Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
@Boney how widely spread is or was Lupos worship? Tome of Salvation lists him as a Hochland god, but there's also a Sigmarite priest theorising he was in a triumvirate with Taal and Rhya. My thinking is that the triumvirate theory is more likely to be true if it was widespread, and more likely to be a local variation on triumvirate beliefs if it was more local.

Also, what casus belli do the cults of Ulric and Taal give for suppressing Lupos?
 
I need you to understand that I never want to leave loot behind for lack of air lift ever again. Twice isn't a lot, but the twin tragedies of the black college library and the sippy cup camp treasures are already too often enough! 😩
We couldn't have brought an airship along with on the Karag Dum expedition, it would have gotten jumped in the Chaos Wastes by virtue of being far too visible. And while an airship would have had more space for things for the Black College, it would have taken longer to call in. It wouldn't have helped for a great many other times where Mathilde had to make choices about what loot to grab.

And finally, fundamentally, you're not going to avoid having to choose what to take as prizes. That's inherent to the nature of the quest.
 
sippy cup camp treasures are already too often enough! 😩
Its a fair enough position thought I rather think that unless it was extremely stealthy, the wanderer would've been a poor fit for that particular encounter.

I also think that most people are voting with exploration in mind. Not the least for the narrative impact of something that, provided locals don't murder the shit out of it on the way, could make it to Lustria or Cathay in like two to three ap. So far adventures were largely reactive because boney needs time to set up the location and so plot hooks come. A travelling base makes that, I think, a somewhat challenging prospect.
We couldn't have brought an airship along with on the Karag Dum expedition, it would have gotten jumped in the Chaos Wastes by virtue of being far too visible. And while an airship would have had more space for things for the Black College, it would have taken longer to call in. It wouldn't have helped for a great many other times where Mathilde had to make choices about what loot to grab.

And finally, fundamentally, you're not going to avoid having to choose what to take as prizes. That's inherent to the nature of the quest.
Forget visibility, I don't imagine a wizarding vehicle would have a good time in the wind slipstreams.
 
@Boney how widely spread is or was Lupos worship? Tome of Salvation lists him as a Hochland god, but there's also a Sigmarite priest theorising he was in a triumvirate with Taal and Rhya. My thinking is that the triumvirate theory is more likely to be true if it was widespread, and more likely to be a local variation on triumvirate beliefs if it was more local.

Hard to say, because any evidence of wolf-related worship in previous eras tends to be automatically ascribed to Ulric.

Also, what casus belli do the cults of Ulric and Taal give for suppressing Lupos?

Wolves are difficult neighbours.
 
I mean, if I were a minor water spirit seeing a canal go up, I'd go "yo it's free real estate" and leap on the chance to get out from under the thumb of the big wigs embodying the reik or w/e. Learning that it comes with paid employment, offerings and magic to get stronger with without waiting for thousands of years to become ancient and powerful the normal way? Hell yeah, that sounds awesome!

But even if that doesn't happen, the canals are a means of getting waystone boats to places that need surge capacity.

As for secrecy and stuff going back to the nexuses... that's true of the blackwater too, yet they proceeded to commission 40 and draw up plans to build and man forts around each one the moment Thorek corroborated Mathilde's sales pitch.

The dawi don't need the magic to go into their network to want waystones. Perhaps a single digit number of dwarves even know there is a network for magic to be channeled into as opposed to away through. You say "it takes the bad magic away" and that is entirely sufficient.

I expect Naggaryth to be interested as well, consider they're under periodic invasion by dark elves who actively target waystone infrastructure. Being able to run waystone patrols that take the waystone with them would simplify the problem of keeping the network safe immensely.
This is assuming a lot of things about how water spirits work. We don't know anything about how spirits claim territory. Boat waystones would be tolerable for surge capacity, assuming that enough waystones had been built down the river to absorb it. And any waystones built down the river to absorb boat waystones are waystones that could have just been placed on land.

The Black Water's waystones do not feed into a dwarven nexus. Everything that post said still holds true.

