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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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[X] Plan Pickle Requests mk IV, but ask the Jades how to pull power from waystones
-[X] Ambers: The secret behind Flock of Doom
-[X] Lights: KAU partnership with the Light Order's Ancient Library
-[X] Golds: A We-silk robe enchanted for combat defense
-[X] Jades: How do you pull power from waystones? (So I can see about making it work for ulgu, and maybe others)
-[X] Celestials: Bankroll for upcoming magical curiosities shopping trip in Lothern
-[X] Greys: Operatives to expand the reach of the EIC intel network
-[X] Amethysts: Information on what Hexensohn was doing under Drakenhof and why
-[X] Brights: Gyrocarriage enchanted with Inextinguishable Flame

[X] Plan Not Pickle Requests Variant with Apparitions
[X] Save the boon until we choose our next project
[X] Break College Favor/ Tenure

[X] Plan Pickle Requests mk IV
 
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Rafin said:
I was all for finally going on the Elfcation, but the idea that it would lead to a swift end of the Waystone Project afterwards, maybe even to a direct major vote on what we do next makes me dread it. Dread it enough to reconsider not voting for it.

I have a whole list of things I still want to do regarding the Waystone Project, not all of it one AP affairs. And I know I'm not the only one.
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Is there any reason you think this might be the case? I don't quite see how going on the Elfcation correlates with a "swift end of the Waystone Project." Has Boney mentioned something on the matter that I've missed?
 
Do we not know how to pull power from Waystones? We've been working with them for years.

NuclearConsensus said:
Is there any reason you think this might be the case? I don't quite see how going on the Elfcation correlates with a "swift end of the Waystone Project." Has Boney mentioned something on the matter that I've missed?
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Well no, he did not, and i don't share Rafin's worries as such, but Waystone project is currently in nebulous area of "actually pretty finished unless you decide to shoot for the stars", so a lenghty expedition to fuck around and then go fuck off from our old job would be roughly in the Karak Dum and our job as a Loremaster in terms of wrapping arc up.

It would still be up to a vote, but there is probably argument that could be made by some and then leveraged into saying "yeah we did enough" in the post expedition mood.
 
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pucflek said:
Do we not know how to pull power from Waystones? We've been working with them for years.
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It's a Jade technique, and one that other colleges currently don't really have a use for.
DragonParadox said:
As far as Mathilde knows would any of the orders have a use for the ability to pull their Wind out of Waystones and use them like the Jades do? I recall you saying our elf Waystone books provide the foundation for that, so it is something we could do, but that would be kind of pointless if no one beside the Jades wants it for anything other than bragging rights.
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Boney said:
1. For most purposes, there's enough ambient Winds around to just do whatever a Wizard wants to do. For the few exceptions, they just build something specific for that purpose. The Jades are the only ones with endlessly-scalable peacetime demands and the techniques to fulfill them. It is a bit chicken-and-egg - why develop techniques for using massive amounts of magic if you don't have access to it? why seek access to massive amounts of magic if you don't have techniques to use it?
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Basically, it's not much use to non-Jades because a Jade can always take excess Ghyran and dump it into increasing crop yields. This is basically exactly what Athel Yenlui does on a large scale, in fact! But other Colleges don't have uses for arbitrarily more winds. Could they develop some? Sure, but after a couple of minutes of thinking, there isn't obvious low hanging fruit for other Winds.
 
picklepikkl said:
Basically, it's not much use to non-Jades because a Jade can always take excess Ghyran and dump it into increasing crop yields. This is basically exactly what Athel Yenlui does on a large scale, in fact! But other Colleges don't have uses for arbitrarily more winds. Could they develop some? Sure, but after a couple of minutes of thinking, there isn't obvious low hanging fruit for other Winds.
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When this was discussed before, I think the best option that came up was using Light magic to prevent disease.
 
picklepikkl said:
I'm not totally clear on what you're finding confusing. For instance, I don't actually think all the Runesmith Clans knew that energy was being spent to K-a-K. Or, rather, I think that before the Time of Woes, the leadership of each hold's Runesmith Clan knew, but there's no reason to think the knowledge was more widely spread than that. It would make perfect sense that this knowledge, like knowledge of many runes, was lost in the chaotic every-Hold-for-itself times if leadership got ganked without passing it on. Even if Thorek knew before we told him (and I couldn't find text suggesting that he did, where did you see that?) that's no guarantee that other Runesmith Clans preserved that understanding -- Karak Azul was so isolated it never learned how to make gunpowder, for example, so we know it's an odd duck in other respects.

