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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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[X] Plan: The Prismatic Wanderer
[X] Armor of von Tarnus
[X] Break College Favor/ Tenure
[X] Save the boon until we choose our next project
[X] Plan Tower of Doom! and Research!
[X] Dispensation to study methods of destroying or beneficially transforming Dhar

Absolutely not the hodgepodge of random stuff we could get with normal boons. I want something big and special.
 
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Abby Normal said:
Do we...have a boney post on that? i feel like i've seen this said before but never with a citation... @Boney ?
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From when the Armour was first approved:
Boney said:
Gavin Prince said:
Could we ask for the Armor of Tarnus? Some wizards gotta wear it.
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Mathilde would have to learn how to move in armour, but yes.
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It doesn't say AP explicitly, but learning skills is a well established category of actions, and I don't see a reason we wouldn't need AP in this context.
 
Abby Normal said:
Do we...have a boney post on that? i feel like i've seen this said before but never with a citation... @Boney ?
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Boney said:
Mathilde would have to learn how to move in armour, but yes.
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The default thread assumption has been "an AP spent on a training action." This assumption has not been confirmed, nor do I expect it to be confirmed one way or another until and unless we actually grab the armor and Boney needs to nail down specifics.

(Clearly this means people should vote for Pickle Requests! It is the only armor upgrade option that doesn't cost an AP in either training or enchanting, and it even upgrades our mode of transportation! :V)
 
Sinsystems said:
One plus side of the ship is that if we do get involved in some high level politics, it would be a great way for whomever we work for to arrive at diplomatic events or just travel.
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We're already involved in high level politics. Mathilde's word has moved armies and her actions have changed nations. We regularly talk with royalty and advisors to royalty.
Nerdasaurus Rex said:
It's not disingenuous when people are voting for the armour on the basis that we'll be able to jump right into the Elfcation with it. It is fact that we need to train with the armour, and if we want it for the Elfcation we have to spend that action tax. Some people might want to spend it as a forth action on the same turn as the Elfcation and some might want to wait a turn in case something goes poorly.

All I'm trying to do is inform people, and if I decided to share my opinion alongside that, then I don't actually see how that's a problem. I think a lot of people in the thread would choose to delay a turn so that we can fully master wearing the armour, and it's not wrong for me to say that.
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You are not incorrect, but you can't guarantee that result. The way it was phrased came off as borderline fearmongering about the AP costs of the Elfcation to argue against an option you don't like to me. I felt it was disingenuous because even if you didn't try to push the point, it was still implied that "if we vote armor, we won't get the elfcation".

If that is not your intentions, I apologize for the accusation, but that is what it looked like to me.
 
Prime 2.0 said:
It's still a non-sequitor if the knighthood you are trying to analyze for is not the same as the knighthood that people are voting to pursue.

As far as I can tell nobody is holding out for some threshold where an external factor will swoop in because Mathilde is now a knight.

Knght is just a word they are using to describe the thing they like, which they see the armor of Von tarnus as doubling down on.

More generally, semantics are a terrible lens for debating vibes and aesthetics. If it was clearly and explicitly articulated, it wouldn't be vibes.

This will continue to be true and unproductive if you continue to press the point.
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See now I have the problem that to argue my point I'd have to dredge up every single post on the subject I answered to see if there are non-vibes aspects to them. I seem to recall there being some and those being the ones I argued with, but at the same time I do not think it would be productive to follow this line of reasoning any longer so I'm just going to bow out.
 
[X] Plan Pickle Requests mk IV
[X] Plan Not Pickle Requests Variant with Apparitions

[X] Armor of von Tarnus
 
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DragonParadox said:
I'm going to be honest with you, I resent the accusation. If you think I am doing something against forum rules I suggest you use the report button otherwise please engage with my arguments not my person and supposed intent
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At the risk of dog piling...

Well, at the risk of, I'm going to try to keep it from being that.

But at the risk of dog piling, I need to point something out here: There are not very good norms for how to indicate that somebody has given up on productive discussion with somebody on sufficient velocity or space battles for that matter. Even approaching the subject incautiously is something that can eat you points.

So it gets bottled up instead. pressure cooked, until suddenly...
Derpmind said:
I'm gonna be blunt. I no longer believe you are arguing in good faith. You repeatedly badger anyone who mentions Mathilde as a knight, and have been doing so continually for this entire vote. When politely asked not to do that, you respond with the most neutral arguments you can come up with to justify continuing to badger people going forwards. This is not the behavior of someone trying to persuade people or honestly present an argument. This is the behavior of someone trying to silence a discussion by taking up all the air in the room.
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Boom.

People are biased towards assuming malice when they reach that point of frustration where they have to let it out.

What you need to understand here is that you have repeated the same argument to multiple people over multiple pages for quite some time.

