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A Sword Without a Hilt: A Song of Ice and Fire/D&D 3.5 Crossover

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Azel said:
Plate armor was a response to the introduction of firearms, though as firearms improved, plate couldn't keep up and ultimately fell out of favor.
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And then they fixed this issue, by just using more manpower and giving them all increasingly lethal weapons!

Man, the more I think back to warfare in the era where men were packed together in blocks eating musket shot from each other (or maybe Total War games have lead me wrong here), the more you realize how cruel it would be to introduce black powder weapons

We already have bottled Crimes Against Humanity and magitech superweapons, why do we need to make warfare more lethal for the common grunt than it already is? Because ultimately that's all gunpowder would do for us. We use armies for delegation of conflict, not winning wars, which ultimately will come down to PCs hunting each other down and targeting magical infrastructure and weapons before they can be utilized.
 
Crake said:
And then they fixed this issue, by just using more manpower and giving them all increasingly lethal weapons!

Man, the more I think back to warfare in the era where men were packed together in blocks eating musket shot from each other (or maybe Total War games have lead me wrong here), the more you realize how cruel it would be to introduce black powder weapons

We already have bottled Crimes Against Humanity and magitech superweapons, why do we need to make warfare more lethal for the common grunt than it already is? Because ultimately that's all gunpowder would do for us. We use armies for delegation of conflict, not winning wars, which ultimately will come down to PCs hunting each other down and targeting magical infrastructure and weapons before they can be utilized.
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Thing is, we are rapidly moving towards 21st century warfare in both equipment and doctrine. Magic makes it possible.

Regular firearms are simply not worth the effort to develop to a sufficient degree. What would be useful right now is machine guns and sniper rifles, not matchlock muskets.
 
Azel said:
Thing is, we are rapidly moving towards 21st century warfare in both equipment and doctrine. Magic makes it possible.

Regular firearms are simply not worth the effort to develop to a sufficient degree. What would be useful right now is machine guns and sniper rifles, not matchlock muskets.
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Maybe we can meet in the far future and work on some Flashlights and Bolters. :V
 
I remember a post on Gitp that proved that following basic pathfinder rules, pistols were inferior to wands of magic missile not only in combat power, but also in convenience: wands are easier to create, easier to use, and easier to transport.

Note that this was for pathfinder pistols.
 
@Crake, you should mention our desire to build many bridges and that in return, we would see a trade harbour built right next to the Twins. From that location, they become a very useful crossroad for Westerosi trade.

Goods move up the Trident and it's tributaries from Saltpans, then are unloaded at the Twins and either shipped on to the North or the short stretch to Seagard before being loaded back on a ship and moved across the Sunset Sea.
 
Frankly, a laser rifle would be the most likely infantry firearm we could get. Use a magic converter, cram in a glowy crystal battery and then fire force-beams.
 
