A Sword Without a Hilt: A Song of Ice and Fire/D&D 3.5 Crossover

[The crazy demon]

For what its worth, I do read all the arguments. But my web browsing is done through phone.

And doing an effortpost in a phone is hell ;_;

 

[Dracikral]

I believe we can do it, Goldfish. Not enough thought has gone into the various ways we can approach this. Aradia has met Davos, we can subtly influence his advisers in such a way to put us in a position to put our real weapons, or social credibility and our social skills, to the test, and leverage the things we have accomplished to more than tertiary benefits, side notes to votes that leave people disgruntled and only eventually settling down the middle of two options that the majority find equally shitty.

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I came up with an idea earlier of further aligning Cersei and the Lannister court against Stannis here:

I was also thinking of also decrying Cersei while being disguised as one of Stannis men/mages. We know from interludes that Cersei thinks she's an arch age and knows all there is to know about magic since killing that one Kingsguard we enchanted a while back. If one of Stannis's mages started making fun of the Queens lack of magical knowledge I'm certain she'd go ballistic. She would then order Stannis to bring said Mage to be executed I imagine, but if he reports he can't find the Mage she'd start thinking he's protecting the Mage, thus involved in sullying her reputation. Which since the court isn't primarily Lannister aligned would align the court against Stannis.

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What do you think? Possible, Improbable, too convoluted?

 

[Crake]

Hmm. Well I, sorry that not responding to you made you feel like a pariah. That's never been my view of you either before or after you stopped took a break. Usually I use your posts as a guideline on viewing certain topics such as dealing with Stannis, or how Viserys would use this step and the first step on a path of Good Itentions. But I'll try to add more to the discussions by popping in a bit more and seeing if I can add anything helpful.

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This would really be great. I unblocked Tarrangar because I feel like his opinions these day actually hold more merit than my own. At least he stuck with the Quest consistently and never thought that he was being pressed out of discussion by more than their own doing.

I have repeatedly run into that wall where not everything is about binary choices from whichever major posters decide the issue really pertains how they will vote going forward them specifically and emphatically, rather than just on a case-by-case basis.

I almost wish we could vote on things case-by-case, instead of insinuating vapidly that each vote will effect all others for all time, because at least discussion would be more vital, vigorous and productive. People could actually engage with the thread with fresh eyes, unbelabored by previous decisions as if we're fucking congress and we have to keep in mind that we've already ruled on such and such and thus the vote was a "foregone conclusion".

Wanting to vote so that you are "staying true to the character" is one thing, but a lot of the time it appears there's not even a fig leaf to that, just people saying "I don't want the quest to devolve to X" when it's patently not even proven to be the case, considering we take all types, and fucking should.

 

[Crake]

I came up with an idea earlier of further aligning Cersei and the Lannister court against Stannis here:


What do you think? Possible, Improbable, too convoluted?

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I also really like your idea of being subtly subversive. I think we could focus a lot of people's attention away from our intrigue efforts around Westeros simply by misdirection, but with all the administrative and military stuff going on, the part of the Quest I feel I don't stagnate in, intrigue, is a sideshow.

 

[Duesal]

I'd like to bring up my proposal again.

I've got an idea that might work out.

You know how there was the whole fiasco with Robert blowing up when he heard that Ned Stark met with us at the Wall?

What if we did some kind of meeting with Stannis? A meeting that could reasonably be heard about in the Red Keep (as public as possible, with plausible deniability that we tried to spread the news).

Stannis has already been hit with a diplo crit that it's Viserys' duty to protect Westeros from all supernatural threats. Maybe we could meet with him regarding the impending threat of the Deep Ones invasion of the surface world?

Then Robert hears about the meeting and gets pissed.

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I think it's got a fair shot of success considering the victories we've already had with Stannis. The main faultline would be somehow making sure that Robert hears about it soon. I'm still not sure how we'd manage that.

That said, if this idea did succeed the results would be spectacular.

Thoughts?

 

[Dracikral]

This would really be great. I unblocked Tarrangar because I feel like his opinions these day actually hold more merit than my own. At least he stuck with the Quest consistently and never thought that he was being pressed out of discussion by more than their own doing.

