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A Sword Without a Hilt: A Song of Ice and Fire/D&D 3.5 Crossover

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Duesal said:
Maybe, but as a returning conquerer we'll be well within our rights to dole punishments for actions or inactions during the previous war. People can talk against us all they want. They can't do a damn thing about it.
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For sure, but we can't just go out and say that(not without a loss of face).

We are in our rights to throw Mace out on his ass. Are we in our rights to shitcan all of House Tyrell for the stupidity or incompetence of one man? The Tyrells have been staunch Targaryen loyalists for centuries.
 
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Massgamer said:
@Snowfire maybe offer we would be willing to talk directly to Tyrell at some point, assuming that is what people want, and also give him Rina's books? Hell talk to Rina herself?
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I think I want to leave that until after we show him around SD, and he has a full understanding of what we're fighting against. But I'd be willing to consider it then.

A_Somebody said:
@Snowfire

-[X] "I have done as much in the Crownlands and Vale against those truly hellish foes, and in other places too in battle against other foes of mankind. Again, aid was needed, and with none offering it, I could do little less than act. As close as we can get to pointing out that the Crown has done basically nothing to secure Westeros against supernatural threats. Yes, it does matter.

Do want to include that time Cersei mocked the Crackclaw Pointers asking for help against illithids? When they asked for help against mysterious forces kidnapping people, she said they were too drunk to recognize their distant relatives wandering around or something similarly offensive. I can't remeber the exact rumor now.

I mean I get we're trying to be the bigger person here but that was particularly agregious and fuck the Lannisters. It also helps sell the difference between Robert and us. He partially refused to help since Crackclaw Point was royalist while Viserys does provide aid to the North and Vale if its needed. (also cause fuck devils. that flauxgon is next to will o wisps on my list)
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It's...almost kinda too easy to make that snipe. I'd prefer to be apolitical in this. As a King should be where it comes to the defence of their realm. We're making a point by not bringing it up, the same one that won us the grinding-teeth acceptance from Stannis that we're probably a better one than Robert.
 
Paradosi said:
For sure, but we can't just go out and say that(not without a loss of face).

We are in our rights to throw Mace out on his ass. Are we in our rights to shitcan all of House Tyrell for the stupidity of one man? The Tyrells have been staunch Targaryen loyalists for centuries.
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Well he was the head of House Tyrell. His actions reflect that of the House so we are absolutely in the right to punish the entire House for the actions of its Head.
 
Speaking of Marg she is with that adventures group in the Reach right? Got to be careful about that. She will try and get them friendly with her and her house.
 
Dracikral said:
Well he was the head of House Tyrell. His actions reflect that of the House so we are absolutely in the right to punish the entire House for the actions of its Head.
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Look at how it looks. You can be loyal to House Targaryen for centuries, but if one incompetent man manages to be born first? Well, you can fuck right off. That's... that's honestly kind of shitty.

By that logic, no one in Westeros is fit to rule. Like, which House has had a competent Head 100% of the time for all time?
 
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Hmm. Looks we want to show more mercy to the Starks and Baratheon than the people who actually helped the targaryen. Sure, they didn't give their 100% but they still defeated the armies of stormlands and kept it pacified.
 
Paradosi said:
Look at how it looks. You can be loyal to House Targaryen for centuries, but if one incompetent man manages to be born first? Well, you can fuck right off. That's... that's honestly kind of shitty.

By that logic, no one in Westeros is fit to rule. Like, which House has had a competent Head 100% of the time for all time?
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You're missing the point. The Tyrells can arguably be blamed at least in part of the success of Robert's Rebellion. That's...not something that gets forgiving easily in feudal politics.
 
Paradosi said:
Look at how it looks. You can be loyal to House Targaryen for centuries, but if one incompetent man manages to be born first? Well, you can fuck right off. That's... that's honestly kind of shitty.

By that logic, no one is fit to rule. Like, which House has had a competent Head 100% of the time for all time?
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I see where you are coming from, though you have to kinda take into account the circumstances of the time. The Targaryens were in the midst of a uprising and needed all the help they could get putting down the Baratheon Rebellion. Meanwhile the Tyrells decide under Mace to just wait in the Stormlands for almost a year, throwing feasts instead of further going to help out the Targaryen hosts. I understand that an incompetent Head is excusable most of the time, but when his loyalty mattered most he just waited out the war.
 
Paradosi said:
Look at how it looks. You can be loyal to House Targaryen for centuries, but if one incompetent man manages to be born first? Well, you can fuck right off. That's... that's honestly kind of shitty.

