A Sword Without a Hilt: A Song of Ice and Fire/D&D 3.5 Crossover

[Crake]

I was also molling around somewhere. How the fuck did a vote for getting a cat...
Oh, that explains it.

[X] Snowfire

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It's always a cat in this thread, you're from the old guard, you should know that by now.

 

[chryssalideater]

It's always a cat in this thread, you're from the old guard, you should know that by now.

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Real talk fuck that cat. IDK even remember who he really was/what happened to him but fuck that cat. Piece of shit fucking with party alignment & party composition. Go meddle with someone else's life you preachy jackass.

 

[Azel]

Ok, so, I'm going to give this a shot, because I've realised that if I don't, I may well be done for good and I'd really prefer not to be. I've changed my vote to that of @Sqweaktoy in a likely vain attempt that might go through, now I feel I have no choice but to address why.

Simply put, if we go through with this, this is the point at which we should lose any right to remaining Lawful Neutral. This is the point at which we stop having any claim, whatsoever, to being better than the Lannisters. Because we will have willfully, personally inflicted pain and possibly crippling permanent trauma on a child younger than our niece, for no other reason than fleeting political gain.

Age matters in this, first on a personal level for no reason that's truly logical, because there is an overwhelming drive in the society I've grown up in that children are precious. They are to be protected. If pain is inflicted on them, you help them heal. We are betraying that.

Second, on a character level; for all his flaws, Viserys isn't evil. He cares for people, for the harm he inflicts, and he accepts (or has up to this point) that there are some lines that are too far to cross. That's part of being Lawful Neutral. What Tywin allowed to happen to our goodsister, niece and nephew was one such line. We're about to abandon it for political gain.

Just like Tywin did. Someone Viserys hates for doing it.

@Azel you went on a lot a few days ago about consequences. Have you even considered the ones for this? The ones we will pay, on a personal level, for having just effectively said by our actions that all the pain our goodsister and her children suffered was ok, because it helped solidify a political position. Because that's what you're arguing. A total betrayal of what has long been one of the most positive and interesting traits in Viserys as a character.

Third, and perhaps finally, there is absolutely no reason to do this. At all. We could implicate our target here in any of a thousand ways, easier ways, less magically taxing ways, and ones that wouldn't effectively make the torture of children presented as totally ok so long as it gains us some nebulous political advantage. Just put her to sleep and give her a memory of having played with the cat then having a nap. It gets her out of our way and costs us nothing.

Something I wrote in one of the latest HT chapters is coming back to me here, and I feel it lies at the heart of the rift that's been present on this thread since pretty much forever. The point at which a child is an opportunity instead of a child is the point at which you become a monster.

I'm not saying that those voting for Azel's plan are monsters. @Azel I'm not meaning to call you one either. But this plan is wrong. Even for Viserys as he is now.

For the love of god, can you just compromise with me here? Please. I don't want to never be able to come back to this thread again without feeling sick about what it looks like we're about to do, from the current vote tally.

That's my piece. Goodnight.

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First off, thank you for writing this out, but I do want to argue your position.

I get that you are concerned over lasting effects from this, but I thought long and hard about my plan and it's impact on her and it is far less then you imply here. I don't propose to specifically scare her, nor do I want to use anything truly graphic or heinous. I could have proposed a Bone Devil instead, but I didn't. I could have proposed Varys sacrificing Balerion to his fell masters, which would have neatly explained the cats absence, but I didn't.

What I did propose is a nearly human looking Devil, saying vaguely threatening things and manhandling her. This is minor. This is something millions of children dream about each night. Is it a pleasant dream? Certainly not, but I never claimed that. It is a nightmare. Plain and simple.

But it is far, far removed from what Tywin did to other children. Tywin slaughtered them for political gain. He had their heads bashed in and their mother raped next to the corpses. This here is not a Tywin plan. If he were in our position, he would kill Myrcella on the spot, just to get rid of an enemy heir and to traumatize Cersei.

As I've said earlier, I do not claim the moral high ground here, but it is important to keep things in perspective. This is a minor thing. It will cost neither Myrcella nor Viserys much, except maybe a few nights of sleep. She will forget about the whole incident in a few weeks entirely on her own. Little kids are like that. And they are more resilient then you give them credit for, especially as any fear she will feel is just fake. She is a medieval princess. The local entertainment includes seeing people beheaded in front of the Great Sept of Baelor. Or hanged. Or drawn and quartered. She can deal just fine with a bad man with some horns and funny skin.