Basically: can you distill your confusion and use quotes from the quest text to highlight the potential issues?
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There are several things contributing to it. For one, Boney has mentioned that the runes that comprise the Waystone Network weren't lost. Not the Karak-Waystone runes, but the Mountain runes. There's giant runes carved on mountains spread out in every direction from Karaz-a-Karak going out for thousands of miles. These are runesmiths we're talking about here. You can't convince them to stop wondering because they don't know how runes work. Every runesmith with aspirations to reverse-engineer is expected to know what every rune still known to the Karaz Ankor looks like. The Mountain-Runes are included in that.

It's a good point about Karak Azul remembering more, but Barak Varr retained knowledge of it. They are the ones who told Thorek that an elven nexus was supposed to be put there, connected to their nexus. They also told him about the Forest of Gloom nexus. The Runesmith clans of the Vaults, who are spread out and a lot more vulnerable than the Old Holds, told Thorek about the nexuses in the Vaults. It's incredibly difficult to believe that the New Holds remembered about their waystones when everyone else except Azul, Dum, and Karaz-a-Karak forgot. How did Barak Varr remember it had an elven nexus but forget about the dwarven nexus? If Barak Varr didn't forget, why would Zhufbar have forgot? Or Kadrin?Also the instant petrification chambers are pretty obvious.

That the energy fed Karaz-a-Karak was public knowledge during the Golden Age. It had to be. How do you think they justified carving Mountain-Runes all the way a thousand miles south to Karag Orrud? All the way near Nehekhara? That's not a secret project limited to a handful of people. That's a civilizational-scale effort. Combined with the fact that wonders of the Ancestor Gods would have been shutting down since the ambient magic was too low, only to come back on as the KAWN was built? It's impossible for it to have been hidden.

Boney said:
He scours the world for runes that are lost, ones that no living Dwarves have knowledge of or claim to. Runes that make up the Karaz Ankor's Waystone network aren't lost, and would be under the authority of Karaz-a-Karak.
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Boney said:
This isn't a one-off thing that exists only here that might have been forgotten. It's the basic component of the Dwarven Waystone network. Chains of them extend in pretty much every direction from Karaz-a-Karak.
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Alratan said:
When this was discussed before, I think the best option that came up was using Light magic to prevent disease.
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I'm not convinced that this is arbitrarily scalable in the way that Ghyran-usage is -- you can always dump more Ghyran in the soil, it's good for it, but if you keep dumping Hysh into human beings that seems like an issue. Maybe just dumping into the air and water is enough? But it's definitely the best idea I've heard.

Actually, quick check: Boney, when the Light College holds the Supreme Patriarchate, what happens to disease rates in Altdorf? Is this a known effect, a known non-effect, or a region of uncertainty?
 
[X] Outsourcing Apparition hunting and storage to provide us with captured Apparitions for spell creation on request
[X] Plan Pickle Requests mk IV
[X] Plan Not Pickle Requests Variant with Apparitions
[X] Plan: The Prismatic Wanderer
[X] Plan Tower of Doom! and Research!
 
picklepikkl said:
I'm not convinced that this is arbitrarily scalable in the way that Ghyran-usage is -- you can always dump more Ghyran in the soil, it's good for it, but if you keep dumping Hysh into human beings that seems like an issue. Maybe just dumping into the air and water is enough?
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The Lumimancers are putting Hysh in the water so that they can track you by Hysh build up in your teeth via Skyship borne Seviroscopes.
 
pucflek said:
Well no, he did not, and i don't share Rafin's worries as such, but Waystone project is currently in nebulous area of "actually pretty finished unless you decide to shoot for the stars", so a lenghty expedition to fuck around and then go fuck off from our old job would be roughly in the Karak Dum and our job as a Loremaster in terms of wrapping arc up.