By that logic, no one is fit to rule. Like, which House has had a competent Head 100% of the time for all time?
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You're completely ignoring the scale here. This wasn't mere incompetence, this was incompetence that dramatically aided the fall of our entire dynasty.

So yes. The incompetence of one man is enough to see the punishment of the entire house.
 
Snowfire said:
You're missing the point. The Tyrells can arguably be blamed at least in part of the success of Robert's Rebellion. That's...not something that gets forgiving easily in feudal politics.
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I'm not saying it does either, but that's not the point I am addressing.

We'd be forgiving the Starks and the Baratheons... only to turn around and shitcan House Tyrell? That's... wow, now that I say it, that just looks fucking awful. We forgive our enemies only to shitcan our loyalists?

That legit makes us look awful.
 
DkArthas said:
Hmm. Looks we want to show more mercy to the Starks and Baratheon than the people who actually helped the targaryen. Sure, they didn't give their 100% but they still defeated the armies of stormlands and kept it pacified.
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More then will to talk to the loyal and the houses that did stuff in the rebellion. Tarly beat Robert not Mace.
 
Dracikral said:
I see where you are coming from, though you have to kinda take into account the circumstances of the time. The Targaryens were in the midst of a uprising and needed all the help they could get putting down the Baratheon Rebellion. Meanwhile the Tyrells decide under Mace to just wait in the Stormlands for almost a year, throwing feasts instead of further going to help out the Targaryen hosts. I understand that an incompetent Head is excusable most of the time, but when his loyalty mattered most he just waited out the war.
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Duesal said:
You're completely ignoring the scale here. This wasn't mere incompetence, this was incompetence that dramatically aided the fall of our entire dynasty.

So yes. The incompetence of one man is enough to see the punishment of the entire house.
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That is reason to remove Mace. I don't see how we can use that as justification that all of House Tyrell needs to go.

Seriously, we'd be giving ammunition to people for no real reason. Aerys and Rhaegar are more responsible for the fall of the Targaryens than Mace could ever be.
 
Paradosi said:
I'm not saying it does either, but that's not the point I am addressing.

We'd be forgiving the Starks and the Baratheons... only to turn around and shitcan House Tyrell? That's... wow, now that I say it, that just looks fucking awful. We forgive our enemies only to shitcan our loyalists?

That legit makes us look awful.
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The Starks had valid reason to rebel if any did. The Baratheons, I simply don't know.

More importantly though, how we deal with the Tyrells isn't set in stone at all. if it turns out that one of their younger scions is actually intelligent and sensible, then just forcing Mace to step down and be replaced would be enough for me. We're probably redrawing the borders of the Kingdoms regardless, though.
 
It's quite likely that Storm's end wasn't the only castle they besieged, they were likely laying seige to most of the traitor houses in stormlands.
 
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Snowfire said:
The Starks had valid reason to rebel if any did. The Baratheons, I simply don't know.

More importantly though, how we deal with the Tyrells isn't set in stone at all. if it turns out that one of their younger scions is actually intelligent and sensible, then just forcing Mace to step down and be replaced would be enough for me. We're probably redrawing the borders of the Kingdoms regardless, though.
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I'm not against redrawing the borders. That's just one small change in the bonanza of changes that we're planning to bring to Westeros.

What I don't want is for us to seem like a raging hypocrite for no real benefit. Willas should not be blamed for Mace, just like Viserys should not be blamed for Aerys.
 
Paradosi said:
I'm not against redrawing the borders. That's just one small change in the bonanza of changes that we're planning to bring to Westeros.

What I don't want is for us to seem like a raging hypocrite for no real benefit. Willas should not be blamed for Mace, just like Viserys should not be blamed for Aerys.
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I think you may have jumped to conclusions. What do you think we meant by "removing" the Tyrells? They're just not keeping Lord Paramountship, and they'll have land taken away from them. They'll mostly be unharmed.
 
TotallyNotEvil said:
If you are interested in the opinions of other players, I say it depends on how the major houses behave towards us.

Could just give the LPship to Tarly, could create the Cocklands, or some other split favoring the biggest houses who back us.
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Look, I know about as much about post-reconquest plans as anyone. It's all up in the air until we're making the choices.
 
Duesal said:
I think you may have jumped to conclusions. What do you think we meant by "removing" the Tyrells? They're just not keeping Lord Paramountship, and they'll have land taken away from them. They'll mostly be unharmed.
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I'm honestly not sure, that's why I'd asked what our plans are. All I've seen is a whole lotta hate against House Tyrell.

