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A Sword Without a Hilt: A Song of Ice and Fire/D&D 3.5 Crossover

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Prince Sheo said:
Is it worth it though? we can just teleport to dragonstone and get us another egg, all I'm saying is that the first one be givento Viserys, not that the others shouldn't get any for themselves.
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I'm questioning the worth of Viserys getting a dragon at all, as I consider it to be pointless vanity that doesn't really do anything.

Sure, we can spend time looking for other dragon eggs while Viserys gets the "first" one, or we could spend that time doing literally anything else.
So yeah, I don't see the worth in what seems like a worthless vanity project when we have so many other things to do.

Prince Sheo said:
I've been telling you this whole time that combat isn't even the issue here, we want a stable realm and the prestige of being the first dragon rider in generations will help stabilize the realm
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I say the prestige from being a Dragon Rider is worthless compared to being a Targaryen.
People who hate us won't suddenly think we are deserving of kingship because we ride in on a dragon.
 
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Prince Sheo said:
Is it worth it though? we can just teleport to dragonstone and get us another egg, all I'm saying is that the first one be givento Viserys, not that the others shouldn't get any for themselves.
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Personally I believe Viserys don't need a dragon at all, unless having a dragon would give him extra spells or class features, I will vote for Viserys never becoming a dragon rider, being a dragon is so much better, than just riding a lesser dragon, and the dragon is more useful with a subordinate, who can use it to deal with lower CR threats.
 
Deliste said:
I'm genuinely confused why people keep counter arguing with "we have the power" when it is explicitly not the topic of conversation.
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Because the major justification for giving Viserys the first Valyrian Dragon is 'it will appease Westerosi nobles'.
The counter argument you are getting is essentially 'and why should we care about that, exactly?'

Personally I like the idea if Viserys explicitly not having a dragon, because it is a great way of stating that Viserys himself is where the power lies. I would argue that taking the first dragon for ourselves when we are already going to be a better dragon in every way, is not only stupidly wasteful, is shows weakness.
 
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Raichu1972 said:
I'm questioning the worth of Viserys getting a dragon at all, as I consider it to be pointless vanity that doesn't really do anything.

Sure, we can spend time looking for other dragon eggs while Viserys gets the "first" one, or we could spend that time doing literally anything else.
So yeah, I don't see the worth in what seems like a worthless vanity project when we have so many other things to do.


I say the prestige from being a Dragon Rider is worthless compared to being a Targaryen.
People who hate us won't suddenly think we are deserving of kingship because we ride in on a dragon.
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A day or two of searching will possibly save use a LOT more time that we will be spending in the future settling disputes that could've been avoided by us being the first rider

Sqweaktoy said:
Because the major justification for giving Viserys the first Valyrian Dragon is 'it will appease Westerosi nobles'.
The counter argument you are getting is essentially 'and why should we care about that, exactly?'

Personally I like the idea if Viserys explicitly not having a dragon, because it is a great way of stating that Viserys himself is where the power lies. I would argue that taking the first dragon for ourselves when we are already going to be a better dragon in every way, is not only stupidly wasteful, is shows weakness.
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Because we're going to be ruling those people? And we don't want to waste our precious time dealing with them?
 
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Prince Sheo said:
I've been telling you this whole time that combat isn't even the issue here, we want a stable realm and the prestige of being the first dragon rider in generations will help stabilize the realm
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And we don't believe there's that much prestige in it, the Targaryan's haven't had dragons for a long time, and it's just as impressive if not more so, to have a dragon rider sworn to your service.

I also want it known that we are ruling by our own power, not by the power of our mount, being a dragon rider states that we will be weakened if you kill the dragon, I want it to be known that all our power is our own, not our tamed creatures.
 
Prince Sheo said:
A day or two of searching will possibly save use a LOT more time that we will be spending in the future settling disputes that could've been avoided by us being the first rider
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How will these disputes be settled?

Please explain to me why being "The First Dragon Rider" will make nobles listen to us, make the smallfolk not rebel, make the realm stable.
In detail, if you would.
 
Prince Sheo said:
I've been telling you this whole time that combat isn't even the issue here, we want a stable realm and the prestige of being the first dragon rider in generations will help stabilize the realm
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And the prestige of being the man who brought back dragons to Westeros, the one who commands all those dragon-riders, is nothing? Like, I think you're both overestimating the importance of being a dragon rider and underestimating Viserys's personal power. We crushed nearly 1000 of the most disciplined sellswords in the world for no losses, and it barely merited a sentence or two.
 
Raichu1972 said:
I don't understand why you and others believe that a Dragon Rider will be seen as more threatening than a Dragon, especially if we show our strength beforehand.

Any fool that can be persuaded into attacking a Dragon can be persuaded into attacking a Dragon Rider, and thus Viserys having the vanity dragon doesn't actually matter.