The Border Princes near Barak Varr don't have a nexus. The waystones would be limited to the rivers, and dumping whatever magic into the sea. There's a lot more valuable things we can do than that. The Runesmith Clans as a whole know that there is a network. Thorek had been monitoring Karak Azul's waystone during the Great War Against Chaos. He knew it had been connected to the network before it was disconnected. He's only 350 years old. He wouldn't have been the Master Runelord of Karak Azul yet, if he was even a Runelord! There's a decent chance that a handful of the Kings of the Old Holds know there is a nexus and some of the New Holds probably have an idea too. Karak Izor and Karak Norn were founded to have nexuses. 'Single digit number of dwarves' indeed!

Note that the process of getting a nexus in the Border Princes so they can directly benefit Barak Varr will mean directly telling the dwarves about the benefits of the Waystone Network, hence why the Hellwars are a possibility.

Point me to the rivers in Nagarythe that feed into nexuses. There aren't any. There isn't a point to boat waystones there. And like... you know that beastmen also target waystones? Should we completely abandon the idea of covering the interior portions of the Empire because of the mere possibility that they would be destroyed?
 
We couldn't have brought an airship along with on the Karag Dum expedition, it would have gotten jumped in the Chaos Wastes by virtue of being far too visible. And while an airship would have had more space for things for the Black College, it would have taken longer to call in. It wouldn't have helped for a great many other times where Mathilde had to make choices about what loot to grab.

And finally, fundamentally, you're not going to avoid having to choose what to take as prizes. That's inherent to the nature of the quest.
Wasn't the canonical Karag Dum expedition was made with an airship? Granted, a very different type of airship in a fairly different scenario, but it's a bit much to say that an airship couldn't have been used at all.

As for choices, yes, there will always be choices, but the nature of those choices doesn't necessarily have to stay the same if the conditions don't stay the same -- there's a clear difference in looting with major logistical support and looting without it.
 
Added some votes.

[X] Break College Favor/ Tenure
[X] Plan Pickle Requests mk IV
[X] Save the boon until we choose our next project
[X] Armor of von Tarnus

[X] Cooperate with the dwarves on creating the plans for a flying ship type that can, in theory, be regularly produced - plus dibs on a prototype of a larger ship when such is built

===

[X] Books for our Library. If the Colleges lack sufficient Books, go afield or negotiate to acquire more Books.

Honestly I'm surprised some variant of 'BOOK' didn't even enter double-digit votes.
 
To be clear I am just trying to say that it's more that both tower and ship would make for a fantastic complement to imperial and dwarven armies. Setting up an expedition with them that would not be foolishly dangerous seems like it would take quite the setup.
 
This is assuming a lot of things about how water spirits work. We don't know anything about how spirits claim territory. Boat waystones would be tolerable for surge capacity, assuming that enough waystones had been built down the river to absorb it. And any waystones built down the river to absorb boat waystones are waystones that could have just been placed on land.

The Black Water's waystones do not feed into a dwarven nexus. Everything that post said still holds true.

The Border Princes near Barak Varr don't have a nexus. The waystones would be limited to the rivers, and dumping whatever magic into the sea. There's a lot more valuable things we can do than that. The Runesmith Clans as a whole know that there is a network. Thorek had been monitoring Karak Azul's waystone during the Great War Against Chaos. He knew it had been connected to the network before it was disconnected. He's only 350 years old. He wouldn't have been the Master Runelord of Karak Azul yet, if he was even a Runelord! There's a decent chance that a handful of the Kings of the Old Holds know there is a nexus and some of the New Holds probably have an idea too. Karak Izor and Karak Norn were founded to have nexuses. 'Single digit number of dwarves' indeed!

Note that the process of getting a nexus in the Border Princes so they can directly benefit Barak Varr will mean directly telling the dwarves about the benefits of the Waystone Network, hence why the Hellwars are a possibility.

Point me to the rivers in Nagarythe that feed into nexuses. There aren't any. There isn't a point to boat waystones there. And like... you know that beastmen also target waystones? Should we completely abandon the idea of covering the interior portions of the Empire because of the mere possibility that they would be destroyed?
I said that it was a single digit number of dwarves who know magic is being channeled into something in the karaz ankor as opposed to through it. It was a rather major plot point that the high king had to obliquely show that the magic could be put to use for the good of the whole karaz ankor rather than solely for the betterment of karaz a karak, and before then it was a major plot point unknown to Belegar that magic was being channeled in to karaz a karak at all.

To insist that the benefits of sending waystone network flows into the karaz ankor is not a top state secret is absurd.