To an outsider, it appears as though nothing is meaningfully altering the situation or how you approach it. They don't necessarily know why, And I'm not going to assume to know why.

But doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result is sometimes called insanity, So if you thought you were making progress on this by repeating the semantic argument about nights, you may need to be evaluated whether or not that was a good decision, because not only Could doing that be considered to be a little crazy...

It's a discussion, so you are effectively going around asking people to be crazy with you, Responding to the same exact argument over and over and over again with no visible change in result.

Trolls do this on purpose.

I'm not convinced that you are a troll. But I think we can both agree that it is important to put in the effort to avoid the appearance of it, even before questions of whether or not your approach is productive enter the situation, which I brought up in my prior post.

TL;DR, if your participation in a discussion is starting to look like bait if you squint, you should step back and change tack, or you can't reasonably expect not to be called a fisherman.
 
Prime 2.0 said:
At the risk of dog piling...

Well, at the risk of, I'm going to try to keep it from being that.

But at the risk of dog piling, I need to point something out here: There are not very good norms for how to indicate that somebody has given up on productive discussion with somebody on sufficient velocity or space battles for that matter. Even approaching the subject incautiously is something that can eat you points.

So it gets bottled up instead. pressure cooked, until suddenly...

Boom.

People are biased towards assuming malice when they reach that point of frustration where they have to let it out.

What you need to understand here is that you have repeated the same argument to multiple people over multiple pages for quite some time.

To an outsider, it appears as though nothing is meaningfully altering the situation or how you approach it. They don't necessarily know why, And I'm not going to assume to know why.

But doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result is sometimes called insanity, So if you thought you were making progress on this by repeating the semantic argument about nights, you may need to be evaluated whether or not that was a good decision, because not only Could doing that be considered to be a little crazy...

It's a discussion, so you are effectively going around asking people to be crazy with you, Responding to the same exact argument over and over and over again with no visible change in result.

Trolls do this on purpose.

I'm not convinced that you are a troll. But I think we can both agree that it is important to put in the effort to avoid the appearance of it, even before questions of whether or not your approach is productive enter the situation, which I brought up in my prior post.

TL;DR, if your participation in a discussion is starting to look like bait if you squint, you should step back and change tack, or you can't reasonably expect not to be called a fisherman.
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I appreciate the time you put into formulating this and I think you are right about the subject being about as debated as it reasonably could be. I could quibble about that insanity line (and to be honest I did write and then delete a paragraph about that) but I do not think meta textual discourse on the mechanics of forum posting would be helpful here.

So yeah, thanks for the heads up.
 
DragonParadox said:
I appreciate the time you put into formulating this and I think you are right about the subject being about as debated as it reasonably could be. I could quibble about that insanity line (and to be honest I did write and then delete a paragraph about that) but I do not think meta textual discourse on the mechanics of forum posting would be helpful here.

So yeah, thanks for the heads up.
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Yeah, "crazy" was maybe a bit strong, especially when I forgot to keep the qualifier of "a little" consistent, but that's what happens when I don't have time to do much revision of my post I guess, lol.

Point though is just that before perceptions of you come into play, repeating the same exchange a bunch of times with similar, unproductive(?) results is something most people probably wouldn't do on purpose... but the longer you do it, the harder it is for anyone to explain why you still are without it being deliberate.

Is time being wasted on accident, or on purpose? The more time is wasted, the more people will suspect it's on purpose. And if it's on purpose, absent some wild edge case it's in bad faith.

I could go into what those alternatives are, but I'm out of time, lol. This post as with the last is not the best with its wording, so apologies if I implied something I shouldn't have.

Sorry for pulling you back in after you said you wanted to bow back out by the way - I only saw it after my previous reply.
 
[X] Dispensation to study methods of destroying or beneficially transforming Dhar
[X] Plan Pickle Requests mk IV
 
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So, just brainstorming a bit but, the next big research project I'd love to go for is the language thing. They all seem to share a common source, magical or mundane versions. Now for this to work we need to learn all the languages we can and it would be best if we learned it from as pure a source as possible so that language drift doesn't interfere. This would mean (to me) that we need to travel to all the different capitals and find the best teacher and then rummage through all the oldest books with enough language to take notes...

... And a big ass flying ship is just the wheels to rock up to those things!
 
