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A Sword Without a Hilt: A Song of Ice and Fire/D&D 3.5 Crossover

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Azel said:
@Snowfire, so what is that you actually want to say / do?

I get your thoughts, which is precisely why I want to leave him some time to internalize this discussion and look for his own answers so that we further drift away from the Tywin-Light appearance we have for him now.
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[/] Plan Tempest's Forge
-[/] "Do you think I saw the path that led me here when I was but a boy in Braavos? Do you think that the world dances to a hidden drum, that we are all but players, and some of us have a secret way to call changes to the dance?" Direct attack on his cynicism. We're proposing something insane, and something that also attacks the idea that the Lannisters have any true, enduring power over him. If they had such power, surely they would have used it against Viserys.
-[/] "I came here from my own will, Hound. I fought and killed and won and learnt and from all those things, this city and more came to pass. I never once required fate," the word is not quite a curse, but it is close, "to bring me here." Attacking the above, layering on a degree of what we've done, and forcing the dissonance around us to push at his world.
-[/] "You can fight, Clegane. You can kill. But you've never won, not the fight that matters to you. And you refuse to let yourself learn what you'll need to do so until you've died trying. You let yourself be wielded by others, and used like the name you took." This is...well, vicious. Directly hitting the foundations of his worldview whilst they're turning. As close as I'm comfortable with Viserys getting to weaponized psych on someone who isn't an outright enemy.
-[/] "Prophecy is never entirely true, but if what Moonsong said to you appeals? You can choose to make it true, or take a different road. Not being able to see the path until you've walked it is what makes us free. But until you do that, until you choose to step away from this comforting lie that you've made of yourself, then you will just be the man who let his brother do that," point at the burn scars, "to him. And when you die, there will be other chains waiting for you." More of the above, culminating in slamming an icepick into the heart of his entire world
-[/] "Or you can take that sword, and win with it something that the Mountain will never be able to touch. The choice is yours." Hope. There is no weapon more lethal and cruel.
-[/] If at any point Sandor attempts to brand Viserys with the same brush as Tywin, or someone like him, riposte with the evidence of his own eyes around him. Sorcerer's Deep is not a city of Westeros. No matter how hard Sandor might try to deceive himself, the proof is right there in front of his eyes. He can run from that if he likes, but he can't hide from it now.

I'm not 100% certain that this will work. I don't know Sandor all that well. But I know his mind, or at least one like it. This could probably use some touch-ups, but at the end of the day, @Azel, if you have dissonance and want to make it stronger, you use it. Sandor isn't someone to just...allow to sit there and stew. He'll just go back to what's familiar. That's what he does. A proper counselling environment would give him the safety to explore a world where that wasn't needed. I don't care enough to try to give him that, and I don't think it would work, anyway.
 
DragonParadox said:
Still probably more care and attention for Sandor's mental well-being than he has ever gotten.
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That doesn't make me feel any better about it. This sort of skill is meant to be used to heal, without causing harm. Not what I've suggested doing with it. That I'm 'better' than Cersei fucking Lannister is such a low bar it's a damn joke.
 
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Snowfire said:
That doesn't make me feel any better about it. This sort of skill is meant to be used to heal, without causing harm. Not what I've suggested doing with it. That I'm 'better' than Cersei Lannister is such a low bar it's a damn joke.
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I did not mean that as a direct 1 to 1 comparison to people in positions of power over him, more as a observation that no one has ever given enough of a damn about the Hound to even put the words 'Sandor Clegane' and 'mental well-being' in the same phrase, at lest not since he was a child before he was wounded mentally and physically by his brother. There is also the fact that IC this is pseudo-medieval hellhole where no one has even seriously asked the questions which led to the rules you are referring too.
 
Snowfire said:
-[/] "I came here from my own will, Hound. I fought and killed and won and learnt and from all those things, this city and more came to pass. I never once required fate," the word is not quite a curse, but it is close, "to bring me here." Attacking the above, layering on a degree of what we've done, and forcing the dissonance around us to push at his world.
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Well, actually - didn't we come here after we got evicted from Braavos?
Snowfire said:
That doesn't make me feel any better about it. This sort of skill is meant to be used to heal, without causing harm. Not what I've suggested doing with it. That I'm 'better' than Cersei fucking Lannister is such a low bar it's a damn joke.
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Snowfire, it's still just about a fictional character. As long as you are aware of what you could do to real persons and don't do it, playing it out in a simulated environment is okay.
 
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DragonParadox said:
I did not mean that as a direct 1 to 1 comparison to people in positions of power over him, more as a observation that no one has ever given enough of a damn about the Hound to even put the words 'Sandor Clegane' and 'mental well-being' in the same phrase, at lest not since he was a child before he was wounded mentally and physically by his brother. There is also the fact that IC this is pseudo-medieval hellhole where no one has even seriously asked the questions which led to the rules you are referring too.
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And I understand that all. I really do. It doesn't make me feel much better about what I just proposed we do. And, honestly, nothing will. That's the point of ethics. They don't turn themselves off. Ever.
 