It would still be up to a vote, but there is probably argument that could be made by some and then leveraged into saying "yeah we did enough" in the post expedition mood.
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Ah, now I understand. The comparison with the Karag Dum arc helped. Now, while I think it's still not worth worrying about at this stage, I can see that it's a valid concern, especially since I'd probably be one of those voting to end the project (at least, with our current knowledge of things).
 
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MrHobbit said:
There are several things contributing to it. For one, Boney has mentioned that the runes that comprise the Waystone Network weren't lost. Not the Karak-Waystone runes, but the Mountain runes. There's giant runes carved on mountains spread out in every direction from Karaz-a-Karak going out for thousands of miles. These are runesmiths we're talking about here. You can't convince them to stop wondering because they don't know how runes work. Every runesmith with aspirations to reverse-engineer is expected to know what every rune still known to the Karaz Ankor looks like. The Mountain-Runes are included in that.

It's a good point about Karak Azul remembering more, but Barak Varr retained knowledge of it. They are the ones who told Thorek that an elven nexus was supposed to be put there, connected to their nexus. They also told him about the Forest of Gloom nexus. The Runesmith clans of the Vaults, who are spread out and a lot more vulnerable than the Old Holds, told Thorek about the nexuses in the Vaults. It's incredibly difficult to believe that the New Holds remembered about their waystones when everyone else except Azul, Dum, and Karaz-a-Karak forgot. How did Barak Varr remember it had an elven nexus but forget about the dwarven nexus? If Barak Varr didn't forget, why would Zhufbar have forgot? Or Kadrin?Also the instant petrification chambers are pretty obvious.

That the energy fed Karaz-a-Karak was public knowledge during the Golden Age. It had to be. How do you think they justified carving Mountain-Runes all the way a thousand miles south to Karag Orrud? All the way near Nehekhara? That's not a secret project limited to a handful of people. That's a civilizational-scale effort. Combined with the fact that wonders of the Ancestor Gods would have been shutting down since the ambient magic was too low, only to come back on as the KAWN was built? It's impossible for it to have been hidden.
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How do you think Belegar would pass on the knowledge that they power something to his future heir.... provided he did not die in battle.

Like what you say makes sense, but i think the cultural reticence to share even something that would be incredibly beneficiary to share, despite it not being actual secret.

I could absolutely believe that dwarves remember that they helped put together Waystone network to rid the world of loathsome magic but that the knowledge of the price they took for it has been forgotten, and the argument arising from it that Elgi are all the more loathsome because Dwarves helped them with open hand, expecting naught in return, and Elves spurning them later on in war of vengeance. It fits.

Maybe at the start there was silence because it wasn't exactly secret but you just don't talk about things like that, and then it became silence because as it faded out the knowledge became secret, and then the secret in full was lost but fragments of information remain.

Its possible that they remember that dwarven and elven networks are distinct but do not know why, and assume they are so because Dwarves foresaw that they would not get on with elves well forever and wanted their own alternative, independent of Vortex.

Or maybe it was much more purposeful. A calculated silence that stamped the information out on purpose across couple of generations, because what if enemies knew that they could turn all dwarves to stone by just.... destroying the links between Karaks.

I dunno, i think its just confluence of sociopolitical factors compounding with demographic collapse that resulted in broken mosaic of knowledge.
 
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pucflek said:
How do you think Belegar would pass on the knowledge that they power something to his future heir.... provided he did not die in battle.

Like what you say makes sense, but i think the cultural reticence to share even something that would be incredibly beneficiary to share, despite it not being actual secret.

I could absolutely believe that dwarves remember that they helped put together Waystone network to rid the world of loathsome magic but that the knowledge of the price they took for it has been forgotten, and the argument arising from it that Elgi are all the more loathsome because Dwarves helped them with open hand, expecting naught in return, and Elves spurning them later on in war of vengeance. It fits.

Maybe at the start there was silence because it wasn't exactly secret but you just don't talk about things like that, and then it became silence because as it faded out the knowledge became secret, and then the secret in full was lost but fragments of information remain.