And after our buttery smooth sale of waystones for handling the black water, it also strains belief that whether or not these spirits would carry magic to the KA network matters to whether or not the individual karaks who might purchase them will want to do so.

Likewise, the notion that this is somehow a substitute for stationary waystone infrastructure where we can support it is... not something I mentioned anywhere, at all, ever. "Surge capacity that can be evacuated from a position under attack" or "stationary infrastructure watched by conventional patrols" is a false dichotomy. Some places will benefit more from one kind than the other, but that is because these are different waystone designs for different use cases.

Either is functional. Both is better.



As for assumptions... so is "there will be nothing to contract with in a canal". I gave a plausible counter-factual to compare with, if you want to move to only talking about things we know, then "every body of water has a spirit" is the null hypothesis we're left with. The only time Boney has said "no" to a water spirit contract being infeasible was the sea of claws for "oh god, why" on why we shouldn't and "the water flows away from the coasts where you'd collect the sea's dhar" for why we couldn't.

And then you're assuming that network linkages from the rivers would somehow have to be overbuilt to support any of this, for some reason? If they're acting as trunk linkages now, they're going to keep being trunk linkages when we build out more permanent stones where they can connect to the river - and even after that, these stones have to suffer through hexennacht impacting themselves directly and indirectly via wide swaths of the upstream network.

These things mean that if we're not building those linkages you're concerned about to withstand temporary increases in flow then we are building them to fail. Characterizing a build-out that features appropriate safety margins a waste is just silly.

But taking a step back from particulars - you're taking an idea that has been QM approved for more than a year and making up reasons why it somehow shouldn't work.

Historically, this has not been a successful questing strategy.
 
Last edited:
And finally, fundamentally, you're not going to avoid having to choose what to take as prizes. That's inherent to the nature of the quest.
This. Going from a gyrocarriage to a flying warship means going from sole ownership of whatever small amount of loot can fit in the tiny hold, to splitting up a larger pile of loot with the other interesting people who are riding along with you in your flying warship. After all, if you didn't plan to bring along a proper adventuring party of interesting people, each of whom will have something useful to contribute that lets them deserve a share of whatever it is you're going to loot, you would've been better off just taking the gyrocarriage.
 
This. Going from a gyrocarriage to a flying warship means going from sole ownership of whatever small amount of loot can fit in the tiny hold, to splitting up a larger pile of loot with the other interesting people who are riding along with you in your flying warship. After all, if you didn't plan to bring along a proper adventuring party of interesting people, each of whom will have something useful to contribute that lets them deserve a share of whatever it is you're going to loot, you would've been better off just taking the gyrocarriage.
Salaried contracts have a way of pre-empting claims over loot. If we're bringing along backup with more interesting compensation agreements, then that implies the pie we'll be dividing up is likewise much larger to have enticed us to consider sharing it.

And also the people being shared with are often our friends whose loot gets put to purposes that benefit us anyways.

And then even after all of that, there's usually some conventional riches to help buffer against any possibility of giving up anything actually interesting like forbidden bööks.

Honestly the more I describe it the more it sounds like all upside, lol.
 
Last edited:
Given the above discussion, I suddenly feel the need to suggest that the skyship be fitted either with bay doors and a crane or a Thunderbird 2-style detachable mid-section pod...
 
Would it be possible to train Apparitions to pilot the ship?
Read the text section of Mathilde training her Red Rider and decide if you want that in charge of piloting anything.

You'd expected something like Wolf, with the familiar urges and needs with a glimmer of awareness overlaying it, but the fallacy in that is obvious: why would something that only pays occasional visit to reality be beholden to drives rooted in biology? There is something very like hunger, if hunger was overlaid with contempt and indignation - if anything, its drive to strike down wielders of destructive magic might be described as a compulsion to restore rightness to the world, in the same way that one might be drawn to straighten a crooked painting. There is also, to your surprise, a sense of what can only be described as joy within it, a streak of gladness that it is able to do what it does. You'd theorized that the laughter that was its harbinger was just an animalistic call, but it is exactly that: an expression of exuberance. The Rider in Red likes what it is and what it does, and you're not sure how to feel about how neatly that slots into place alongside your own soul.

