Single individuals hoarding vast amounts of capital is precisely the problem. They do harm the economy that way, can outright crash it by releasing their capital in an uncontrollable fashion and can amass vast amounts of power by using it strategically.

None of these things are desirable for us.

We need property taxes, not income taxes or we are still locked in an infinite wealth acquisition spiral.
Just allow it only in the form of gold coins, that are legally seen as collectors items only, you are not allowed to use them as currency, you are only allowed to collect them, because you like the shiny look of them, the only organisation that may sell or buy them is the state, meaning you may buy them from the state, and you may sell them back if you need cash, but there's a steep tax on selling them back, that get steeper the more you sell.

Because a property tax on hoards is a recipe for deserting dragons, unless you give them something precious to hoard that's exempt.
 
I originally wanted to support this, but now I'm against it. We want that part of the state to fail in the long run, so leave it be for now so that we can get rid of it later.

Single individuals hoarding vast amounts of capital is precisely the problem. They do harm the economy that way, can outright crash it by releasing their capital in an uncontrollable fashion and can amass vast amounts of power by using it strategically.

None of these things are desirable for us.

We need properllty taxes, not income taxes or we are still locked in an infinite wealth acquisition spiral.
I agree with "we need progressive property taxes".

I'm against deliberately sabotaging feudalism like that.
I would prefer to simply keep weakening it by strengthening other institutions (mages, merchants, the army, the King...) for now.
 
Just allow it only in the form of gold coins, that are legally seen as collectors items only, you are not allowed to use them as currency, you are only allowed to collect them, because you like the shiny look of them, the only organisation that may sell or buy them is the state, meaning you may buy them from the state, and you may sell them back if you need cash, but there's a steep tax on selling them back, that get steeper the more you sell.

Because a property tax on hoards is a recipe for deserting dragons, unless you give them something precious to hoard that's exempt.
Dragons aren't magpies. This is just stupid.
They want to be rich, not to be shiny. Otherwise they would use illusions for their hoards.
 
Just allow it only in the form of gold coins, that are legally seen as collectors items only, you are not allowed to use them as currency, you are only allowed to collect them, because you like the shiny look of them, the only organisation that may sell or buy them is the state, meaning you may buy them from the state, and you may sell them back if you need cash, but there's a steep tax on selling them back, that get steeper the more you sell.
That makes no sense. Our interactions with Relath and Amrelath have clearly shown that they are not physically addicted to gold. They are greedy bastard who want to be rich.

And hey, they can. They just can't be "owning half a continent"-rich.
 
Just allow it only in the form of gold coins, that are legally seen as collectors items only, you are not allowed to use them as currency, you are only allowed to collect them, because you like the shiny look of them, the only organisation that may sell or buy them is the state, meaning you may buy them from the state, and you may sell them back if you need cash, but there's a steep tax on selling them back, that get steeper the more you sell.

You have to remember dragons are super-humanly intelligent. They would see right though that, they would know the treasure isn't treasure. You have a better bet of imposing the tax and then explaining it. Any dragon who swears to you is likely to be engaged enough with mortal society that they would not fancy social collapse.
 
I just noticed something that really make reincarnation much easier doable, a 10 HD druid creature can cast 4th level spells, so being able to produce reincarnators, only require us to upgrade the Fungus Forge, to be able to make such a Druid creature.

It's no big problem even if such a creature cost a 100k IM to make, charging 100 IM per reincarnate, mean it would earn 36500 IM a year, meaning it would only take 3 years for it to pay for its creation, so if we manage to be able to create 10 HD Druid creatures, we can mass produce reincarnators.
That makes no sense. Our interactions with Relath and Amrelath have clearly shown that they are not physically addicted to gold. They are greedy bastard who want to be rich.

And hey, they can. They just can't be "owning half a continent"-rich.
It's half of each, dragons want to be rich, which involve having spendable assets, but they also want a hoard, which can include things they never can spend or even want to, they just wont be satisfied having only that in their hoard.
You have to remember dragons are super-humanly intelligent. They would see right though that, they would know the treasure isn't treasure. You have a better bet of imposing the tax and then explaining it. Any dragon who swears to you is likely to be engaged enough with mortal society that they would not fancy social collapse.
It's money, it's just money that there's a cap on spending, we could make it so you could exchange up to 50k of it a year without taxes, but if you want to spend more of it than that, then they have to pay the tax.

And the point of it would be that it was indeed treasure, it was just treasure it's illegal to directly spend, it cost the standard price of gold, you just can't spend it at will, it's essentially made for hoarding, because you paid for it, the government paid for buying the gold to make it, it's just supposed to be taken out of circulation.

But no matter what it is treasure, I did note that they could sell it back to the government, it was just that the more they sold back, the higher tax they would have to pay, meaning the coins do have worth, they are just something you have to spend slowly, to avoid diminishing return.

