning on using it!
 
More seriously, Viserys and Lya are Sorcerer-Kings who use their magic for the good of all. It's literally the center of their characters, as far as their legend is concerned. Oh, Lya does crafting and Viserys kills things, but there is obviously some generic parts to their fluff. Therefore, more generic abilities like Competent Spellcaster also fit them. Sure, any non-Gish or non-hyperfocused build could take this ability, but that doesn't mean it isn't fluffy. Being mighty spellcasters is a huge part of their fluff, and we should strive to reflect that.
And nobody is trying to refluff them as weak muggels, but when you ask me "Who is best at interrupting spells?" the answer is Dany and Vee with Alter Fortune. They do it all the time. Viserys just tanks stuff and then messes you up far worse in return.
 
I personally consider the concentration checks a wasted tier as it fixes a problem we never had and never will have due to the vast number of fullcasters in our line-up.
I'm sure Goldfish can present re case much better than I, but looking at stats of shit like Elder Brain, and various avatars, I have little doubt that eventually we will have this problem.

After all, dragon or not, the best way to deal with a caster is to not let them cast...

And DP is having problems providing us with challenges already :/

So this seems like a good hole to close in out defenses much much beforehand it ever being necessary...
Because chances are, if it is ever exploited, we are fucked.
 
I personally consider the concentration checks a wasted tier as it fixes a problem we never had and never will have due to the vast number of fullcasters in our line-up.
This particular argument would hold more weight if the thread didn't insist on sending Viserys off on his own so much, or with minimal support. It keeps happening over and over and every freaking time I worry about Viserys being overwhelmed or ganked because of simple things like failing a Concentration check at the wrong time. :(
 
And nobody is trying to refluff them as weak muggels, but when you ask me "Who is best at interrupting spells?" the answer is Dany and Vee with Alter Fortune. They do it all the time. Viserys just tanks stuff and then messes you up far worse in return.
Lya uses Alter Fortune as well, dude. If she didn't, we wouldn't be wasting two of her spell slots right now to keep a pair of them prepared for her.

She's done Counterspelling as well. Everyone capable of it in the quest so far has been put on Counterspelling duty in many of the combat plans I've written.
 
You know, I'm just going to stop trying to explain my point of view on this for the xth time and go work on the Sage path. Seems more productive to me.
 
And to be clear: "Viserys is a Dragon" changes NOTHING about the risks on Concentration checks. Hit dice and bonus skill points in peripheral skills have very little to do with that. People with Mage Slayer or interrupting attacks can hit us and force DC 70+ skill tests very easily at this level. We make Waymar and Richard do it all the time, for example ! And we've done it with Celerity + Orb of Force too !
 
This particular argument would hold more weight if the thread didn't insist on sending Viserys off on his own so much, or with minimal support. It keeps happening over and over and every freaking time I worry about Viserys being overwhelmed or ganked because of simple things like failing a Concentration check at the wrong time. :(
Again, how do you even want to cause enough damage to Viserys for that to work? Your earlier posted True Strike + Orb of Force combo splashes harmlessly against Wings of Cover. We have Anklets of Translocation to escape melee and a Quickened Resilient Sphere can either get us a breather or trap the enemy. And going close combat against Viserys, who has AC 42 is hardly the same as going against your usual squishy wizard. Trelmarixin, Horseman of Famine, has AC 45 and he is a CR 27 monster.

I get it that you are worried about it, but this isn't the existential threat you are trying to blow it up to.
 
Again, how do you even want to cause enough damage to Viserys for that to work? Your earlier posted True Strike + Orb of Force combo splashes harmlessly against Wings of Cover. We have Anklets of Translocation to escape melee and a Quickened Resilient Sphere can either get us a breather or trap the enemy. And going close combat against Viserys, who has AC 42 is hardly the same as going against your usual squishy wizard. Trelmarixin, Horseman of Famine, has AC 45 and he is a CR 29 monster.

I get it that you are worried about it, but this isn't the existential threat you are trying to blow it up to.
That was actually an example @TalonofAnathrax used. It's not a bad one, though. Even with the +10 Concentration bonus we added to his ring this month, Viserys' base Concentration bonus is just +34. Depending on the luck of the dice, anything that inflicts just 24 or more damage could cause Viserys to fail a Concentration check to cast a spell. Even with a best case scenario and a Nat 20 roll, suffering 55+ damage would be a guaranteed to overwhelm Viserys' ability to compensate, barring buff shenanigans (it's one of the reasons so many of my combat plans include Divine Insight and Grand Destiny).