And... that's it. For all that contempt and self-satisfaction are complex emotions, this complexity is outweighed by the absence of anything else within it. As a creature that only encounters biology in the same way that a bullet encounters an Orc, it completely lacks the grab-bag of competing and intermingling drives that the many needs of physical bodies impose upon creatures of flesh. No pleasure or pain, no appetite or satiety, no bravery or fear, no love or lust or jealousy. It has a single purpose that is the sole source of all emotion within it. If nobody in this world ever used destructive magic again, then this being would never again have reason to act in any way.

Apparitions have a single drive, and can be motivated by twisting your soul around a bit to get them to view a target in a way that satiates that drive. That's the extent of control.
 
I said single digit number of dwarves who know magic is being channeled into something in the karaz ankor as opposed to through it. It was a rather major plot point that the high king had to obliquely show that the magic could be put to use for the good of the whole karaz ankor rather than solely for the betterment of karaz a karak, and before then it was a major plot point unknown to Belegar that magic was being channeled in to karaz a karak at all.

To insist that the benefits of sending waystone network flows into the karaz ankor is not a top state secret is absurd.

And after our buttery smooth sale of waystones for handling the black water, it also strains belief that whether or not these spirits would carry magic to the KA network matters to whether or not the individual karaks who might purchase them will want to do so.

Likewise, the notion that this is somehow a substitute for stationary waystone infrastructure where we can support it is... not something I mentioned anywhere, at all, ever. "Surge capacity that can be evacuated from a position under attack" or "stationary infrastructure watched by conventional patrols" is a false dichotomy. Some places will benefit more from one kind than the other, but these are different waystone designs for different use cases.

Both are good.



As for assumptions... so is "there will be nothing to contract with in a canal". I gave a plausible counter-factual to compare with, if you want to move to only talking about things we know, then "every body of water has a spirit" is the null hypothesis we're left with. The only time Boney has said "no" to a water spirit contract being infeasible was the sea of claws for "oh god, why" on why we shouldn't and "the water flows away from the coasts where you'd collect the sea's dhar" for why we couldn't.

And then you're assuming that network linkages from the rivers would somehow have to be overbuilt to support any of this, for some reason? You're taking an idea that has been QM approved for more than a year and making up reasons why it somehow shouldn't work.

This is not a historically successful strategy.
It should be noted that Thorek was being extremely shifty about what the Dwarven waystone network did. Boney's even directly said that Thorek is keeping stuff from Mathilde. Think about it for a moment. All the Runesmith Clans knew that magic energy was being sent to Karaz-a-Karak. They all know that magic is can be used and that it obviously was being expended in some fashion. As evidenced by Karaz-a-Karak not exploding in a warpstone explosion. Yet across four thousand years Belegar was the first person to notice that or take problem with it? Clan Angrund had been exiled from Karak Eight Peaks for three millennium. Clan Angrund obviously forgot significant amounts about the wonders their Ancestors had crafted. We got that repeated many times. Thorek knew that magic was being directed towards Karaz-a-Karak before we even brought it up.

Something else to point out about Belegar is that he was being irrational about it. Think about it. One of Belegar's grandparents commissioned eight of those nexuses, knowing it would be directed towards Karaz-a-Karak. That was something that never entered the conversation. Never, not once. The impression I have of the thread is that after Borek's comments about Belegar inheriting secrets and until Thorek mentioned that he monitored the waystone, the thread generally didn't even consider the idea that the Runesmiths knew about the nexuses.

Actually I'm reading more to it and I'm actually convincing myself more that Belegar and Mathilde were being incredibly blind about it. Like read this comment from Boney. Boney mentioned that Mathilde wouldn't think about how the antimagic resistance of dwarves because Runes Just Work. Runesmiths tend to get tetchy about outsiders poking runes. You know who knows how Runes work? You know who knew the nexuses had been sending energy to Karaz-a-Karak, energy that they would know could be used? The runesmiths. So all of the Old Hold Runesmith clans just shrugged entirely about the magic for four millennia? All of them?

Even ignoring that theory, what I said still holds. The Runesmith clans know that they broke the connection with Ulthuan during the War of Vengeance. How do you think Thorek knew that the Runesmiths had broken the connection? They know that they lost the capability to do that. (I have a theory that they broke that connection by leveling the connected nexuses, hence why the Belthani rebuilt Eicheschatten and Gross Selon.)