Its possible that they remember that dwarven and elven networks are distinct but do not know why, and assume they are so because Dwarves foresaw that they would not get on with elves well forever and wanted their own alternative, independent of Vortex.

Or maybe it was much more purposeful. A calculated silence that stamped the information out on purpose, because what if enemies knew that they could turn all dwarves to stone by just.... destroying the links between Karaks.

I dunno, i think its just confluence of sociopolitical factors compounding with demographic collapse that resulted in broken mosaic of knowledge.
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But we know that the knowledge has been passed down the current day, in more than just the Royal Clan of Karag Dum and the High King. Why would Barak Varr remember the elven nexus, that they just stuck in a vault, in comparison to the dwarven nexus which can be monitored? I doubt Thorek Ironbrow was a Runelord a hundred and eighty years ago. He's only three hundred and fifty.

I've addressed this one way or another in a previous comment, I'll just quote the relevant portion below.

MrHobbit said:
It should be noted that Thorek was being extremely shifty about what the Dwarven waystone network did. Boney's even directly said that Thorek is keeping stuff from Mathilde. Think about it for a moment. All the Runesmith Clans knew that magic energy was being sent to Karaz-a-Karak. They all know that magic is can be used and that it obviously was being expended in some fashion. As evidenced by Karaz-a-Karak not exploding in a warpstone explosion. Yet across four thousand years Belegar was the first person to notice that or take problem with it? Clan Angrund had been exiled from Karak Eight Peaks for three millennium. Clan Angrund obviously forgot significant amounts about the wonders their Ancestors had crafted. We got that repeated many times. Thorek knew that magic was being directed towards Karaz-a-Karak before we even brought it up.

Something else to point out about Belegar is that he was being irrational about it. Think about it. One of Belegar's grandparents commissioned eight of those nexuses, knowing it would be directed towards Karaz-a-Karak. That was something that never entered the conversation. Never, not once. The impression I have of the thread is that after Borek's comments about Belegar inheriting secrets and until Thorek mentioned that he monitored the waystone, the thread generally didn't even consider the idea that the Runesmiths knew about the nexuses.

Actually I'm reading more to it and I'm actually convincing myself more that Belegar and Mathilde were being incredibly blind about it. Like read this comment from Boney. Boney mentioned that Mathilde wouldn't think about how the antimagic resistance of dwarves because Runes Just Work. Runesmiths tend to get tetchy about outsiders poking runes. You know who knows how Runes work? You know who knew the nexuses had been sending energy to Karaz-a-Karak, energy that they would know could be used? The runesmiths. So all of the Old Hold Runesmith clans just shrugged entirely about the magic for four millennia? All of them?
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MrHobbit said:
But we know that the knowledge has been passed down the current day, in more than just the Royal Clan of Karag Dum and the High King. Why would Barak Varr remember the elven nexus, that they just stuck in a vault, in comparison to the dwarven nexus which can be monitored? I doubt Thorek Ironbrow was a Runelord a hundred and eighty years ago. He's only three hundred and fifty.
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For the same reason that the Karak Vlag dwarves inventoried books and belongings while in literal hell.

EDIT: I also am either reading you wrong or you are reading me wrong. I think Dwarves remember their contributions and logistics of building waystone network, i just don't think that the knowledge of what they used it for (or that they indeed used it at all for anything distinct from what elves did) remains. I'm not sure if thats related to the post you are making or not, i kinda have hard time parsing it out across the last two pages of conversation.
 
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Imagine that if we picked Skyship(/Flying Tower), it would result in causing severe rivalry between Imperial Wizards & Engineers, and their Dwarfen equivalents... due to latter didn't wanting to be "one-upped by Umgi"

Effect: They begin to make engineering plans to create ThunderBarge for Mathilde that's "more awesome than her umgi-made Skyship"

End result is Mathilde ending with dozens of Skyships & ThunderBarges, with each one being more awesome than previous one
 
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adaer said:
Does he have to, beyond "the magic going to KaK is good, and our ancestors wanted it that way"?
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Knowing dwarves, this transfer of knowledge goes something like "look intensely at the waystone with your heir. Look into the exact direction KaK is in. Nod approvingly. Never talk of that moment ever again."