You know, if you think I do not understand the topic of the conversation, why don't you make it explicit for me?
To make sure we are on the same page and all.
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Meeting expectations of hierarchy and eliminating any opportunities for dissent when it costs us little to do so. Perception, PR. Not actual military might.

Marriage alliance with Dorne, costs a lot, gains support that can be bought other ways, not worth meeting expectations.

Riding a Dragon when there's a Dragon available to ride and being the first one to do it, costs us a little, buys us a quieter kingdom, worth meeting expectations.

There's a population of 40 million people to be manipulated and they all have different handles, some will plot against a Dragon that wouldn't plot against a Dragon Rider, eliminate as many as possible that are available to our enemies so we don't have to waste time dealing with bullshit.

Bob the Baker can be tempted by women.

Lemmy the clerk only by gold.

Justine the librarian only cares for the plight of the innocent so must be lied to about our dark practices. You know they say the King sacrificed his own blood to become a Dragon and that's why no natural born will bond with him.

Little Timmy the wannabe adventure grew up with his grandmother telling stories of Dragonriders that fought with strength of arm and not shifty magics.

If you have a low cost way to eliminate a possibility then you should do so, Valaena will get her egg, likely on a very similar timetable. Just after Viserys.
 
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Prince Sheo said:
A day or two of searching will possibly save use a LOT more time that we will be spending in the future settling disputes that could've been avoided by us being the first rider
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Let the disputes happen, magic is back, the rules have changed. Here are the new rules:
1. I. Am. A. Dragon.
2. Pursuant to the above, your argument is Invalid.

Anyone too greedy or stupid to absorb these rules needs to be dealt with eventually anyway.
 
Sqweaktoy said:
Because the major justification for giving Viserys the first Valyrian Dragon is 'it will appease Westerosi nobles'.
The counter argument you are getting is essentially 'and why should we care about that, exactly?'

Personally I like the idea if Viserys explicitly not having a dragon, because it is a great way of stating that Viserys himself is where the power lies. I would argue that taking the first dragon for ourselves when we are already going to be a better dragon in every way, is not only stupidly wasteful, is shows weakness.
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Because we're going to be ruling those people? And we don't want to waste our precious time dealing with them?
Raichu1972 said:
How will these disputes be settled?

Please explain to me why being "The First Dragon Rider" will make nobles listen to us, make the smallfolk not rebel, make the realm stable.
In detail, if you would.
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It won't, it will just give them less excuses to annoy us and waste our time. A day or two spent searching for more eggs (something that we will be doing anyways) and getting the first hatched one will save us from some of those annoyances.
 
Deliste said:
Meeting expectations of hierarchy and eliminating any opportunities for dissent when it costs us little to do so. Perception, PR. Not actual military might.

Marriage alliance with Dorne, costs a lot, gains support that can be bought other ways, not worth meeting expectations.

Riding a Dragon when there's a Dragon available to ride and being the first one to do it, costs us a little, buys us a quieter kingdom, worth meeting expectations.

There's a population of 40 million people to be manipulated and they all have different handles, some will plot against a Dragon that wouldn't plot against a Dragon Rider, eliminate as many as possible that are available to our enemies so we don't have to waste time dealing with bullshit.

Bob the Baker can be tempted by women.

Lemmy the clerk only by gold.

Justine the librarian only cares for the plight of the innocent so must be lied to about our dark practices. You know they say the King sacrificed his own blood to become a Dragon and that's why no natural born will bond with him.

Little Timmy the wannabe adventure grew up with his grandmother telling stories of Dragonriders that fought with strength of arm and not shifty magics.

If you have a low cost way to eliminate a possibility then you should do so, Valaena will get her egg, likely on a very similar timetable. Just after Viserys.
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How does riding a Dragon eliminate opportunities for dissent?

Dragons were killed even before magic was brought back to the world, after all.
Those who desire rebellion would still try their luck, Dragon Rider or no.

At most, the Dragon would make some plotters scurry further into the dark, attempting subterfuge and poison of the Dragon, instead of challenging us out in the open where we can crush them.
 
Raichu1972 said:
How does riding a Dragon eliminate opportunities for dissent?

Dragons were killed even before magic was brought back to the world, after all.
Those who desire rebellion would still try their luck, Dragon Rider or no.

At most, the Dragon would make some plotters scurry further into the dark, attempting subterfuge and poison of the Dragon, instead of challenging us out in the open where we can crush them.
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I just explained that very thing, with several examples.

You quoted it.:confused:
 
nixter said:
For us the dragon would basically be a glorified pet and,we face the opportunity cost of not getting the meat of Valena's class up sooner since the dragons probably were meant to grow with the riders as they gain experience.
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I think people are extremely dismissive of Valyrian dragons and unjustly so. In canon, they are noted to be fire and magic made flesh. Their return precipitates the rebirth of magic. Their presence made the Warlocks of Qarth go from conjurers of cheap tricks to actual sorcerers. The Crow's Eye is more magical and traveled than anything else in all of the novels and wants dragons.

