- Location
- florida
To be perfectly clear I'm against him having made up problems with magic.
It's not like shit isn't dangerous, especially in the hands of the untrained and irresponsible. Or worse malicious.
A Sword Without a Hilt: A Song of Ice and Fire/D&D 3.5 Crossover
- Thread starter DragonParadox
- Start date
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- Tags
- a song of ice and fire a sword without a hilt d&d 3.5 dungeons & dragons 100% high octane dragon fuel ave corvidae battle action dragon diplomacy best sister bureaucromancy delicious soul-stuff dragon dreams come true dragon ta'veren greatest uncle hubris is a coward's word in defiance of gods and men mammon's folly mutually assured mage's disjunction qm murderhobo top tier coatl
It's not like shit isn't dangerous, especially in the hands of the untrained and irresponsible. Or worse malicious.
- Location
- United States
[X] Azel
- Location
- Argentina
How about we compare this temporary magical augmentation to temporal plastic surgery? Yes, it is more radical than a dress or perfume. But even us, which regularly augment ourselves with more bonuses than the whole die, aren't able to outright mind control people with only words.
- Location
- ?????????
Magic is like a gun. You give to an asshole and he will abuse it. But if you start decrying all mages for the folly of the few then all it is asking for is a kick to the curb for me. He can be wary but he better not cause civil unrest is all I am saying. We have enough on our plate as it is without religious unrest
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- Location
- ?????????
[X] Azel
- Location
- Germany
The core of the issue is that there is no way to legislate on the matter of using magic to enhance your looks, give you knowledge boosts or similar. For one, trying to outlaw a fair chunk of magic items and spells is ridiculous. Then there is the problem of evidence, as short term buffs like Divine Insight leave none behind, but now people could try to wriggle out of agreements by claiming someone used it.
What matters is intent. Trying to run a con or fraud is a crime regardless of the tools used, magic just offers a few very good ones.
The bride made a bargain with Fey, meaning that things like love-potions, compulsions or other, more invasive measures, were definitely within her ability to obtain. She however opted for a Charisma buff. In Dubio Pro Reo. Therefore, we must assume her intent was not malicious, just that she used that bargain to gain an edge when trying to court him.
What matters is intent. Trying to run a con or fraud is a crime regardless of the tools used, magic just offers a few very good ones.
The bride made a bargain with Fey, meaning that things like love-potions, compulsions or other, more invasive measures, were definitely within her ability to obtain. She however opted for a Charisma buff. In Dubio Pro Reo. Therefore, we must assume her intent was not malicious, just that she used that bargain to gain an edge when trying to court him.
[X] Side with the lady, the law must be upheld not only for principle but because the decision will further reassure the remaining aristocracy of the Three Daughters
[X] Find in favor of lady Nesora, she was legally wed and therefore the arrangement can only be settled with divorce.
As for the Seven, I would like to remind everyone that we sided with the old gods a long time ago and that this alliance has served us well, Indeed they are one of our steadiest and most useful allies. The seven on the other hand have actually attacked us and their written words condemn us and the use of magic.
I have Nothing against the septon. Or against most of the seven's teachings. But I Don't think it's good politics to renounce our current position.
[X] Find in favor of lady Nesora, she was legally wed and therefore the arrangement can only be settled with divorce.
As for the Seven, I would like to remind everyone that we sided with the old gods a long time ago and that this alliance has served us well, Indeed they are one of our steadiest and most useful allies. The seven on the other hand have actually attacked us and their written words condemn us and the use of magic.
I have Nothing against the septon. Or against most of the seven's teachings. But I Don't think it's good politics to renounce our current position.
- Location
- Brazil
I was going to discuss it some, but as the vote is nigh on settled...
Yeah, that was idiotic, but then should we not pass anti-gold digging laws if one can do things like this?
Mechanically, it's a very decent bonus. But in-character, she was essentially using a life-like Scarlet Johanson mask.
Maybe it was legal, but then again, nothing stops us from putting a finger or ten on the scales when the divorce comes up. If it comes up.
I like this, honestly.
Yeah, that was idiotic, but then should we not pass anti-gold digging laws if one can do things like this?
Mechanically, it's a very decent bonus. But in-character, she was essentially using a life-like Scarlet Johanson mask.
Maybe it was legal, but then again, nothing stops us from putting a finger or ten on the scales when the divorce comes up. If it comes up.
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Dimensionist
Grandmaster of Apologism, Keeper of the Faith
- Location
- Bangalore, India
I think the major problem is that this magic was used to basically give her a personality rewrite in addition to augmenting her looks by a great deal. She went from shy and lacking grace and charm to someone confident and with the grace and beauty of a fey.
Like, people are stressing on the looks, when that wasn't even the big deal about it. Her personality and demeanor changed - she was literally not the person he married.
But anyway, I've already conceded on account of Viserys and co having made use of similar magic - we need something more substantial in terms of law to properly address it without effectively incriminating ourselves, and it's not happening anytime soon, so for now - in favor of the woman.
- Location
- Who knows?
[X] Azel
But I'm contemplating adding on Tomcosts caveat of the divorce earnings being based in the three day span they were actually married in. Fits for this case, but I'm not sure if I like the precedent since I can see it being abused pretty badly in "pump and dump" scenarios.
But I'm contemplating adding on Tomcosts caveat of the divorce earnings being based in the three day span they were actually married in. Fits for this case, but I'm not sure if I like the precedent since I can see it being abused pretty badly in "pump and dump" scenarios.