But what would this gain us? It would keep Stannis on the sidelines in the war. It would keep the Stormlands on the sidelines. If we don't act soon, and I honestly don't see any good opportunities if we don't grasp this one coming up in time, Stannis will be back on the Small Council and oppose us in the war. That means the levies of the Stormlands marching against us in the field, thousands going to war and likely not returning. For what? For Stannis sense of duty in the end, but we can sidestep this right here and now by keeping him away from Robert. We can shorten the war and lessen the number of deaths just by being a bit mean to a little girl. Do all these faceless peasants really matter so little that we can't make that choice? Do their wives and children loosing a father or brother not warrant some compassion?

When we recruited Yrael, we told him we would do whatever is necessary to see the world brought to peace and safety. Is this necessary? Maybe not. Is it our best and most likely only chance to save thousands more? Yes. It is.

So let us take the hard choice, the unpleasant choice, because for all it's ugly bits, it's the better one.

 

[chryssalideater]

@Azel theoreticals are one thing, but assurances would be nice @DragonParadox Sorry to bug you over something like this, but is there a way to modify the memory so it would fade out at an accelerating rate/dampen the emotional impact? Memories get less painful over time, so basically a way of speeding that process up/having it be like that already.

Also, are you seriously arguing that there will be no better opportunity and that we can't make another one further down the line at some point? Because if you really believe that then sure let's do it, but if there's another way of doing this, I think it might be out of character for Viserys to do this, because let's be clear: we don't NEED to do this. It's convenient, but we don't need to. If you really think we can't have our cake and eat it too then fine but if not, I can't vote for this, because my heart won't be in it.

 

[Crake]

@Azel, I appreciate and kind of find some insight in the above post, but just to provide a corollary to Snowfire's position, this could be construed as "today it is just using a little girl for some political gain by doing something vaguely unpleasant but from a position of unrelenting power and dominance".

You know, I.E, I could have done anything, but instead I just gave her nightmares that her subconscious will suppress one day soon.

The next kid, I will place in a moderately dangerous position from which they will almost assuredly recover, and if they do not then I can help them later and gain their loyalty.

Next it will be threatening them to make them fear and hate an imagined threat, implicating someone who "really deserves it" and vilifying someone else not only because it is convenient, but because they must be stopped.

The basis for the previous arguments of those you are talking to involve those 'brain hacks' which forms the basis of a lot of culture. In a lot of places children are placed on pedestals, yet this is not like celebrities who's inanities and worthless extravagant pursuits gains them both adoration and intense and macabre attention, but an instinctual response formed stemming from the animal hind-brain in the majority of the human population.

The above was all an example of the so-called "slippery slope", which often forms the basis of a logical fallacy. I don't approve of it, but there's some merit to the base, animal fear that from doing some minor harm, later on, when the benefit to the many, or all out of proportion, the benefit to oneself, greatly outweighs the harm done to a single individual, that a man, which Viserys is, as much as a Dragon, loses all sense of perspective and becomes the monster he vows never to become.

This is a... I don't know, a principles thing. It's something you do because you want to constantly remind yourself you are so above the worms beneath you, as your instincts cry out to subjugate and dominate, and instead you viscerally reign that instinct in and turn it into another tool, a brand that can warm and burn, heal and hate, save and damn.

No one is saying doing this will lead to the above.

Almost everyone here will probably admit that they can see the basis for later actions and how this one might appear sketchy from this particular context of Viserys acting in this manner.

Statistics have little to do with it, it's just a niche interest of someone who has been outspoken of their single issue voting preferences towards psychology.

You are a policy voter, you view this under the lens of policy, and act as if Snowfire votes even a semblance of similarity to that. He doesn't. He is far and away from it.

Even with the best intentions, like the post above to explain your intentions, it comes off as horrifying from someone who has admitted they have difficulty untangling themselves from the perspective and position of the characters they are in the headspace of.

We are all in Viserys' headspace right now when voting, or that is the ideal at any rate. Just reminding y'all about that.

 

[Snowfire]

So let us take the hard choice, the unpleasant choice, because for all it's ugly bits, it's the better one.