I have repeatedly run into that wall where not everything is about binary choices from whichever major posters decide the issue really pertains how they will vote going forward them specifically and emphatically, rather than just on a case-by-case basis.

I almost wish we could vote on things case-by-case, instead of insinuating vapidly that each vote will effect all others for all time, because at least discussion would be more vital, vigorous and productive. People could actually engage with the thread with fresh eyes, belabored by previous decisions as if we're fucking congress and we have to keep in mind that we've already ruled on such and such and thus the vote was a "foregone conclusion".

Wanting to vote so that you are "staying true to the character" is one thing, but a lot of the time it appears there's not even a fig leaf to that, just people saying "I don't want the quest to devolve to X" when it's patently not even proven to be the case, considering we take all types, and fucking should.

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Huh I can't honestly say I've seen much of the latter part of your statement. Could you clarify the part where people are saying "I don't want the quest to devolve to X?" I'm not doubting you it's just that I didn't notice it myself so I'm wondering what else I've missed.

 

[Dracikral]

I'd like to bring up my proposal again.

I think it's got a fair shot of success considering the victories we've already had with Stannis. The main faultline would be somehow making sure that Robert hears about it soon. I'm still not sure how we'd manage that.

That said, if this idea did succeed the results would be spectacular.

Thoughts?

Click to shrink...

I honestly quite like it. We could honestly just meet with him similar we did to Ned to report that he has to be wary of Illithads Devils, Demons and all sorts of things that go bump in the night. Since Robert will automatically hear about this somehow (man rumors get everywhere) he'll be pissed at Stannis. This'll cause further divide between the brothers. Bonus points if we can subvert Cersei and the Lannister court against Stannis concurrently thereby getting both the Baratheon and Lannister portion of Kings Landing against Stannis.

Also @Duesal on the part of hearing about it soon maybe we could schedule the meeting with Stannis at a similar timeframe to when Robert is heading North?

 

[Sqweaktoy]

I no longer trust you to not use it against someone (it won't be me) a week or a month or a year down the line to justify something else. It's something you do, and I'm not sure you even notice.

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I'm going to step in here, unwise as that may be, to make a point. Most of the time when Azel does this, he is firing back at people doing other bad faith arguments at him first. Also, some of the arguments he's working against right now aren't exactly on the most solid rhetorical footing. Please (and this isn't directed at you @Snowfire , this is just a convenient place to mention it.) don't start throwing below the belt punches at Azel just because he doesn't have the exact same moral framework as you
That is all.
I will freely admit that I agree with the parts in Snowfire's post here about the idea being OOC for Viserys as I read the character, and for personal reasons not something I'm willing to vote for besides, where we differ is that I'm not offended at Azel for suggesting it, because it fits what I know about him.

 

[chryssalideater]

The vote is looking pretty settled, y'all. Rather than further belaboring the argument, can we instead start brainstorming our next moves?

We have good reason to keep Stannis off the Small Council. Is accomplishing that actually worth burning through the influence we have with him? Could we instead turn him to our cause? If we convince him that his duty is to preserve Westeros' strength and prevent it from falling prey to monsters and madmen, rather than to his brother, we might have a very nice inside angle to Robert's court.

As for Varys; do we simply disappear him? Or should we stage something that would cause further turmoil in the Usurper's Court? Should he have willingly cast his lot in with us? Sought out the Golden Company? Etc?

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We will not be turning Stannis in that manner. Either Robert is the rightful king, in which case Stannis is just, or Robert is an usurper, in which case Stannis has been complicit in the usurption of the throne. One is unhelpful to us, the other is Unpalateable to Stannis.