Basically the coins are a little like a pension fond, you don't have to pay tax on it, but you can't withdraw it all at once, you can withdraw some from it at any time you want, but anything you withdraw will be added to your yearly earnings, and so will heighten your tax.
 
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Not really worth it.

With armor comes a chance of our magic failing in combat. That's why arcane casters mainly wear robes instead of armor.

Nope, not with Mithril armour an twilight enchantment. Totally viable to do.

Edit: I'm thinking of non-viserys party members when I say this btw
 
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I just noticed something that really make reincarnation much easier doable, a 10 HD druid creature can cast 4th level spells, so being able to produce reincarnators, only require us to upgrade the Fungus Forge, to be able to make such a Druid creature.
Okay, that is a valid method to make everyone benefit from Reincarnation. They could charge [Material costs of the spell] + 5 IM and make it reasonably affordable, and eventually recoup their creation costs.
This is a method that could work.

But it would be a massive headache for us as a ruler, so we won't be doing it.
 
Okay, that is a valid method to make everyone benefit from Reincarnation. They could charge [Material costs of the spell] + 5 IM and make it reasonably affordable, and eventually recoup their creation costs.
This is a method that could work.

But it would be a massive headache for us as a ruler, so we won't be doing it.
I don't see it as a massive headache, I see it as something we kind of need, we have literally infinite enemies, we are never going to run out of space to colonize, as the planes are infinite, making our population immortal, makes standing against such Planar superpowers as Baator much more viable, and even the commoners matter, if for no other reason than their prayers empowering the gods.

Not that I think we will need to colonize the planes anytime soon, Planetos has a lot of empty land, and once we acquire Underdark plants, we can create great underground farms, meaning we can just dig new caves to farm in.

But it's not something we should decide yet, whether our society can take everyone being immortal or not, is something we should research first, and only once we have the answer, should we introduce reincarnators, or decide to not do so.
 
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It's money, it's just money that there's a cap on spending, we could make it so you could exchange up to 50k of it a year without taxes, but if you want to spend more of it than that, then they have to pay the tax.

And the point of it would be that it was indeed treasure, it was just treasure it's illegal to directly spend, it cost the standard price of gold, you just can't spend it at will, it's essentially made for hoarding, because you paid for it, the government paid for buying the gold to make it, it's just supposed to be taken out of circulation.

But no matter what it is treasure, I did note that they could sell it back to the government, it was just that the more they sold back, the higher tax they would have to pay, meaning the coins do have worth, they are just something you have to spend slowly, to avoid diminishing return.

Basically the coins are a little like a pension fond, you don't have to pay tax on it, but you can't withdraw it all at once, you can withdraw some from it at any time you want, but anything you withdraw will be added to your yearly earnings, and so will heighten your tax.

It is indeed money, but it's money that's only worth a fraction of what it seems. It would be like a dragon making his hoard out of copper coins, because he can get more of them Actually I just had an idea of how you can appeal to draconic greed and desire for dominion in a way that does not hoard capital, and having rolled wisdom for all your companions with a decent knowledge of dragons Malarys came up with it IC:

The ability to choose charity over tax, they would be giving money away, so the opposite of accumulating wealth, but they would still get to decide who they are giving it too which will satisfy their egos and make mortals fawn over them as most dragons desire.
 
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@tarrangar, you are still failing to convince me why we would want to make racist laws that pander to dragons in the first place.

We want to establish a socio-economic system that works for everyone, not indulge in anyone's particular proclivities.

You are also not convincing me why we would even need to pander to them, as I'm seeing no particular reason for why they should be so utterly opposed to progressive tax systems that still leave them with a tidy sum of money to their name if they are clever about it.
 
It is indeed money, but it's money that's only worth a fraction of what it seems. It would be like a dragon making his hoard out of copper coins, because he can get more of them Actually I just had an idea of how you can appeal to draconic greed and desire for dominion in a way that does not hoard capital, and having rolled wisdom for all your companions with a decent knowledge of dragons Malarys came up with it IC:

The ability to choose charity over tax, they would be giving money away, so the opposite of accumulating wealth, but they would still get to decide who their are giving it too which will satisfy their egos and make mortals fawn over them as most dragons desire.
Fuck no.

That's the description of every second tax-loophole in existence.
 
It is indeed money, but it's money that's only worth a fraction of what it seems. It would be like a dragon making his hoard out of copper coins, because he can get more of them Actually I just had an idea of how you can appeal to draconic greed and desire for dominion in a way that does not hoard capital, and having rolled wisdom for all your companions with a decent knowledge of dragons Malarys came up with it IC:

The ability to choose charity over tax, they would be giving money away, so the opposite of accumulating wealth, but they would still get to decide who their are giving it too which will satisfy their egos and make mortals fawn over them as most dragons desire.
Not really, it's money you can only spend slowly if you want the full value, you can get 100% of what you spent on it back, that just involve spending it over many years.
 
As I said last night, there is more to finding available casters willing to spend their time Reincarnating people.