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No.

You continue to fail to understand, and I can't seem to explain it to you. But at the end of the day, there are lines. And leaving aside everything I've said re: why this is wrong, if we cross this one, I no longer trust you to not use it against someone (it won't be me) a week or a month or a year down the line to justify something else. It's something you do, and I'm not sure you even notice.

So there's no point trying to explain anymore. Not if you're adamant in your refusal to even consider compromise in the face of something that is so blatantly wrong. You're arguing degrees when they're irrelev- no.

I can't get this through. And it's not worth my reducing myself to a wreck trying. Again, this is something you do. It's how you grind people out of this quest, force them into their own corners, and why you're the only person crafting votes sometimes. Because there is no point in trying to fight you. You're conviced that making the hard decision equates to the right one, and I? I disagree. You've just finally hit the point that my disgust has overrode my ability to engage rationally. Congratulations.

You'll never convince me otherwise, and I clearly will never convince you, no matter how deeply it will mutilate Viserys as a character - and it will. I have the better track record on those predictions, and you know it.

So if you won't even entertain compromise, we have nothing to talk about.

 

[Azel]

@Azel theoreticals are one thing, but assurances would be nice @DragonParadox Sorry to bug you over something like this, but is there a way to modify the memory so it would fade out at an accelerating rate/dampen the emotional impact? Memories get less painful over time, so basically a way of speeding that process up/having it be like that already.

Also, are you seriously arguing that there will be no better opportunity and that we can't make another one further down the line at some point? Because if you really believe that then sure let's do it, but if there's another way of doing this, I think it might be out of character for Viserys to do this, because let's be clear: we don't NEED to do this. It's convenient, but we don't need to. If you really think we can't have our cake and eat it too then fine but if not, I can't vote for this, because my heart won't be in it.

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Stannis is already in consideration for that post, which is currently vacant.

As I've said, I was thinking frantically how to prevent this the whole time, but didn't find any solution. They might name him Master of Laws first thing next month, leaving us zero time for other maneuvers or ploys. Appealing to Stannis directly is pointless, unless we somehow manage to break his feeling of duty towards his brother and that is something even years of abuse by Robert couldn't. Even our insane socials would fail there.

The other options is to discredit him directly at court, because grumbling and rumors would be too little and reach the court too late. We need something fast that goes directly to Robert or someone else who can influence policy. If anything, I fear that this is too little, but I hope that Cersei ramps up her full Screeching Harridan routine over this.

Again. I'm open for suggestions. If you have a good plan that prevents Stannis from going back to the Small Council, I will fold on this. But otherwise, I rather do this then torch down the army of the Stormlands.

 

[Dracikral]

[X] Snowfire

Well it seems we'll have to find another way to persuade Stannis. But Snowfire and Crake have a point, and I'd rather not go down a slope of Good Intentions.

 

[Snowfire]

The other options is to discredit him directly at court, because grumbling and rumors would be too little and reach the court too late. We need something fast that goes directly to Robert or someone else who can influence policy. If anything, I fear that this is too little, but I hope that Cersei ramps up her full Screeching Harridan routine over this.

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To do a breakdown on this, as you did to me: I am unsure that what I am going to do to this innocent girl will even give me the result I want, but you know, let's do it anyway. It's not as if she's important.

 

[Dracikral]

@Azel is it possible we could just kind whammy Cersei herself? I'm pretty sure it's within our full scope of power to implant the same type of memories within Cersei that we wanted to implant in Myrcella. Hell we try this option on any of the Lannister courtiers. Of course the message would have to be altered a little since there won't be a direct threat to the heirs lives which won't be as visceral but we could probably think of something.

 

[chryssalideater]

Stannis is already in consideration for that post, which is currently vacant.

As I've said, I was thinking frantically how to prevent this the whole time, but didn't find any solution. They might name him Master of Laws first thing next month, leaving us zero time for other maneuvers or ploys. Appealing to Stannis directly is pointless, unless we somehow manage to break his feeling of duty towards his brother and that is something even years of abuse by Robert couldn't. Even our insane socials would fail there.

The other options is to discredit him directly at court, because grumbling and rumors would be too little and reach the court too late. We need something fast that goes directly to Robert or someone else who can influence policy. If anything, I fear that this is too little, but I hope that Cersei ramps up her full Screeching Harridan routine over this.