My suggestion is thus: after we complete our Intel collection on Varys, we visit Storm's End and gather a complete list of rumors and plots. We also get a list of court intrigue that relates to Stannis. Then when we bust Varys, we plant evidence connecting to any malicious rumours about Stannis either in court or from Storm's End. We the utilize littlefinger (who we are planning to make into a catspaw anyway to bring the matter to cersei's attention in an attempt to curry favor. Cersei see's the obvious motive and doesn't question any secondary motive's, and brings it up to Robert in court. at this point, the Lannisters are obligated to back Cersei, and Chaos Reigns. Ideally, nothing severe happens but stannis does get snubbed for the position over "ridiculous allegations." Worse case he gets imprisoned/set up for execution, which we can deal with as it happens. Thoughts?

 

[Crake]

Huh I can't honestly say I've seen much of the latter part of your statement. Could you clarify the part where people are saying "I don't want the quest to devolve to X?" I'm not doubting you it's just that I didn't notice it myself so I'm wondering what else I've missed.

Click to shrink...

The previous salt-based discussions, taking a situation that appears in the present, out of context, and comparing it to previous situations that have maybe one thing in common with it.

Azel's not even the prime suspect, I'm sure I've done it before.

I just find that I'm part of the problem.

I have never hidden this fact since I quit a little while ago. I am part of the problem.

I am... not even sure if I'm trying to fix the problem. Back then I said it couldn't be fixed. Maybe that's defeatist?

I think I could take a lateral approach and just tunnel under it somehow. It would involve DP inserting at least a few open-ended votes to drive the quest in a direction that isn't decided by board approach due to the fact that people don't have the time to devote to forming a turn plan. Keep to the agreed upon general delegated events, and then give some flexibility opportunities on the basis that posters won't get to participate if they don't have the ability to divide our attention from fore-running interests.

 

[Crake]

We will not be turning Stannis in that manner. Either Robert is the rightful king, in which case Stannis is just, or Robert is an usurper, in which case Stannis has been complicit in the usurption of the throne. One is unhelpful to us, the other is Unpalateable to Stannis.

My suggestion is thus: after we complete our Intel collection on Varys, we visit Storm's End and gather a complete list of rumors and plots. We also get a list of court intrigue that relates to Stannis. Then when we bust Varys, we plant evidence connecting to any malicious rumours about Stannis either in court or from Storm's End. We the utilize littlefinger (who we are planning to make into a catspaw anyway to bring the matter to cersei's attention in an attempt to curry favor. Cersei see's the obvious motive and doesn't question any secondary motive's, and brings it up to Robert in court. at this point, the Lannisters are obligated to back Cersei, and Chaos Reigns. Ideally, nothing severe happens but stannis does get snubbed for the position over "ridiculous allegations." Worse case he gets imprisoned/set up for execution, which we can deal with as it happens. Thoughts?

Click to shrink...

I'm in support.

 

[The crazy demon]

We'll, we could always have the meeting and start the rumor by ourselves via top agent Tiserys Vargaryen, there is a lot of stuff we could probably use as discussion fodder for Stannis.

Thing is, Robert will probably decide to have Stannis socially crucified over said rumors

 

[chryssalideater]

Stannis "the Mannis" Baratheon framejob/recruitment post:

I've got an idea that might work out.

You know how there was the whole fiasco with Robert blowing up when he heard that Ned Stark met with us at the Wall?

What if we did some kind of meeting with Stannis? A meeting that could reasonably be heard about in the Red Keep (as public as possible, with plausible deniability that we tried to spread the news).

Stannis has already been hit with a diplo crit that it's Viserys' duty to protect Westeros from all supernatural threats. Maybe we could meet with him regarding the impending threat of the Deep Ones invasion of the surface world?

Then Robert hears about the meeting and gets pissed.

Click to shrink...

Arrange a personal meeting with Stannis; make sure Robert finds out about it.

I was also thinking of also decrying Cersei while being disguised as one of Stannis men/mages. We know from interludes that Cersei thinks she's an arch age and knows all there is to know about magic since killing that one Kingsguard we enchanted a while back. If one of Stannis's mages started making fun of the Queens lack of magical knowledge I'm certain she'd go ballistic. She would then order Stannis to bring said Mage to be executed I imagine, but if he reports he can't find the Mage she'd start thinking he's protecting the Mage, thus involved in sullying her reputation. Which since the court isn't primarily Lannister aligned would align the court against Stannis.