Snowfire said:
I'm not 100% certain that this will work. I don't know Sandor all that well. But I know his mind, or at least one like it. This could probably use some touch-ups, but at the end of the day, @Azel, if you have dissonance and want to make it stronger, you use it. Sandor isn't someone to just...allow to sit there and stew. He'll just go back to what's familiar. That's what he does. A proper counselling environment would give him the safety to explore a world where that wasn't needed. I don't care enough to try to give him that, and I don't think it would work, anyway.
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I think you are gravely missing your mark here. Trying to hammer hope into him will backfire, turn into more self-hatred and do really unpretty things to him.
 
MTB said:
Snowfire, it's still just about a fictional character. As long as you are aware of what you could do to real persons and don't do it, playing it out in a simulated environment is okay.
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No. It's not. Because playing it out in a simulated environment is just a few steps short of making it real. This is another part of why I find it so hard to hurt my characters. Because simulation for me...isn't, not most of the time. I know what I'm doing to them, and I know if it's wrong. It's what would probably make me a really crappy horror writer.
 
Snowfire said:
No. It's not. Because playing it out in a simulated environment is just a few steps short of making it real. This is another part of why I find it so hard to hurt my characters. Because simulation for me...isn't, not most of the time. I know what I'm doing to them, and I know if it's wrong. It's what would probably make me a really crappy horror writer.
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Hm... no. Not really. Lovecraft's entire bibliography is an illustrated guide to his own fears and derangement's. He could reach people with it just because those fears were real to him, while everyone around him wrote shallow power fantasies at the time.

Personally, I take a lot of my horror elements from my own dreams, and while I never got much in-depth feedback to it, it seems to work decently well.
 
Azel said:
Hm... no. Not really. Lovecraft's entire bibliography is an illustrated guide to his own fears and derangement's. He could reach people with it just because those fears were real to him, while everyone around him wrote shallow power fantasies at the time.

Personally, I take a lot of my horror elements from my own dreams, and while I never got much in-depth feedback to it, it seems to work decently well.
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You probably don't receive in-depth feedback because people are trying to suppress those memories shortly after reading them. :V

You know, there is a difference when writing to titillate, and writing to disturb, though I will admit the line between the two is easy to stumble back and forth over.
 
Azel said:
Hm... no. Not really. Lovecraft's entire bibliography is an illustrated guide to his own fears and derangement's. He could reach people with it just because those fears were real to him, while everyone around him wrote shallow power fantasies at the time.

Personally, I take a lot of my horror elements from my own dreams, and while I never got much in-depth feedback to it, it seems to work decently well.
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The issue is convincing myself to actually, you know, let those parts of myself...yuck...out to play with someone.

I've done that a few times. The only records that survive of it are electronic. Because I have access to a fire and burn anything I put down on paper in that vein.
 
Crake said:
You probably don't receive in-depth feedback because people are trying to suppress those memories shortly after reading them. :V

You know, there is a difference when writing to titillate, and writing to disturb, though I will admit the line between the two is easy to stumble back and forth over.
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That line is really difficult to find, since it's drawn on the readers side, not the authors. You can throw words at a page / forum all you want, but the emotional response to them are outside your control.

Though I do hope I fall more on the disturbing side, since I'm personally not a fan of gorn and are trying very hard to avoid it. Which is kinda difficult when my style is fundamentally visceral.
Snowfire said:
The issue is convincing myself to actually, you know, let those parts of myself...yuck...out to play with someone.

I've done that a few times. The only records that survive of it are electronic. Because I have access to a fire and burn anything I put down on paper in that vein.
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I could write a whole book in response to this, but I will refrain from doing so.
 
Azel said:
I could write a whole book in response to this, but I will refrain from doing so.
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I am quite aware that what I'm doing isn't logical. But I prefer vague feelings of horror over the idea that I'm partially possessed by an utterly amoral and sadistic cognitohazard. Hey, there's that book synopsis for you :V
 
Azel said:
Though I do hope I fall more on the disturbing side, since I'm personally not a fan of gorn and are trying very hard to avoid it. Which is kinda difficult when my style is fundamentally visceral.
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That had certainly been the case from my reading, though for me it's the psychological aspects of your horror not the visceral ones tht are the most intriguing.
 
Snowfire said:
I am quite aware that what I'm doing isn't logical. But I prefer vague feelings of horror over the idea that I'm partially possessed by an utterly amoral and sadistic cognitohazard. Hey, there's that book synopsis for you :V
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The book synopsis I would write would be more along the lines of: "You are a anti-social jerk for ignoring the poor eldritch horrors in your noggin. The number of mouths and eyeballs shouldn't stop you from being friends!" :V
 
Azel said:
The book synopsis I would write would be more along the lines of: "You are a anti-social jerk for ignoring the poor eldritch horrors in your noggin. The number of mouths and eyeballs shouldn't stop you from being friends!" :V
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Aaand this is back into "what if H.P Lovecraft wrote books for children?" territory. :V
 
DragonParadox said:
That had certainly been the case from my reading, though for me it's the psychological aspects of your horror not the visceral ones tht are the most intriguing.
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The visceral part is more my general style, less the actual horror. Though I certainly like myself something gross and terrifying when the plot calls for some big beasty to be terrified of.
 
Azel said:
The book synopsis I would write would be more along the lines of: "You are a anti-social jerk for ignoring the poor eldritch horrors in your noggin. The number of mouths and eyeballs shouldn't stop you from being friends!" :V
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This implies that I'm not equally possessed by hyper-moral sanity complexes that keep the cognitohazard at bay.

Or is that just book two in the series?
 
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