Again. I'm open for suggestions. If you have a good plan that prevents Stannis from going back to the Small Council, I will fold on this. But otherwise, I rather do this then torch down the army of the Stormlands.

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I can think of another one maybe. Your plan revolves around discrediting Stannis by tying him to Vary's in the assumption that when Vary's goes down, we can take stannis down with him. However, when Varys' spy ring falls apart, it won't be quiet. Notes, informants, "little birds"; most of them are going to be exposed. If we plant some evidence in Varys' lair when we find it, we can tie Stannis to him that way; no need to bring the kid into it. Hell, we can probably go the extra mile and get Littlefinger to bring it up to the court if we come to an "arrangement" with him; that way even if people think something's off, it seems like it's one of littlefinger's tricks instead of our doing, which implicates the lannisters in the long term.

 

[Crake]

To do a breakdown on this, as you did to me: I am unsure that what I am going to do to this innocent girl will even give me the result I want, but you know, let's do it anyway. It's not as if she's important.

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This is the real reason I'm not voting for Azel. I don't particularly care about Myrcella, but Viserys wouldn't do harm to a child just because it might theoretically benefit him, or even if it doesn't go as planned, might create chaos for my enemies and thus harm them, and by extension, benefit me.

The best plans have a maximum of three steps, being the most uncomplex, and from that paradigm, the real maximum limit of any plan is actually two steps.

If there was a two step plan from which giving Myrcella a nightmare would have real and tangible benefit, I would admit there was merit to the plan from a purely utilitarian perspective. I'm not sure if I would make that vote, but it would actually hold some weight.

We have no idea of the outcome of this, when it is formed on the basis that there is a specific and desired outcome. We have no idea if it will occur, or if we will be able to course correct or manipulate events to our designs.

And overall, I just find it a little unpleasant to harm kids when Viserys has gone on record saying "I don't harm children". It has little to do with morality, even though I do see it as empirically a moral choice on the face of it.

It has everything to do with following established character traits, which include: keeping your goddamn word, no matter how unpleasant. A reputation can never be recovered until the old one has passed out of living memory, in which case you cease to exist as the previous entity in the first place.

 

[Duesal]

Stannis is already in consideration for that post, which is currently vacant.

As I've said, I was thinking frantically how to prevent this the whole time, but didn't find any solution. They might name him Master of Laws first thing next month, leaving us zero time for other maneuvers or ploys. Appealing to Stannis directly is pointless, unless we somehow manage to break his feeling of duty towards his brother and that is something even years of abuse by Robert couldn't. Even our insane socials would fail there.

The other options is to discredit him directly at court, because grumbling and rumors would be too little and reach the court too late. We need something fast that goes directly to Robert or someone else who can influence policy. If anything, I fear that this is too little, but I hope that Cersei ramps up her full Screeching Harridan routine over this.

Again. I'm open for suggestions. If you have a good plan that prevents Stannis from going back to the Small Council, I will fold on this. But otherwise, I rather do this then torch down the army of the Stormlands.

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I've got an idea that might work out.

You know how there was the whole fiasco with Robert blowing up when he heard that Ned Stark met with us at the Wall?

What if we did some kind of meeting with Stannis? A meeting that could reasonably be heard about in the Red Keep (as public as possible, with plausible deniability that we tried to spread the news).

Stannis has already been hit with a diplo crit that it's Viserys' duty to protect Westeros from all supernatural threats. Maybe we could meet with him regarding the impending threat of the Deep Ones invasion of the surface world?

Then Robert hears about the meeting and gets pissed.

 

[Crake]

I've got an idea that might work out.

You know how there was the whole fiasco with Robert blowing up when he heard that Ned Stark met with us at the Wall?

What if we did some kind of meeting with Stannis? A meeting that could reasonably be heard about in the Red Keep (as public as possible, with plausible deniability that we tried to spread the news).

Stannis has already been hit with a diplo crit that it's Viserys' duty to protect Westeros from all supernatural threats. Maybe we could meet with him regarding the impending threat of the Deep Ones invasion of the surface world?

Then Robert hears about the meeting and gets pissed.

Click to shrink...

I really like this plan, and moreover, Stannis might actually meet us. We have some stored credit with him at this point.