- Location
- France
@DragonParadox, @Duesal, here is an Archivist rework:
As for the legal cases? Let's not make self-buffing count as enchantment. That would help people like this dude (or Jarlar from Lys) but would be a serious blow to us and our Companions.
As for the legal cases? Let's not make self-buffing count as enchantment. That would help people like this dude (or Jarlar from Lys) but would be a serious blow to us and our Companions.
- Location
- Germany
Viel Glück.
And Alinor, and many of our mages.
- Location
- Brazil
There's the other side of the coin here to: that an unfavorable decision here generates great backlash against this kind of item.
No bueno, as people having this kind of thing is essential to keep them competitive against supernatural things.
We are essentially rewarding fraud, here.
So consider the wedding legal, but weight the scales on an eventual divorce.
There's a reason we don't have robots for judges, and it's to interpret the law.
No bueno, as people having this kind of thing is essential to keep them competitive against supernatural things.
We are essentially rewarding fraud, here.
So consider the wedding legal, but weight the scales on an eventual divorce.
There's a reason we don't have robots for judges, and it's to interpret the law.
- Location
- Germany
[X] First Case: The lady has clear and legal right to the inheritance and thus the estate. However, the steward made a good case for his work, so he will receive the right to buy the estate from her at the market value, as determined by the office of taxation of the Imperial Administration. If he is willing to do this, the Iron Bank will certainly be willing to offer him a loan at a reasonable rate and if not, you have many positions in the realm where a man of his skill would be greatly appreciated.
[X] Second Case: It is self-evident that Glyllo was not bespelled as he claims, thus he has no right to an annulment. The use of magic to improve the self is inherently no reprehensible act, not dissimilar form buying fancy clothing, using make-up or dying your hair. All of these things also change the way a person appears to others, yet no one would ask for an annulment for discovering a wrinkle or mole on his bride. The marriage stands and must be divorced as normal, though you would approve if they spend at least some time together before doing so, as Nesora merely tried to overcome shyness and there might yet be a chance that he will appreciate her once he knows her a bit better.
[X] Septon: "I take it then that you do not agree with the High Septon, for he has crowned the Ursuper in the name of your gods. I have heard from many Septons many different things. Some decry all magic as fiendish work, others even going so far as wishing to bring back the Faith Militant and seeking to put a High Septon on the Iron Throne to spreed the faith with the blade. Before I answer your question Septon, answer mine. What is it that you believe?"
Obviously, we never met anyone crazy enough to try to make Westeros a theocracy, but with what the Chosen of the Father is up to, we can easily throw this out and have it accepted as the truth.
[X] Second Case: It is self-evident that Glyllo was not bespelled as he claims, thus he has no right to an annulment. The use of magic to improve the self is inherently no reprehensible act, not dissimilar form buying fancy clothing, using make-up or dying your hair. All of these things also change the way a person appears to others, yet no one would ask for an annulment for discovering a wrinkle or mole on his bride. The marriage stands and must be divorced as normal, though you would approve if they spend at least some time together before doing so, as Nesora merely tried to overcome shyness and there might yet be a chance that he will appreciate her once he knows her a bit better.
[X] Septon: "I take it then that you do not agree with the High Septon, for he has crowned the Ursuper in the name of your gods. I have heard from many Septons many different things. Some decry all magic as fiendish work, others even going so far as wishing to bring back the Faith Militant and seeking to put a High Septon on the Iron Throne to spreed the faith with the blade. Before I answer your question Septon, answer mine. What is it that you believe?"
Obviously, we never met anyone crazy enough to try to make Westeros a theocracy, but with what the Chosen of the Father is up to, we can easily throw this out and have it accepted as the truth.
- Location
- France
Lya: "Are you implying I can't make a robot that can interpret the Law?"
tarrangar
Fat arctic chicken
It's more than makeup and nice dresses, but it's not anywhere near Mind control, it was in the early days of the quest, but then DP changed the rules, to not make social be meaningless due to us always winning, so as it is, it's more like temporarily gaining the benefit, of a year of classes on being charming from a great coach.
[X] Azel
- Location
- Argentina
She lied too hard. I don't think that the way in which she did so even matters. We just need to make laws against this.
Evaunit02mark1
S-s-smell the Prey, S-s-start the Hunt.
Very true.
That being said you wouldn't marry a pretty woman you literally just met if you were thinking with the head on your shoulders.
Pretty is pretty, and that's all well and good, but at some point you've got to look at yourself and say "is this a tactically sound decision to make?"
Especially when you've got money and responsibilities resting on your shoulders.
- Location
- Brazil
Not to mention the man was essentially on his deathbed: missing a hand and an eye and feverish.
That you married the one who was virtually the woman of your dreams in your deathbed... and then three days later she very literally isn't it anymore.
It's akin to her wearing a literal mask the entire time, one of those incredible holywood life-like jobs.
A person with 12-14 Charisma is drastically different from a person with 18-20 Charisma.
He married Helen of Troy, and three days later is was Mary from the cornerstore.
You know what's worth asking for an annulment over?
That you married the one who was virtually the woman of your dreams in your deathbed... and then three days later she very literally isn't it anymore.
It's akin to her wearing a literal mask the entire time, one of those incredible holywood life-like jobs.
A person with 12-14 Charisma is drastically different from a person with 18-20 Charisma.
He married Helen of Troy, and three days later is was Mary from the cornerstore.
- Location
- Brazil
A raptor with poisonous claws had eaten a hand an an eye off him.