Like, I know Mace is a cockwaffle of immense proportions, but I actually like Willas.
 
Paradosi said:
Mace is a cockwaffle of immense proportions
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Oh my kingdom for the ability to make one more tag xD
Adhoc vote count started by Snowfire on Dec 25, 2018 at 2:09 PM, finished with 185 posts and 21 votes.
  • [X] Death in Winter
    -[X] "Magic has awakened everywhere, my lord. The Fey, while not harmless by any measure, do not seek the death of all that breathes. There are creatures beyond the wall that do, and even now they prepare for the coming of Winter." Building from the same place that he understands, connecting the Fae to the Others in ideal.
    -[X] "I do not speak of tales in this, I speak of the reasons for which the Wall was built and the Night Watch founded. I have fought those creatures in the North, creatures of undeath and corrupted Fae magic. Without my presence, White Harbour might well be a ruin. Back ourselves up, with connection to Whiteharbour so that he can check if wants to.
    -[X] "This is not a threat that can be parlayed with, only to be fought by every living being that wishes to survive on this world. If you do not believe me," this is not a judging statement, simply advice, "ask Dusk-Dancer of the Long Night and those who came from the North to bring it down upon the world." More foundational work.
    -[X] "So as any who cares for the peoples of Westeros, I have acted to secure them from what I see as the most lethal of all threats rising to strike them down. To do that, I must support the Night's Watch, and there are limits to what I can do in that without at least the acceptance of Lord Stark. But aid was needed, aid that I could not see coming from any other place, and so it was given." Our agreement with Lord Stark allows us to support the Watch, which is part of his domain. Nothing more.
    -[X] "I have done as much in the Crownlands and Vale against those truly hellish foes, and in other places too in battle against other foes of mankind. Again, aid was needed, and with none offering it, I could do little less than act. As close as we can get to pointing out that the Crown has done basically nothing to secure Westeros against supernatural threats. Yes, it does matter.
    -[X] "The Reach has needed my attention least so far, both because your most local supernatural entities are rarely accommodating of guests seeking to take what they see as theirs. And you have your own heroes too, in the Green Knight and those who protect Oldtown." This is phrased as a compliment, but there's an edge to it. The Fae might have helped keep the Reach safe, but they never give anything freely.
    -[X] "I'm not trying to reward people right now. I'm trying to ensure that the Seven Kingdoms can continue to exist."
    -[X] "If you wish, my Lord, I could show you proof of this. My realm is but a heartbeat away if you would trust my word to keep to responsibilities of a host as you have done for myself, and there is much there that could prove my words more than any oath might." Get him to come see what we've created and why. If he asks for our word of safe passage, we will give it.
    [X] The Fey offered you your son. The old gods offered me my mother. Others things have happened since that has cemented my original bargain with the old gods but in the beginning it was simple they gave me back my mother.
    [X] Sit him down, ironically pour him a stiff drink, and explain the Ice Zombie apocalypse. Get him a copy of Rina's book. You are diplomancing the North because it's hily beneficial that the North be intact for the Long Night.
    -[X] We have not forgotten that the Reach answered the call to arms. We are merely disappointed that the ones who Rose highest under the dragon banner chose to wield their loyal bannermen as they did.
    --[X] Everyone is inherently failable. Genuinely misinterpreting one's duty can happen, and is forgivable. Willfully doing so, however, is treason. We are still pondering if the Tyrell's undecisiviness was genuine failure or willfull treason, if he catches our drift. It's not as if we've hidden where one might find us to present allegiance and explain themselves, either.
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I'm honestly kind of sad that Willas got cut from the show, as he's like one of the few genuinely good people in ASoIaF. He's also wise, learned and actually knows what nobility means.
 
Paradosi said:
I'm honestly not sure, that's why I'd asked what our plans are. All I've seen is a whole lotta hate against House Tyrell.

Like, I know Mace is a cockwaffle of immense proportions, but I actually like Willas.
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Yeah, and if Willas works his way up in the Imperium he'll be rewarded for it, we'll have to see.

But as it stands, it makes no sense to trust House Tyrell in their continued position as Lord Paramounts of the Reach. They have shown themselves to be untrustworthy, and worse, not cautious at all when dealing with the fey. It is insanity to allow that house to remain in power considering the mess that Mace has gotten them into with the deal to get the crown.

They'll be fine at the end of it, they just won't be Lord Paramounts and they'll have quite a bit less land. Us having disdain for them doesn't mean they're going to be wiped out.
 
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