Thats kinda what i mean.
 
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pucflek said:
For the same reason that the Karak Vlag dwarves inventoried books and belongings while in literal hell.

EDIT: I also am either reading you wrong or you are reading me wrong. I think Dwarves remember their contributions and logistics of building waystone network, i just don't think that the knowledge of what they used it for (or that they indeed used it at all for anything distinct from what elves did) remains. I'm not sure if thats related to the post you are making or not, i kinda have hard time parsing it out across the last two pages of conversation.
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The situation is entirely different. Karak Vlag kept those books because they had been entrusted to them. Barak Varr stuck that nexus in the vault to eliminate the threat it posed. They had just gone to war against the elgi. They're the ones who told Thorek that it would have connected to their nexus for Pete's sake. They even told Thorek about the Forest of Gloom nexus. That wasn't stuck in their own vaults. It is nonsense to argue that Barak Varr's runesmiths remembered about an elgi nexus that would have been stuck outside and yet forgot about their own nexus.

You are reading me wrong. Read this citation from Boney. Runesmiths know how runes are powered. They know that there is a network of Mountain-Runes connecting the Karaks to Karaz-a-Karak. The things that keep Mathilde from asking how it works don't apply to Runesmiths. And yet for four thousand years the Runesmiths didn't ask those questions?

The Mountain-Runes are far to obvious for knowledge of them to have been forgotten, as I previously have quoted Boney saying.

Boney said:
If it was any other species that had enchantments on every single man, woman, and child, Mathilde would very quickly begin to question the energy logistics. But she's used to the idea that runes are reliable, long-lasting, and resist any attempt of hers to understand them. The question 'how do they work?' has the answer 'runes' and any further questions just get 'runes' said again but in a sterner tone.
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pucflek said:
Knowing dwarves, this transfer of knowledge goes something like "look intensely at the waystone with your heir. Look into the exact direction KaK is in. Nod approvingly. Never talk of it ever again."

Thats kinda what i mean.
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Why? Most dwarves aren't Kragg. It wouldn't have been a secret by the time knowledge of the network began falling out of public consciousness. And besides, you know who the Runesmiths monitor the nexuses for? Their Kings. The nexuses are the property of the Kings of the Karak. The runesmiths just monitor them. We can confirm that the Runesmiths of at least four Karaks didn't forget about the nexuses within their Karak: Karag Dum, Karak Azul, Barak Varr, and Karak Izor. Coincidentally those are all of the runesmiths we've asked about nexuses in their Karaks. The only Karak we've seen that didn't know about it was Karak Eight Peaks, and they didn't have a Runesmith's Guild. Their royal clan has spent millennia in exile. The Dragonback Royal Clan also knew about the nexus in Karak Norn.

And we know knowledge of the Mountain-Runes hasn't fallen out of the collective knowledge of the Runesmiths as whole.

Boney said:
Thorek wouldn't have the authority to make that decision. It would be up to the respective Kings. Attempting to negotiate that would be one avenue for further investigation.
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i mean, the first mistake is that you think they monitor them. They physically cannot.

They know that a disparate waystone network exists presumably, they know how the original network worked.

But it does not immediately track that they know what happens to the energy that is sent to the Death Room That Nobody Could Visit In The Last 5 Millenia That Was Not A Human Baby because they cannot see it.

The Young Holds do not have nexuses because they did not get converted yet. Like really, this just smacks of KaK being privy because they are the Capital and Seat of High King, Azul and Dum because they are old, and everyone else forgetting for like fifty different reasons mixing together into memory hole of Dwarven Wonders size.
 
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Adrian XXIV said:
Imagine that if we picked Skyship(/Flying Tower), it would result in causing severe rivalry between Imperial Wizards & Engineers, and their Dwarfen equivalents... due to latter didn't wanting to be "one-upped by Umgi"
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I imagine most would shake their heads at the foolishness of the endeavour. There'd be some radicals among the Dwarven Engineers who'd get inspired, but I don't expect that it would be mainstream enough to cause interfactional friction. It took a Slayer-Engineer to build the Thunderbarge, as a reckless disdain for the possibility of death is a bit of a prerequisite. Common in human wizards and engineers, a lot less common in dwarves.

few of the Thunderbarges have ever been constructed and it is hard to find engineers insane or inebriated enough to fly such dangerous contraptions. In fact, it is not unheard of for the warships to stow a few barrels of Bugman's aboard to give the crew an extra dose of courage when needed.
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pucflek said:
i mean, the first mistake is that you think they monitor them. They physically cannot.