Basically anything that's noted to be magic in canon that's shown up in the quest is ridiculously magical. Weirwood trees, Dark Sister, Bloodraven, the Crow's Eye, Melissandre and the Red Priests; everything has been massively buffed in this age of magic reborn. Why do people think that Valyrian dragons won't have a hidden buff? In canon, they're reputed to make their riders stronger; Aenys was weak and sickly before he bonded his dragon. Given that the bond between rider and dragon is a real thing, I would not be surprised if there is going to be magical effects as a result of that.

I think people also need to consider that Malarys and all of his coworkers had bonded dragons. Sure, they weren't going to turn into dragons in two levels, but they were mid-level spellcasters. Compared to someone sitting there on the ground, both make you a god. There must be some reason that the Valyrians still used dragons en mass when they were made up of countless, powerful PC-level mages.
 
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Prince Sheo said:
It won't, it will just give them less excuses to annoy us and waste our time. A day or two spent searching for more eggs (something that we will be doing anyways) and getting the first hatched one will save us from some of those annoyances.
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Real talk? What it will do is precisely nothing. Any idiot looking for an excuse has plenty already and will find one regardless. Being incredibly wasteful with powerful resources and not taking advantage of the much stronger imagery of not even needing the very thing that allowed Aegon to Conquer in the first place isn't a step I wish to take for the sake of morons asking to get flambéed.
 
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TotallyNotEvil said:
@Goldfish the idea is to learn Eldritch Chain and Combust alongside Practiced Spellcaster.

Then he could get essentially free Chain Reached Combust without the actual downsides of Chain.
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That could be useful, but it's gimicky and limited. I would much rather give him the ability to use Teleport and Summon Monster V once per day. Practiced Spellcaster will be much more useful at 12th level, when he actually has some spells that would benefit more from the caster level boost.
 
Deliste said:
I just explained that very thing, with several examples.

You quoted it.:confused:
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So you want for Viserys to never show that he is a Dragon?

Because it seems as though the crux of your argument is: People would fuck with a True Dragon, but not with a Dragon Rider, so Viserys should totally get this useless dragon.
It makes no sense to me. :confused:
 
My opinion is we should totally get a dragon, to see if it boosts us to some degree or just to have a badass ride for battles that can act as a mook cleaner for those times when we're busy killing something else.

But it's not like, at the top of our to-do list. It's not in the top 5. It's somewhere in there, but the damn thing is already cluttered as all hell and new things always have a way of popping up in it. So yeah, 'get a dragon' is on the list, we'll get around to it at some point. Don't know when.
 
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I certainly don't mind going out for a day and searching through and around a volcano for a 100 loot roll.
Hehehahahahahahahahehahh!!~
Phef... No, never going to happen, don't believe it.
Will vote for going there if there's an odd free day on schedule though.

And I certainly can't see all the appeal @Prince Sheo wants us to play up to Westerosi nobles.
Sure, dragons are a symbol of power and prestige, but I think that actually having one PC that will follow our any order no questions asked, one that we can send to deal with any asshole-noble getting uppity? Much bigger show of power.

And the whole "stabilising the country with prestige of being the first dragonrider in a shit-a-ton years" won't work as we're really seen as "The_Worst_Thing_Ever" by septons and most people because of propaganda. Prestige doesn't kick in untill these factors are gone, and, well...
By then we'll have most likely finished our righteous comeback to the throne.

Can't remember if I voted, and my phone is almost out of charge so I'm not going to/can't quite check.
[X] Goldfish
 
Duesal said:
It's the volcano in Dragonstone. We could literally just teleport there and search for a day.

Wild Valyrian Dragons used to roost there and lay eggs and everything post-Doom. There has to be something for us to find.
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Definitely take Vee for that, or maybe Dany goes with Vee and See Richard and possibly a forth if we need to spend time somewhere else for whatever reason.

Pretty sure that they can look after eachother as well as Viserys can :D
 
Raichu1972 said:
So you want for Viserys to never show that he is a Dragon?

Because it seems as though the crux of your argument is: People would fuck with a True Dragon, but not with a Dragon Rider, so Viserys should totally get this useless dragon.
It makes no sense to me. :confused:
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People fear the unknown more than anything and fear leads to anger, being seen as a dragon rider foremost rather than a True dragon will generate less hate.
 
You guys and your silly argument... There's already a "dragonrider", and as soon as Rhaella gets resurrected there will be another. Although unlike Lya's, her "dragon" was weak and mad even when it was alive.

Speaking of Lya and Rhaella, it will be interesting to see how they interact. She's probably not too thrilled that we picked up a bastard orphan Braavosi witch who trained to be a priestess of a heathen god...
 
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