[X] Plan Pickle Requests mk IV
[X] Armor of von Tarnus
[X] Save the boon until we choose our next project
[X] Plan Not Pickle Requests Variant with Apparitions
[X] Plan : Sky Citadel
[X]Enchant We-Silk Robes as best as Collegiate is able
[X] Dispensation to study methods of destroying or beneficially transforming Dhar. 'I have seen Dwarven Rune magic that can burn Dhar into nothing or smash it into aspectless rune power, Qhaysh that can unravel Dhar, and the slow transformation under specific circumstances of Dhar into aspectless Earthbound magic, but have been unable to study them lest I fall afoul of the Articles. I would wish to study these and similar things I encounter (though taking care to not impinge upon Dwarven Runepriest secrets) in order to develop a form of destruction or beneficial transformation of Dhar that the Colleges of Magic can use.'
[x] Plan Tower of Doom! and Research!
[x] Support in dispatching Battle Wizards to one major conflict of Mathilde's choice
[x] Plan Mammoth Battle Altar Cavalry/Mammothry
[x] Elector-Countess
[X] Plan Chivalric waywatchers:
-[X] Help to found and maintain a chivalric order staffed with mages and knights aimed towards recovery of nexus sites in the Old World.
 
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Tobtorp said:
So, just brainstorming a bit but, the next big research project I'd love to go for is the language thing. They all seem to share a common source, magical or mundane versions. Now for this to work we need to learn all the languages we can and it would be best if we learned it from as pure a source as possible so that language drift doesn't interfere. This would mean (to me) that we need to travel to all the different capitals and find the best teacher and then rummage through all the oldest books with enough language to take notes...

... And a big ass flying ship is just the wheels to rock up to those things!
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Well we can get Arcane Khazalid from the source, I do not think that would have diverged and Anoquoen we can get from the Grey Lords which is as close to the source as anything in the White Tower if not more so (payment would be in the form of teaching them our reconstituted language).

After that though it gets iffy, our source of High Nehekaran would be Altdorf academics in their Nehekaran obsession phase. Not to say there aren't native speakers left, but they er... don't tend to be friendly.

Scythian we can probably wheedle out of Kislev though that probably has a Daemonic origin, Dark Tongue we can learn from the Colleges and best not to ask where they learned it, we do not want a primary source. That's it for the easy sources, though it's quite a lot to be getting on with.

Personally I think we should do High Nehekaran first so we can read those notes and scrolls. Feels weird to have stuff we could be executed for in our possession and not having even read them. :V
 
DragonParadox said:
Well we can get Arcane Khazalid from the source, I do not think that would have diverged and Anoquoen we can get from the Grey Lords which is as close to the source as anything in the White Tower if not more so (payment would be in the form of teaching them our reconstituted language).

After that though it gets iffy, our source of High Nehekaran would be Altdorf academics in their Nehekaran obsession phase. Not to say there aren't native speakers left, but they er... don't tend to be friendly.

Scythian we can probably wheedle out of Kislev though that probably has a Daemonic origin, Dark Tongue we can learn from the Colleges and best not to ask where they learned it, we do not want a primary source. That's it for the easy sources, though it's quite a lot to be getting on with.

Personally I think we should do High Nehekaran first so we can read those notes and scrolls. Feels weird to have stuff we could be executed for in our possession and not having even read them. :V
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I mean, I get your thinking but I'd be really surprised if there wasn't some drift in the eonir tongue, same with high nehekaran (and there are tomb princes who rule cities were alive people live.) also ogre tongue, cathayan, lizard speak. Lots of options one could and should explore where a flying boat would be useful.
 
Tobtorp said:
I mean, I get your thinking but I'd be really surprised if there wasn't some drift in the eonir tongue, same with high nehekaran (and there are tomb princes who rule cities were alive people live.) also ogre tongue, cathayan, lizard speak. Lots of options one could and should explore where a flying boat would be useful.
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Thing is even if their arcane tongue drifted, the Grey Lords are not Eonir linguistically, though they may consider themselves such culturally now. They are personally older than the White Tower, if anything they would have kept the language in something closer to its original form then the Asur.

It would be cool to talk to that prince with living subjects and yeah it would be helpful to have a sky ship for that. Intimidation is the language of diplomacy they are most likely to speak.
 
Nerdasaurus Rex said:
I should point out that we can't use the Von Tarnus armour until we have spent one action practicing with it—this will either delay the Elfcation by a turn, or add an AP tax to the Elfcation, making it cost 4AP.

If the armour wins, I think it would be highly unlikely that we'll go on Elfcation next turn.
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That's really not an issue. We can spare a single AP to get the permanent benefits of the super armor. We'd have to do it at some point, might as well do it when we get the armor. That still leaves, what? 2AP for other stuff, and the only time-sensitive thing going on next turn is continuing Eike's teaching, which we can easily do with 2AP. Doubly so if we ask Regimand to fill in for us while we're in Ulthuan, perhaps spending a CF to do so. (He'd probably enjoy the opportunity to spend time with and help train the apprentice of his apprentice, and if we spent a CF for his efforts then he'd be compensated for his time as well. We can give him a category of things to work with her on and know his teaching style will be able to handle it just fine.)

The Waystone Project can afford to wait a turn if it comes down to it; it's hit the ground running and pumping out waystones for three different places right now.
 
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