How about this plan @Azel

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Disguise as one of Stannis's mages, talk shit about Cersei and wait for her to go ballistic. Stannis will refuse to offer up a scapegoat, and court relations would go south.

My suggestion is thus: after we complete our Intel collection on Varys, we visit Storm's End and gather a complete list of rumors and plots. We also get a list of court intrigue that relates to Stannis. Then when we bust Varys, we plant evidence connecting to any malicious rumours about Stannis either in court or from Storm's End. We the utilize littlefinger (who we are planning to make into a catspaw anyway to bring the matter to cersei's attention in an attempt to curry favor. Cersei see's the obvious motive and doesn't question any secondary motive's, and brings it up to Robert in court. at this point, the Lannisters are obligated to back Cersei, and Chaos Reigns. Ideally, nothing severe happens but stannis does get snubbed for the position over "ridiculous allegations." Worse case he gets imprisoned/set up for execution, which we can deal with as it happens. Thoughts?

Click to shrink...

Gather all rumors from KL, Storm's End, etc. and use it to tie Stannis to Varys' demon summoning. Potentially use Littlefinger as a catspaw.

Hmmm... Wait. How well known is it that Stannis is rounding up the tattered remnants of the alchemists? We've ensured that the people of King's Landing despise the alchemists. Rumors could easily spark about them.

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Inflame rumors about Stannis sheltering former pyromancers accused of summoning demons.
That's four so far.

Please ping me if you've got your own, and I'll try to bring it up when the time comes.

 

[Duesal]

I honestly quite like it. We could honestly just meet with him similar we did to Ned to report that he has to be wary of Illithads Devils, Demons and all sorts of things that go bump in the night. Since Robert will automatically hear about this somehow (man rumors get everywhere) he'll be pissed at Stannis. This'll cause further divide between the brothers. Bonus points if we can subvert Cersei and the Lannister court against Stannis concurrently thereby getting both the Baratheon and Lannister portion of Kings Landing against Stannis.

Click to shrink...

The main problem I'm seeing is that Stannis might insist on complete privacy. If he does that I'm really not sure how we'd make sure Robert hears about us meeting with him.

Another thing -- we could expand this, potentially.

I might be reaching here, but hear me out. What if in addition to warning about the Deep Ones invading soon -- who Stannis already has unpleasant personal experiences with -- we took Stannis to the Wall and told him the Long Night is coming?

Lots and lots of potential witnesses.

And to top it all of, we give him a Valyrian Steel Longsword in preparation of the return of the Others. Rumors would just fly if we convinced him to accept the sword.

It sounds good in my head, but it could very easily fail. I dunno. I'd like to give it a shot at least.

We'll, we could always have the meeting and start the rumor by ourselves via top agent Tiserys Vargaryen, there is a lot of stuff we could probably use as discussion fodder for Stannis.

Thing is, Robert will probably decide to have Stannis socially crucified over said rumors

Click to shrink...

Being socially crucified is better than him being forced to march against us and us having to annihilate an entire stormlander army.

 

[Dracikral]

Please ping me if you've got your own, and I'll try to bring it up when the time comes.

Click to shrink...

Nice thing about these ideas are they aren't totally exclusive from each other. We can easily do the meeting on the Wall with Stannis while discrediting his social standing through either planted evidence, or impersonating one of his liege men and speaking the truth *cough* I mean insulting the Queen.

 

[Dracikral]

The main problem I'm seeing is that Stannis might insist on complete privacy. If he does that I'm really not sure how we'd make sure Robert hears about us meeting with him.

Another thing -- we could expand this, potentially.

I might be reaching here, but hear me out. What if in addition to warning about the Deep Ones invading soon -- who Stannis already has unpleasant personal experiences with -- we took Stannis to the Wall and told him the Long Night is coming?

Lots and lots of potential witnesses.

And to top it all of, we give him a Valyrian Steel Longsword in preparation of the return of the Others. Rumors would just fly if we convinced him to accept the sword.

Click to shrink...