 

[Dracikral]

I was also thinking of also decrying Cersei while being disguised as one of Stannis men/mages. We know from interludes that Cersei thinks she's an arch age and knows all there is to know about magic since killing that one Kingsguard we enchanted a while back. If one of Stannis's mages started making fun of the Queens lack of magical knowledge I'm certain she'd go ballistic. She would then order Stannis to bring said Mage to be executed I imagine, but if he reports he can't find the Mage she'd start thinking he's protecting the Mage, thus involved in sullying her reputation. Which since the court isn't primarily Lannister aligned would align the court against Stannis.

How about this plan @Azel

 

[Azel]

No.

You continue to fail to understand, and I can't seem to explain it to you. But at the end of the day, there are lines. And leaving aside everything I've said re: why this is wrong, if we cross this one, I no longer trust you to not use it against someone (it won't be me) a week or a month or a year down the line to justify something else. It's something you do, and I'm not sure you even notice.

So there's not point trying to explain anymore. Not if you're adamant in your refusal to even consider compromise in the face of something that is so blatantly wrong. You're arguing degrees when they're irrelev- no.

I can't get this through. And it's not worth my reducing myself to a wreck trying. Again, this is something you do. It's how you grind people out of this quest, force them into their own corners, and why you're the only person crafting votes sometimes. Because there is no point in trying to fight you. You're conviced that making the hard decision equates to the right one, and I? I disagree. You've just finally hit the point that my disgust has overrode my ability to engage rationally. Congratulations.

You'll never convince me otherwise, and I clearly will never convince you, no matter how deeply it will mutilate Viserys as a character - and it will. I have the better track record on those predictions, and you know it.

So if you won't even entertain compromise, we have nothing to talk about.

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I am in fact perfectly willing to entertain compromise, yet you are not offering one.

You are arguing that doing this is amoral. I'm not arguing that fact.
I'm saying it has benefits to do this, benefits that I see no way to otherwise achieve. Benefits that do not stop at Viserys Targaryens convenience, but which impact a lot of people and a lot of lifes. You are not arguing that fact either.

If you are offering a compromise that achieves the goals I have, at least in part, I will gladly consider it. But when you position remains to not do anything, please do not try to foist the onus of having to bring up a middle-ground to me.

I can think of another one maybe. Your plan revolves around discrediting Stannis by tying him to Vary's in the assumption that when Vary's goes down, we can take stannis down with him. However, when Varys' spy ring falls apart, it won't be quiet. Notes, informants, "little birds"; most of them are going to be exposed. If we plant some evidence in Varys' lair when we find it, we can tie Stannis to him that way; no need to bring the kid into it. Hell, we can probably go the extra mile and get Littlefinger to bring it up to the court if we come to an "arrangement" with him; that way even if people think something's off, it seems like it's one of littlefinger's tricks instead of our doing, which implicates the lannisters in the long term.

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The issue with this is that the evidence is too hard. My ploy works best from an unreliable source and both Trusted Master of Coin Littlefinger (*retching sound*) and Lost Notes of Varys are both too trustworthy. They might end with Stannis actually executed. Which I would prefer not to happen, but it's still strictly better then having him fight on Roberts side.

 

[chryssalideater]

I am in fact perfectly willing to entertain compromise, yet you are not offering one.

You are arguing that doing this is amoral. I'm not arguing that fact.
I'm saying it has benefits to do this, benefits that I see no way to otherwise achieve. Benefits that do not stop at Viserys Targaryens convenience, but which impact a lot of people and a lot of lifes. You are not arguing that fact either.

If you are offering a compromise that achieves the goals I have, at least in part, I will gladly consider it. But when you position remains to not do anything, please do not try to foist the onus of having to bring up a middle-ground to me.

The issue with this is that the evidence is too hard. My ploy works best from an unreliable source and both Trusted Master of Coin Littlefinger (*retching sound*) and Lost Notes of Varys are both too trustworthy. They might end with Stannis actually executed. Which I would prefer not to happen, but it's still strictly better then having him fight on Roberts side.

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I say if we get to the point where Stannis is going to be executed, it's a small step from there to sending him to the wall, which most certainly works for us. Regardless, I'm certainly not convinced this is our only option.