The Black Water is a heavily corrupted pool of water. How many of those do you think exist near Old Holds? The Black Water is very different circumstances compared to the landscape of the other Old Holds. Kadrin, Varr, Eight Peaks, ect don't have corrupted bodies of water like that.

It's heavily implied. Why would Barak Varr bother with boat waystones if there are already waystones out there? You said 'the Dawi dislike having infrastructure outside of the mountain', this in contrast to stationary waystones. How is that statement relevant if we're making normal waystones? How is Barak Varr made more secure for having boat waystones if it already has waystones dotting the landscape? How is Nagarythe? The answer is that it isn't relevant unless you just want boat waystones there.

That was the proposal of riverine waystones though. The initial update mentioned planting waystones as channel markers around nexuses to absorb the magic before it heads into the ocean. Boney mentioned that can't be done with Barak Varr, because you can't connect waystones to dwarven nexuses. Boney was asked about Thorek keeping the secret of plugging waystones into dwarven Karak-waystones, with the comment saying that there was not even a possibility of asking how to do it. Boney replied that Thorek's first loyalty is not to Mathilde.

Getting it out is trickier - this river uses a waterfall to release the magic back into the air, which works fine here but wouldn't really be an option for most rivers without obstructing the traffic that flows along it."

"Why not?" Elrisse asks. "Just have a canal that bypasses it for river traffic."

"You're right," you say after a moment of thought. "Actually, if we did it just south of Altdorf, river traffic could use the existing Weissbruck Canal to bypass it. Okay, that's one possible means of discharge. The one I had in mind was just putting down a series of Waystones like channel markers along the run of the river, however many are required for the amount of magic flowing, and then feed it from there directly into a Nexus. Probably the one at Altdorf, though it could also be set up at Nuln and Talabecland if there's some sort of bottleneck."
You don't have a way to plug any of the Waystones into a Dwarven Nexus. The closest you could do would just be to release magic near a Nexus and hope it doesn't cause too many unintended consequences before the Nexus gets it.
Isn't that what we were planning to do with regular nexuses before Ulthuan gave us the codes, only instead of uninhabited mountain peaks it was cities at the mouths of rivers? I get that it's not ideal, but... ah, I think I see. We couldn't sell it to the dwarfs as opposed to say Kislev who would be willing to take the risks if we did not have the codes, right?
Problematic amounts of ambient magic was already the status quo for Praag, yeah. There was an anticipated amount of trying things out that might have fixed things to some extent that was rendered unnecessary by Ulthuan's cooperation.
 
Would it be possible to train Apparitions to pilot the ship?
To echo what Gavin Prince says, no, Apparitions are smart enough to fight independently, but they're not smarter than that. They're smart enough to be trained to attack someone, or reactively attack someone, and maybe even target specific foes, but that's about it.

Also, Apparitions can't go 'yes captain!' when you give dramatic battle orders or ship directions or whatever.
 
To echo what Gavin Prince says, no, Apparitions are smart enough to fight independently, but they're not smarter than that. They're smart enough to be trained to attack someone, or reactively attack someone, and maybe even target specific foes, but that's about it.

Also, Apparitions can't go 'yes captain!' when you give dramatic battle orders or ship directions or whatever.
I could see there being an interesting niche case of an apparition serving as a (very specific) navigation/tracking/warning system. Like having one that if it detects dark magic within X miles it just blares an alarm and turns itself into an ominous arrow inside a big glass sphere on the deck pointing towards said dark magic use? Would definitely be finicky, but iirc the "detects use of battle magic and attacks" variant for the red rider spell would have had a range of miles, so using a more discerning apparition type and amped up by being an enchantment makes me think that might be possible...if, again, niche
 
Gyrocopters are proven technology. Noone has flown an airship on Mallus for millennia. There are no tested plans, no living tradition of building them, no pilots with flight hours or procedures for them to follow. It's all exciting and new again. You know how they honour flight pioneers? Posthumously.
 
Gyrocopters are proven technology. Noone has flown an airship on Mallus for millennia. There are no tested plans, no living tradition of building them, no pilots with flight hours or procedures for them to follow. It's all exciting and new again. You know how they honour flight pioneers? Posthumously.
Looks at Mathilde accidentally communing with a demon and almost doing megaheresy as part of her research to give the Colleges their orbs

I think we're well past worrying about practical risks.
 
Back
Top