The spell uses 200 IM worth of rare oils and unguents. You can't just throw money at that and have it appear. Such components are finite in nature, with a limited supply available at any given time.

We can control the Reincarnation market simply by controlling the components necessary to cast the spell. That won't stop the super wealthy, but it drastically cuts down on the hassle we could have to deal with if much of the populace chooses to be Reincarnated.
 
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What, by donating to non-profits that they own?

I was under the understanding that tax loopholes are utilized to avoid paying more, meaning they only donate the amount requisite to avoid the increase?

Am I misunderstanding?
 
As I said last night, there is more to finding available casters willing to spend their time Reincarnating people.

The spell uses 200 IM worth of rare oils and unguents. You can't just throw money at that and have it appear. Such components are finite in nature, with a limited supply available at any given time.

We can control the Reincarnation market simply by controlling the components necessary to cast the spell. That won't stop the super wealthy, but it drastically cuts down on the hassle alwe could have to deal with if much of the populace chooses to be Reincarnated.
DP hasn't made it seems as if those oils are that rare, I get the feeling any magical oils in the right amount do for it, just like any type of diamond worth 1000 IM work for raise dead.
 
So having given it a bit more thought the charity idea is still exploitable to gain power and influence which is wealth by another name so it's a no starter.

Anyway, vote closed, let's get to that loot.
Adhoc vote count started by DragonParadox on Nov 29, 2018 at 10:14 AM, finished with 250175 posts and 10 votes.

  • [X] Give her the pick between the options.
    -[X] Skane, where her powers would be greatly appreciated and used against a foe that should not trouble her conscience.
    -[X] The Xorn outpost, which would be more similar to her native home in locale then the Deep.
    -[X] Naath, where she could help to protect the people from the wildlife and aid Wyllas efforts to improve their homeland.
    -[X] This must not be a final choice. Her help would certainly be appreciated in all those places and she could also split her time between them, if she would like.
 
Nope, not with Mithril armour an twilight enchantment. Totally viable to do.
Sure, but it's an either or. Either you get your awesome Sorcerer King robes, or you get armor that you have to enchant just so it doesn't mess with your spells. You can't get both. There are only so many item slots, and I know which item I prefer.
 
Nope, not with Mithril armour an twilight enchantment. Totally viable to do.

Edit: I'm thinking of non-viserys party members when I say this btw
Generally just not worth the effort in most cases. Even with Mithral and the Twilight enchantment, you can only reduce ASF by so much. You're stuck using light armor, which only matches a Mage Armor spell. The Enhancement bonus can push it high, of course, but that gets expensive very quickly, while also preventing you from wearing a robe, which can have more useful effects.
DP hasn't made it seems as if those oils are that rare, I get the feeling any magical oils in the right amount do for it, just like any type of diamond worth 1000 IM work for raise dead.
They're not hard to get ahold of now, because we're the only Reincarnation game in town, and we've used them sporadically. If Reincarnation was to become more common, however, we would certainly run into a supply issue. That just makes it easier for us to regulate the process through controlling the supply of reagents.
 
Sure, but it's an either or. Either you get your awesome Sorcerer King robes, or you get armor that you have to enchant just so it doesn't mess with your spells. You can't get both. There are only so many item slots, and I know which item I prefer.

Oh yeah, agree (though those robes are somewhat niche), I'm not talking about Viserys though, but about other party members. Mithril twilight armour is an amazing base to work from for casters with arcane spell failure, I would hate for there to grow an unconsious thread consensus that armour is not good for mages. Thought I have faith TNE and Goldfish would offer a fair evaluation on the costs/benefit of glammered armour Vs some other option.

But I really wanna get some Mithril over Lya and Maelor.

Edit: ninja'd by the ABOMINATION! ah, well if it doesn't have good effect to cost raito, fair enough.
@DragonParadox do the archons know rituals that can cheply change a basic PfG item into a PfE, (relative to the cost of making one that is). I can't remember what all we traded, or if this ritual effect was covered by their consecration knowledge. (I... think we bought that?) :oops:
 
That's not what I'm doing. First, there is no steam in the system at all until the canmom is fired. Second, the pressure is built up in the cannon tank. That's why it's sealed and only connected to the heat distribution piping by a solid heat exchanger. Which, according to my math, is capable of building up the necessary heat and pressure in less then 9 seconds, which is why we use two tanks that can be cycled in between.

The water supply isn't an issue either, since you can directly get that easily from storage tanks in this time.
Ah, that's alright then. I understood it as you somehow dumping superheated steam on a tank of water to make flashboil it, which was just too weird.

I think we'd need to attach a Decanter to reliably refill it, tho. A storage tank of any size for any number of cannons will be gigantic, and an issue all on its own, wherever the cannons are stored.

And like I said, I'm not confident in this thing acting as anything other than artillery. A moving target will be more or less impossible to track at close range.
 
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As a side note water to steam causes the volume to increase over a thousand fold. This is why there's all those PSAs about never ever putting food with frozen water on it into hot oil
 
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