[X]Plan Scheming and Plotting, The Westerosi Way
-[X] If it wasn't already obvious, the deal for formal and informal obligations towards us in regards to Black Walder is, he helps us maneuver and prod his relatives in beneficial directions, supplies us the information we need on them, and of course continues doing good work in the Riverlands drawing order from chaos with the Lads, and there's almost certainly lordship resting in his future somewhere. Barring any... unchancey happenings.
-[X] Tell us about the Freys. No, not all of them, we'd be here forever. Who's erudite, with a scholarly mind and more importantly with the right combination of actually being capable of en-kindled loyalty as well as an open mind? Chances are we won't offer half as many places in the Scholarum to Lord Frey as he desires, nor to some of the more maladapted or manipulative ilk, either.
-[X] Squirings and Wardings. Honors. What that says about Lord Frey is that he's still one of the Old Guard of Westeros, and unlikely to change too soon. Still, he's more open-minded than most, which is saying something. It costs us little except rude talk by disgruntled Lords, but you don't want to surround yourself with dozens of Stoats, either. Ask about a few of the younger Freys. The ones who can still be... moulded to our purposes.
-[X] We won't countenance talk of lordships when the board is still in motion and loyalties are still in flux. The corollary to this if pressed is that they should be of a mind to develop their own lands, which they will need all resources including manpower to do as it is.
-[X] Get an overview of their lands, Black Walder seems insightful enough to understand what we're working with. Then grab a dozen economic advisors (because these days you just have those) and draw up an outline to help develop the region economically, contacts with the Iron Bank, your trading conglomerate for shipping and manufacturing, whatever might be necessary to roll out the changes in a timely fashion post conquest. Then dicker over the ultimate cost. You can subsidize with the best of them, but when it comes to taxes, the dragon gets its due.
-[X] Part 2
--[X] We want to build many bridges throughout the Riverlands, but just baldly saying that might decide whether the Freys will rouse for Robert Baratheon or Tywin Lannister alone. We still are going to do that, but we lead in with the offer to help build a trade harbour right next to the Twins. This would help the Freys retain their current status as a crossroad for Westerosi trade, with goods moving up the Trident and its tributaries from the Saltpans, which are then unloaded at the Twins and either shipped on to the North or the short stretch to Seagard, before being loaded back on a ship and moved across the Sunset Sea.
--[X] It also follows that from such a crossroad a major population center might form, and while they will not be the only House to receive a charter for a city, they will have that to look forward to. Being more relevant in local politics than the Tullys has to serve as somewhat of a balm, at the very least.
 
DragonParadox said:
For a long moment Black Walder is silent. When he finally speaks his words are measured, though he does not constrain his ever-growing smile. "You know that reminds me of a story the septon made me read in the Seven Pointed Star when I was a boy, the one where a demon comes to Hugor and shows him the world and says he can have any part of it if he swears to him."

"And are you feeling particularly holy Ser Knight?" you ask, perhaps more entertained that you should be by the comparison.

"Not in the slightest Your Grace," Black Walder replies with relish, before getting down to business.
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[BEING THE BADDIES INTENSIFIES]
 
Crake said:
-[X] We won't countenance talk of lordships when the board is still in motion and loyalties are still in flux. The corollary to this if pressed is that they should be of a mind to develop their own lands, which they will need all resources including manpower to do as it is.
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I would amend this:

It's too early to talk details, but the Freys will be one of the great winners of this, that we will make sure. The list of vassals Walder Prime has in mind sounds like a good working draft, though he isn't getting the Tullys. That would just perpetuate the unrest in the Riverlands. But don't worry, the Tullys will get what's coming to them.
 
Generally speaking, it would be impossible for the Freys to develop multiple fiefs, nor would we want them to centralize that much power. They want to be a big bad local player? Well, they are already that. This deal would help them be on par with the Hightowers or Redwynes, at the very least, in terms of influence and wealth.

I think the above should be enough. It will probably still take at least a couple of victories over Tywin and Robert rather than more distant conquests before thoughts of treachery leave their mind completely, but already as @LonelyWolf999 has pointed out on numerous occasions, we are natural allies, because of the following:

1) Tywin may offer him Riverun, but he'd be a fool to make Frey overlord of the Riverlands, and of course he clearly hates Walder as much as any lord, and holds onto grudges with the best of them. *points to Genna*
2) Tywin will never help Walder develop his lands to the extent that we are offering, nor could he even. The resources, such as manufactured goods, shipping capacity, and trained and skilled administrators, are all things he wouldn't want Walder to have access to in a million years.
3) There are various political concerns to go with the strategic ones to describe why he would make a mediocre enemy. The most significant thing he could do at this point would be try to sell out our local guerrillas using inside men, and Black Walder likely has their loyalty already. It is clear he doesn't fancy those odds and we've only spoken with him for a few hours.
Worst comes to worse, we kill Walder, off/exile/relegate Black Walder's brother, and ensure succession proceeds smoothly for him from there. We get the cake, and we get to threaten to burn the cake to the ground a couple of times because it amused us, before then eating the cake anyway.
 