I'm pretty sure we had our meeting with Ned in complete privacy and see where that led. Rumors man. I have no idea how the info spreads but it does.

 

[Crake]

The main problem I'm seeing is that Stannis might insist on complete privacy. If he does that I'm really not sure how we'd make sure Robert hears about us meeting with him.

Another thing -- we could expand this, potentially.

I might be reaching here, but hear me out. What if in addition to warning about the Deep Ones invading soon -- who Stannis already has unpleasant personal experiences with -- we took Stannis to the Wall and told him the Long Night is coming?

Lots and lots of potential witnesses.

And to top it all of, we give him a Valyrian Steel Longsword in preparation of the return of the Others. Rumors would just fly if we convinced him to accept the sword.

It sounds good in my head, but it could very easily fail. I dunno. I'd like to give it a shot at least.

Being socially crucified is better than him being forced to march against us and us having to annihilate an entire stormlander army.

Click to shrink...

The Others is a existential threat, whereas the Deep Ones and Devils are ghosty and hard to prepare against without local infrastructure.

Others you have to unite to face. What if Stannis says "unite under Robert?" It's not guaranteed, no but, we can continue to build relations with threats that ghost in and out of the foreground. Transient ones, not impending ones.

 

[chryssalideater]

The main problem I'm seeing is that Stannis might insist on complete privacy. If he does that I'm really not sure how we'd make sure Robert hears about us meeting with him.

Click to shrink...

I feel like I keep using littlefinger...but littlefinger. Honestly, I don't think anyone would be surprised he found out, especially if we somehow link him to taking down Varys "For the good of the Realm."

 

[Duesal]

Nice thing about these ideas are they aren't totally exclusive from each other. We can easily do the meeting on the Wall with Stannis while discrediting his social standing through either planted evidence, or impersonating one of his liege men and speaking the truth *cough* I mean insulting the Queen.

Click to shrink...

Hmmm... Wait. How well known is it that Stannis is rounding up the tattered remnants of the alchemists? We've ensured that the people of King's Landing despise the alchemists. Rumors could easily spark about them.

 

[Dracikral]

Hmmm... Wait. How well known is it that Stannis is rounding up the tattered remnants of the alchemists? We've ensured that the people of King's Landing despise the alchemists. Rumors could easily spark about them.

Click to shrink...

I think its quite well known actually. I'm not sure which post, but I think it was actually remarked on that Stannis was collecting them.

 

[chryssalideater]

I think its quite well known actually. I'm not sure which post, but I think it was actually remarked on that Stannis was collecting them.

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Remember if it mentioned people's reactions to it /whether it was before or after shit went up in flames in King's Landing?

 

[Dracikral]

Hmmm... Wait. How well known is it that Stannis is rounding up the tattered remnants of the alchemists? We've ensured that the people of King's Landing despise the alchemists. Rumors could easily spark about them.

Click to shrink...

Here we go

​

"Harwyn Half-hand widened it. He is an alchemist, one of the lucky ones who ended up in Lord Stannis Baratheon's employ after their guild was... destroyed." Here she gives you a measuring look, whether suspecting some measure of the truth or simply wishing to gauge your reaction you cannot say. "As for who built it in the first place..."

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EDIT: Thank you @Crake and @Duesal for teaching me the art of thread search-fu

 

[chryssalideater]

Here we go

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Interesting. It's after the guild blew up, so arguing that Stannis is sheltering demon worshippers would work-especially if we could tie it back to Varys' actual demon summonings.

 

[Dracikral]

Interesting. It's after the guild blew up, so arguing that Stannis is sheltering demon worshippers would work-especially if we could tie it back to Varys' actual demon summonings.

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True. Though I do think we'll need to hurry and set up an intrigue network in Kings Landing ASAP if we're banking on rescuing Stannis before execution if we're going to be going with demon worshiping rumors. I'd hate to be late and learn about Stannis's execution only after it had taken place.

 

[Crake]

Here we go


EDIT: Thank you @Crake and @Duesal for teaching me the art of thread search-fu

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You have learned to jump, young Padawan. Now you must learn to fly.