Action Economy isn't just a weird phrase some of us like to throw around for fun, dude.

Wings of Cover uses an Immediate Action to cast. If Viserys has already cast a spell or used any other Standard Action, plus a Swift Action to cast spells like Nerveskitter or Assay Spell Resistance (which is all but required to defeat the Spell Resistance of most high level enemies nowadays), he can't use an Immediate Action in that round unless he burns Celerity to do so, which has problems of its own. The same applies for using Anklets of Translocation, Quickened Resilient Sphere, etc.

Also, AC doesn't mean shit to most spells and even when it does, we're starting to run into enemies with Attack Bonuses in the high +30s. You can't just judge toughness based on AC.
 
Again, how do you even want to cause enough damage to Viserys for that to work? Your earlier posted True Strike + Orb of Force combo splashes harmlessly against Wings of Cover. We have Anklets of Translocation to escape melee and a Quickened Resilient Sphere can either get us a breather or trap the enemy. And going close combat against Viserys, who has AC 42 is hardly the same as going against your usual squishy wizard. Trelmarixin, Horseman of Famine, has AC 45 and he is a CR 29 monster.

I get it that you are worried about it, but this isn't the existential threat you are trying to blow it up to.
DP doesn't seem to allow us to use immediate action against immediate actions. @DragonParadox, please confirm? I remember this being an issue when Celerity started coming up.
Furthermore, we often don't use Wings of Cover because we can't. We use Arcane Spellsurge and quickened spells, which is amazing on the attack but stops us from using immediate actions.
And AC 42 isn't much of an issue for an opportunity attack with mage slayer or for a touch spell.

I'm not saying that it's an existential threat, but I am saying that it's currently our biggest vulnerability in combat. We have good saves and a big pile of HP, SR, and immediate action counters to most things.
 
That was actually an example @TalonofAnathrax used. It's not a bad one, though. Even with the +10 Concentration bonus we added to his ring this month, Viserys' base Concentration bonus is just +34. Depending on the luck of the dice, anything that inflicts just 24 or more damage could cause Viserys to fail a Concentration check to cast a spell. Even with a best case scenario and a Nat 20 roll, suffering 55+ damage would be a guaranteed to overwhelm Viserys' ability to compensate, barring buff shenanigans (it's one of the reasons so many of my combat plans include Divine Insight and Grand Destiny).

Action Economy isn't just a weird phrase some of us like to throw around for fun, dude.

Wings of Cover uses an Immediate Action to cast. If Viserys has already cast a spell or used any other Standard Action, plus a Swift Action to cast spells like Nerveskitter or Assay Spell Resistance (which is all but required to defeat the Spell Resistance of most high level enemies nowadays), he can't use an Immediate Action in that round unless he burns Celerity to do so, which has problems of its own. The same applies for using Anklets of Translocation, Quickened Resilient Sphere, etc.

Also, AC doesn't mean shit to most spells and even when it does, we're starting to run into enemies with Attack Bonuses in the high +30s. You can't just judge toughness based on AC.
You can take an Immediate action outside your turn, costing you your next Swift. So we can use one after casting with a Swift, it just means we can't cast for a Swift next turn.

I'm actually aware of how the Action Economy works.

And I can certainly now begin mentioning all the other defensive measures, like Greater Blink, or the myriad items that make us immune or highly resistant to many, many spells. To say nothing about the sky high saves and SR, though I think @Snowfire is right and it serves little point to continue this argument.
 
Interlude CD: Sage's Riddle
Sage's Riddle

Twenty-Second Day of the Eighth Month 293 AC

"A beacon in the dark where night encroaches. A torch to shed light upon an empire's enemies. A flame to burn when corruption lays revealed. My voices which will not go unheard." Viserys' words were like shimmering fire upon the air, bright with the conviction, the truth of their telling. Pride surged in Lya's heart for the purpose her work would be put to, and with that pride came understanding illuminated in the light of newborn flames.

Who are you?—the question she had asked since girlhood.

Diligently she had sought answers first in her past, her birth, the hand that lay her upon the temple steps swaddled and sleeping, then in the light of the Moon, in the tomes hidden row upon row in dusty silence, yet all she had found were more questions, more riddles to answer. For a time she had thought that the answer.

A seeker of knowledge that girl counter herself pridefully as she unrolled a scroll almost fallen to dust, as she spoke words of old and pondered abstractions of the soul as she questioned all she met that she might know the world in all its intricacies. But though she loved it dearly, that was not the whole of the answer, the edges still sharp and unfinished in the mind.