@Azel I just decided to quote your verbatim.

[X]Plan Scheming and Plotting, The Westerosi Way
-[X] If it wasn't already obvious, the deal for formal and informal obligations towards us in regards to Black Walder is, he helps us maneuver and prod his relatives in beneficial directions, supplies us the information we need on them, and of course continues doing good work in the Riverlands drawing order from chaos with the Lads, and there's almost certainly lordship resting in his future somewhere. Barring any... unchancey happenings.
-[X] Tell us about the Freys. No, not all of them, we'd be here forever. Who's erudite, with a scholarly mind and more importantly with the right combination of actually being capable of en-kindled loyalty as well as an open mind? Chances are we won't offer half as many places in the Scholarum to Lord Frey as he desires, nor to some of the more maladapted or manipulative ilk, either.
-[X] Squirings and Wardings. Honors. What that says about Lord Frey is that he's still one of the Old Guard of Westeros, and unlikely to change too soon. Still, he's more open-minded than most, which is saying something. It costs us little except rude talk by disgruntled Lords, but you don't want to surround yourself with dozens of Stoats, either. Ask about a few of the younger Freys. The ones who can still be... moulded to our purposes.
-[X] We won't countenance talk of lordships when the board is still in motion and loyalties are still in flux. The corollary to this if pressed is that they should be of a mind to develop their own lands, which they will need all resources including manpower to do as it is. It's too early to talk details, but the Freys will be one of the great winners of this, that we will make sure. The list of vassals Walder Prime has in mind sounds like a good working draft, though he isn't getting the Tullys. That would just perpetuate the unrest in the Riverlands. But don't worry, the Tullys will get what's coming to them.
-[X] Get an overview of their lands, Black Walder seems insightful enough to understand what we're working with. Then grab a dozen economic advisors (because these days you just have those) and draw up an outline to help develop the region economically, contacts with the Iron Bank, your trading conglomerate for shipping and manufacturing, whatever might be necessary to roll out the changes in a timely fashion post conquest. Then dicker over the ultimate cost. You can subsidize with the best of them, but when it comes to taxes, the dragon gets its due.
-[X] Part 2
--[X] We want to build many bridges throughout the Riverlands, but just baldly saying that might decide whether the Freys will rouse for Robert Baratheon or Tywin Lannister alone. We still are going to do that, but we lead in with the offer to help build a trade harbour right next to the Twins. This would help the Freys retain their current status as a crossroad for Westerosi trade, with goods moving up the Trident and its tributaries from the Saltpans, which are then unloaded at the Twins and either shipped on to the North or the short stretch to Seagard, before being loaded back on a ship and moved across the Sunset Sea.
--[X] It also follows that from such a crossroad a major population center might form, and while they will not be the only House to receive a charter for a city, they will have that to look forward to. Being more relevant in local politics than the Tullys has to serve as somewhat of a balm, at the very least.
 
@Crake, the thing is, what Walder wants is basically my division plan + Riverrun.

Which is pretty nice, since it would make him powerful enough to be useful, but not powerful enough to be a threat.
 
Azel said:
Frankly, a laser rifle would be the most likely infantry firearm we could get. Use a magic converter, cram in a glowy crystal battery and then fire force-beams.
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I think our best bet would be a coil gun arrangement made from sequenced Launcher effects.

If DP would let us, I can see three Launcher-effects being stacked to accelerate a dart-sized projectile sufficiently to hit as hard as a Light Ballista Bolt(3d6) which is stronger than a .50 cal sniper rifle by D&D Modern rules.

It would be moderately expensive, but they could be done by low level enchanters.
 
I don't want to promise Riverrun yet, for a couple of reasons. It is just another quiver to make it more palletable for Ned not to object to your "split the North" ruminations, since we didn't give them the Lannister treatment, and secondly while it would not make Walder a big enough threat to us, removing the Tullys removes the neat divide upon which the discontent can rally around for us to cleanly sweep up all at once in the future, nor does it hedge upon the Freys not later curbing the influence of everyone else relevant to our interests in central Westeros. They already have a huge amount of influence around the realm through marriages, give them extreme wealth, and authority over the area which we are soon going to make into our wheelhouse by seizing control of Harrenhal for the Legion and administration, and you will eventually have jurisdictional issues rising up in a generation.