They know that a disparate waystone network exists presumably, they know how the original network worked.

But it does not immediately track that they know what happens to the energy that is sent to the Death Room That Nobody Could Visit In The Last 5 Millenia That Was Not A Human Baby because they cannot see it.

The Young Holds do not have nexuses because they did not get converted yet. Like really, this just smacks of KaK being privy because they are the Capital and Seat of High King, Azul and Dum because they are old, and everyone else forgetting for like fifty different reasons mixing together into memory hole of Dwarven Wonders size.
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No, it was not a mistake. Thorek has confirmed that the Runesmiths of Karak Azul monitor their Karak-waystone. Karak Norn and Karak Izor have nexuses. They don't have Karak-waystones. They have nexuses in the elven style.

Do you have any evidence that contradicts this? Boney has confirmed this in comments in the thread.

Boney said:
As you circle the ruins of what was once the most renowned brewery in the known world and find a torrent of energy flowing in from the west-northwest, you begin to guess at the rest of the tale of Clan Dragonback. Why would part of their Royal Clan walk away from a place of honour in Karak Norn to build a brewery in the lowlands? For duty. Because atop Karak Norn, you now have no doubt, somewhere in that forested plateau upon which grows the finest wood of the Karaz Ankor, is a nexus.
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Boney said:
"The two are not wholly separate, and sufficiently large tremors in one network still flow to the other. I have read accounts of strange fluctuations that I now know to be the work of the Khan-Queens of the Gospodars, and I recorded in my own journals ripples during the Great War that I once believed to be the result of the Elgi fighting over the Great Vortex, and now suspect to be the result of the destruction of Almshoven.
....
He takes four more pins and pushes them into the Vaults, then connects them with string to form a crooked diamond. One of them is Karak Izor
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MrHobbit said:
No, it was not a mistake. Thorek has confirmed that the Runesmiths of Karak Azul monitor their Karak-waystone. Karak Norn and Karak Izor have nexuses. They don't have Karak-waystones. They have nexuses in the elven style.

Do you have any evidence that contradicts this? Boney has confirmed this in comments in the thread.
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My bad on the monitoring, thought i don't see how they do it.

But Thats what i meant by they did not get converted. There are Elven Nexuses, but not Dwarven Karak Waystones. We know this because as new holds, they do not feed the Throne of Power. Which wraps back into Dum and Azul have some inkling because they are old as balls and KaK knows because High King rules from there, and the rest know fuckall.

But all of them would know location of Major Nexuses of Waystone network, because why would they forget that? That's not privileged information like the Karak Waystones are. And even Karak Waystones themselves are not necessarily a proof of Works of Ancestors being powered by central power array battery that we know about OOC.

Like, i am not married to the idea that literally noone knew that things have been going to shit or about the power battery at center of Karaz Ankor, i am just saying that there is plenty of reasons why they might not.

Like

Still not sure what the contention is.

Knowledge:

Of Waystone Network in General
Of Works of Ancestors even ever existing
Of Karak Waystones
Of Differences in Purpose between Elven and Dwarven Nexuses
Of where Karak Waystones send energy
Of Works of Ancestors being powered by Karak Waystones
Of Karak Runes of Valaya being one of these wonders
-Of Massive Species Wide Enchantment

Like these are the different points of knowledge that i think are under question here?

And all i am trying to say is that knowing about any single one of these does necessarily lead into knowing all or even most of the other ones. I would assume that even just moderately knowledgeable loremaster and ranger would know at least locally important 1st point but beyond that? I dunno. I think its possible that most were lost to most. I think its possible some were lost to all but High King. But i don't think we have enough data to really speculate beyond that.

EDIT:
As an aside, is Thorek actually just 350 here? I thought he was something like half of Kragg's age.
 
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