Where do you stand?


Unbidden came the second question as power and learning flowered in her hands, for knowledge alone was a barren thing. As truths wondrous and terrible lay out before her she knew she could not stand aside. She would fight besides her friends and loved ones against the dark, though she had no love of battle, Lya had vowed then. She would bear her own light into the world that others might fashion it after their own manner. Not one truth stood before her, but many. Not one virtue unassailable in purity, but many, wonder in their mingled radiance.

Distantly, she heard Viserys speak on: "Hear me now, for that which was lain to ruin by grasping fools now has risen anew."

A small nod followed the sort of thoughtful gesture all who knew Lya well would have recognized. 'She's on the trail of an answer,' they would say, and so she was. The young mage followed the silvered thread of understanding with the same determination as ever she had a mystery's key.

What will you do?

It was easy to destroy with magic, easy to burn and tear, to pierce and slay—these were among the first lessons the mage had learned and for good reason. There was much yet to battle and many foes to end, yet where her passion lay was in such as she now saw before her—a new thing born, drawn from her mind, forged with her power, yet now a part of the world, no longer under her hand. That, Lya understood, was her legacy to learn all she could, and with that learning make a better world.

The shadows in that twilight chamber shift... no, it was she who saw clearer, deeper, through the lens of her new understanding, the symbols beneath the symbols, the truths too heavy for the world to bear she glimpsed like great beasts moving under the waters of the sea. Is this how Viserys had felt in Valyria? she wondered.

As though thinking his name had called him forth their gazes met, and in his eyes she saw wonder and joy of sharing just as she had that first night in the moonlight when she had understood the workings of his magic, taken them apart, and echoed them in her own way. Yes, this was the way.

Where it led Lya could not say for certain, but she was all the more excited to find out.

OOC: The voting for Lya's mythic path is now open. I know things are a little tense but remember we all want to have an enjoyable story so it's best to either seek a compromise, or just vote for one's preferred option and let the count decide. As far as I am concerned there is no wrong answer here. I trust you guys to come up with something interesting whether it is from canon options or custom ones.
 
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I'm going to have to ask for some time to get Sage complete, and illness isn't helping. However, if you vote for it, be aware that we will only be getting a Feat to choose. I'm building Lya a custom Arcana and she's getting Forge of Creation at Rank 1.

Detail will be up soonest.
 
[X] Visers Mythic Tier 2
-[X] Ability: Elemental Bond
-[X] Attribute: +2 CHA

[X] Lya Mythic Tier 1
-[X] Path: Sage (WIP)
-[X] Arcana: Wild Arcana
-[X] Feat: Twin Paths Hierophant
--[X] Inspired Spell
-[X] Ability: Crafting Mastery
-[X] Vote to be amended as @Snowfire finishes the details.
 
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All I've been seeing the past few pages were words and numbers.

Anyone can do a TLDR for the differing votes?
Talon: wants to keep to prefab Mythic Path (Archmage), considers it already perfect for Lya.

Snowfire: wrote a thing he (and some others) consider better fit for Lya fluff-wize.

Azel: wants Viserys to take an ability that is suboptimal at the moment, but fluffy as all hell.

Goldfish: Wants to take a more optimal (no concentration checks) ability, considers it valid fluff-wize too, but Azel and Snowfire argue both points.
 
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All I've been seeing the past few pages were words and numbers.

Anyone can do a TLDR for the differing votes?
My vote (being posted soon) keeps Lya as a prepared spellcaster, but lets her cast spells as a swift action and forces the target to reroll their successful saves. It also doubles her crafting speed. Viserys auto-succeeds Concentration checks under pressure.

Azel's lets her spontaneously cast any arcane or divine spell as a standard action, 5 times per day. It also has a crafting-based ability. Viserys has a small bonus to fire damage that will increase as our mythic ranks increase.

Goldfish has a compromise vote, where Lya can spontaneously cast the divine spells but has the "prepared spells are faster and stronger" effect for arcane spells. Viserys gets the "cast under pressure" thing I want.
 
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Please don't. Talon is the only one who doesn't want Wild Arcana.
I am NOT!
I got a bunch of people agreeing that Lya should stay a mostly prepared caster. Want me to go get the quotes?

What I want:
Viserys : more spontaneous spells !
Lya: prepared spells are stronger, can be cast several times !
 
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