 

[Crake]

Stannis being executed in of itself would actually be somewhat to our benefit, considering we could resurrect him and gain someone who has experienced STAUNCH and absolute injustice. You know what he feels about that.

 

[Crake]

I say if we get to the point where Stannis is going to be executed, it's a small step from there to sending him to the wall, which most certainly works for us. Regardless, I'm certainly not convinced this is our only option.

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Also, if Stannis were to be sentenced to take the Black, we could intercept him on the way.

I don't know if we could convince him on the basis that he was "punished by the lawful king", but Viserys could obviously claim to be the lawful king and in the same breath also provide some evidence that corroborates his innocence.

Again, @Azel, we have social capital with Stannis, enough to at least get him to consider we are on the up-and-up.

 

[Dracikral]

Stannis being executed in of itself would actually be somewhat to our benefit, considering we could resurrect him and gain someone who has experienced STAUNCH and absolute injustice. You know what he feels about that.

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Hell we could even try rescuing him from the Dungeon in the Keep if we hear that he's been scheduled for execution. That'd probably win us some points.

 

[Arimai]

1) The plan to fuck with Varys through Myrcella compromises our operational freedom.
2) It fucks up our alignment and shifts us to the evil side of Neutral.
3) It is unnecessary
4) We are allied with Angels, Djinn and Shaitan. If they find out, and they will, it will bite Viserys in the arse. You can say goodbye to the angels and would force us to garrison troops to secure our territory against the Angels in Mantarys.

 

[The crazy demon]

Stannis probably will refuse on grounds of being actually fucking legally dead

 

[Walliseatscheese]

Is it our best and most likely only chance to save thousands more? Yes. It is.

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So, your primary argument for this action is the likely removal of Stannis from the board, and with him the majority of the Stormlands.

If we are able to otherwise remove Stannis (and the Stormlands) from the Westerosi equation, then you would be more than willing to let this opportunity go, or use it for a different pay off, or such is my reading of yourself and your argument.

Therefore, I purpose analysis on the three following ideas.

Kidnapping Stannis on the precipice of the Westerosi War. It removes the Lord Paramount from play and delays the Stormlands response while a suitable Regent is found. We Amber Sarcophagus him and let him out after the war with his family and holdings intact and Stannis should be somewhat amenable, or at least as amenable as Stannis gets. It doesn't remove the Stormlands from play as a military force, but the delay for gathering together the knights and levies may be enough to allow other theaters to be solved, pushing the Stormlands into a more agreeable position to negotiate with.

Initiating a Great Council, possibly after Robert has died in some fashion, probably through our own machinations. Basically removing the entire idea of War from the table by bashing people over the head with our big fat social skills and using this as a reason to dig deep into the backgrounds of the other candidates, potentially allowing us to ICly have cause to magically look into the lineage of Cersei's children. Stannis has already acknowledged that it's our duty to protect the Realm, so demonstrating our competence in a Grand Council should allow him to concede the Throne to a legitimate candidate.

The third idea is one that's just occurred to other people as well. Meet with Stannis to discuss the Deep One Threat, possibly with discussion on how we can help the Stormlands form an aquatic Anti-Deep One force. This has the politicalness of "Associated with the Dragon" and the refocus of military forces to defending against Deep One incursions. Of course, we'd need to walk the line of our Truce but I trust in our ability to walk that edge without slipping over in a way the Deep Ones can use against us.

Do any of these seem sufficiently viable for you to use as a basis for removing Stannis and the Stormlands from the table?

 

[Azel]

The issue I have with these plans that have a higher likelihood of Stannis dying is that recent discussion has shown clear evidence that people don't want to risk that. At all.

If we were voting right now on definitely pinning something on Stannis in some other fashion, regardless of the higher potential to actually cause charges being leveled against him, I would be fine with that compromise.

 

[Crake]

Hell we could even try rescuing him from the Dungeon in the Keep if we hear that he's been scheduled for execution. That'd probably win us some points.

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Yet another alternative solution.

Azel, I honestly feel that you have tunnelvisioned on your plan, feeling like an alternative needs to be provided on the basis to appealing towards the moral crowd, when objectively the correct solution is to put Stannis in a position of simultaneous vulnerability, and outrage at his victimization and people not believing, Stannis, the TRULY JUST Lord of Westeros, was not telling the truth when he plead his innocence to his own brother.