From my look of things, our biggest base of support is going to be in the South-to-West Riverlands, the counter-pull is going to be in the North just from Big-Dick Frey influence, and the rabble will be in the East.

Those sound like good enough divisions already.

And we already plan on doing something to the Vances.

Though the point of the vote is to explicitly state that we haven't decided what to do with Hoster yet, other than the fact that the best he could hope for is holding onto Riverrun. And the fact it would be trivially easy to sell Grudge Keeping Walder on the idea of living Tullys he can lord his new status over without really raising discontent from the group of Riverlanders who would HATE the idea of Freys having Riverrun, because it ignores local politics. Holding Riverrun and the majority of former Tully Vassals at once would basically be the same as ruling the Riverlands.

One step removed anyway.

And I still have plans to make Mooton and Darry economic powerhouses.
 
Crake said:
Generally speaking, it would be impossible for the Freys to develop multiple fiefs, nor would we want them to centralize that much power. They want to be a big bad local player? Well, they are already that. This deal would help them be on par with the Hightowers or Redwynes, at the very least, in terms of influence and wealth.

I think the above should be enough. It will probably still take at least a couple of victories over Tywin and Robert rather than more distant conquests before thoughts of treachery leave their mind completely, but already as @LonelyWolf999 has pointed out on numerous occasions, we are natural allies, because of the following:

1) Tywin may offer him Riverun, but he'd be a fool to make Frey overlord of the Riverlands, and of course he clearly hates Walder as much as any lord, and holds onto grudges with the best of them. *points to Genna*
2) Tywin will never help Walder develop his lands to the extent that we are offering, nor could he even. The resources, such as manufactured goods, shipping capacity, and trained and skilled administrators, are all things he wouldn't want Walder to have access to in a million years.
3) There are various political concerns to go with the strategic ones to describe why he would make a mediocre enemy. The most significant thing he could do at this point would be try to sell out our local guerrillas using inside men, and Black Walder likely has their loyalty already. It is clear he doesn't fancy those odds and we've only spoken with him for a few hours.
Worst comes to worse, we kill Walder, off/exile/relegate Black Walder's brother, and ensure succession proceeds smoothly for him from there. We get the cake, and we get to threaten to burn the cake to the ground a couple of times because it amused us, before then eating the cake anyway.
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We should keep in mind that Tywin isn't in a good position to outbid us anymore. What he can offer is threats, money and brides.

But threats ring a bit hollow when the current state of the conflict between Westeros and us looks not exactly like an easy victory for Tywin anymore. Not by a long shot. They failed to kill us when it was Westeros vs. The Stepstones. Now it's Westeros vs. The Stepstones, The Three Daughters, Braavos, likely Volantis and Various Stuff Around The World.

Tywin demanding that the Fist is obeyed rings rather hollow.

As for money... bitch, please. Our credit rating is Yes, our ships and companies rake in money left and right and the Iron Bank acts like a over eager puppy in our vicinity. Anyone who has seen SD, which was a pirate shanty town two years ago, knows that we can match the gold mines of the Rock and then some. Add to that our extraplanar friends and magic being on the table and a few shiny, yellow rocks look not terribly appealing anymore.

So bribery is also shaky. Doubly so when the gold price will begin to lurch.

That leaves brides. He got us beat there, but on the other hand... how many houses will we empower again? Quite a few. The marriage market for loyalists will look great once we are done.

And lastly, we keep a rack full of skulls of our enemies. One we are not shy about. Would you really want to betray someone who would keep your skull as a lesson for the next guy?
 
Contrary to popular belief, we only keep your skull if it has interesting things to whisper to us about.

Most Freys have hot air and wishful thinking up there.
 
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