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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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We-silk was never gonna be some gigantic advantage to our armor anymore than having silk for our bedsheets was gonna make Mathilde better at overworking due to sleeping better or whatever.

But silk robes would both be representative of one of Mathilde's more sentimental achievements, and they would be very very comfortable.

Koguyra said:
I'm surprised people didn't try to turn Abelheim's witch hunter hat into an enchanted item yet given the sentimental value and the fact Mathilde keeps wading into high danger zones with it on.
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We'd need to drop one of our existing magic items, is the problem. Possibly the Dragonflask, given how we've only used it once, and given how the Grounding Rod will probably save our life one day?

But I think I've actually previously proposed enchanting the hat with the battle magic spell The Withering. It just makes sense that your enemy's courage might fail with the fear and doubt caused by a witch-hunter's hat. And it would mean Mathilde wouldn't need to actually cast it (since it's a spell she would always have to roll for, given that it's not based on mist or fog or a miasma), she'd only need to roll the dice to enchant it the one time (which can be mitigated with the Gambler).
 
picklepikkl said:
Partisans of We-silk robes instead of the Armor of von Tarnus: You guys, uh, realize that mundane armor doesn't stack with Aethyric Armour, right? The reason why to have the We-silk robes instead of regular-ass robes is like 75% "style points" and 25% "maybe having a more protective base will make the enchantment anchor better and be able to be active more." But we haven't increased our Magic score and the fact that it'll be extra-tough spider silk doesn't matter, so these robes will actually not protect Mathilde better through anything except any extra enchantment we Windherd onto them: neither the Aethyric Armour nor the fabric are an improvement. This is why the Armor of von Tarnus is so impressive, because von Tarnus looked at that restriction on AA and laughed.
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The point of redoing the robes has nothing to do with increasing the level of armor, which is already past the point of diminishing returns. The point is that the robes are largely a convenience item that currently aren't really doing anything but saving Mathilde a bit of cast time. The original intended design of the current robes kinda just failed, as people wanted the AA and mastery to be always-on and instead got a hardened robe with all the extra effects on-activation-only with an uncertain duration.

If the We-silk does turn out more conducive to magic, we wouldn't be chasing a quantitative improvement to armor but a qualitative one of keeping it always active (possibly also with the inclusion of more power stones than the 1 in the original design).

Windherding creates the possibility of adding synergistic effects on the same item. That doesn't mean trying to stack more armor, it means having options like Leaf Fall which creates physical concealment, or Portent of Amul which negates crits, or even really petty stuff like Crown of Fire or Death's Messenger to make Mathilde inspiring or scary.
 
i cant remember, is Tocter an enchanter or did she call on friends for the jade river stones? if she is one she could be a fun collaborator for a The Wilds Undisturbed robe.
 
Pickle's Personal Protection Proposal Pile-Up

Thesis: We would like to keep our insides where they are, but we would also occasionally encounter entities who disagree with this (due to religious enmity, desire to conquer our homeland, hatin' us cause they ain't us, etc.). Consequently, we have historically seen fit to invest in magical defenses in the form of enchanted defenses, henceforth referred to as Mathilde's Magnificent Mantle.

MMM mk I: Aethyric Armour on basic robes, enchanted at Magic 5
MMM mk II: Aethyric Armour + Tireless Mastery on basic robes, enchanted at Magic 9, making use of a powerstone and helldrake scales (which are potentially but not-guaranteed salvageable)

Since Armor of von Tarnus, aka "the straightforwardly best no-upgrades-ever-needed option for defense the way Branulhune is for offense" is unlikely to win at this juncture, the purpose of this post is to consider designs for MMM mk III, since we will be able to use We-silk as a foundation rather than basic robes. While the We-silk's defensive strength will not stack with Aethyric Armour, possibly its defensive strength will help anchor the enchantment. And while we're at it, let's use this as an opportunity to herd some mothafuckin Winds and maybe advance that skill, like, any at all (and, more seriously, incorporate a more diverse protective effect than we could working alone).

So I'm going to evaluate spells from every Wind to consider how valuable they might be when Windherded onto robes where the other half of the enchantment is Mathilde's Aethyric Armour. We're going to go in order starting with Hysh, as Hysh has the advantage of "we only need a WEB-MAT action rather than a full personal action" over the other six Winds. I'm going to rate Compatibility on a scale of Incompatible to Compatible with Aethyric Armour and with having a brain full of Ulgu (by word of Boney for those two ratings, with intermediate ratings being my best judgment because it's my list dammit). I'm only going to be evaluating spells that are utility or protection, not healing or damage, since the goal of this exercise is to fill the Armor slot and I don't want to play silly buggers with Boney. And I'm not going to be evaluating Battle Magic spells because god damn it let's walk before we tap-dance on a high wire above a shark tank.

All spells taken from the Spellbook threadmark.

Hysh
Cleansing Glow / RS / Compatible
Never having to launder our robes again is not worth this.

Dazzling Brightness / RS / Probably Compatible
Dazzling a few guys has potential but doesn't seem that strong as an AOE CC option.

Clarity / RS / Probably Incompatible
Hysh in our brainmeats is bad and the effect isn't great.

Shimmering Cloak / RS / Probably Compatible
Only reduces damage from nonmagical ranged attacks and makes it impossible to hide. Bad choice.

Radiant Sentinel / MC / Compatible
This has strong potential -- it blocks attacks without getting in the way of our own, augmenting our defenses in a different way than Aethyric Armour does.

Inspiration / MC / Probably Incompatible
Brainmeats clause.

The Power of Truth / MC / Maybe Compatible
This is an interesting utility power but I have no idea if this is brainmeats-affecting or not and honestly our Diplo is pretty good right now.

Eyes of Truth / FC / Maybe Compatible
Very strong utility power for winning games of Spy v. Spy, but unsure if this is brainmeats-incompatible.

Blinding Light / FC / Probably Compatible
Solid AOE CC option for foes that use their eyes (i.e. most humanoids, some undead and daemons)

Chamon
Guard of Steel / RS / Compatible
Blocks attacks like Radiant Sentinel, but being physical objects makes it maybe get in our way.

Law of Form / RS / Probably Incompatible
My guess here is that Law of Form and Aethyric Armour both trying to make the robe tougher is not going to work.

Law of Logic / RS / Incompatible
Braaains

Rigidity of Body and Mind / MC / Incompatible
That "and Mind" is a real issue here.

Enchant Item / FC / Incompatible
The thing where Enchant Item will make the We-silk better at being mundane armor but Aethyric Armour doesn't stack with mundane armor is a bummer.

Ghyran
Track's Tale Told / RS / Probably Incompatible
I kinda like the idea of Mathilde Weber, Master Hunter, but unfortunately the Brainmeats Clause probably applies

Fat of the Land / RS / Probably Incompatible
Leaving Ghyran in our body for a week seems bad and feeding ourself is usually abstracted.

Tree-Dweller's Step / RS / Probably Compatible
This is kind of cool for enhancing our vertical mobility. Probably not worth it right now, but might be worth it if we're ever spending lots of time in a relevant environment.

The Wilds Undisturbed / MC / Probably Compatible
This is a neat option for getting through dense wilderness quickly, but Shadowrider mostly obsoletes it.

Leaf Fall / MC / Probably Compatible
Safety from ranged attacks is probably less important to Mathilde these days when she has Smoke and Mirrors and Illusion to reposition around the battlefield.

Earth Gate / MC / Maybe Compatible
Even if it works, just doesn't seem worth the bother when we have Smoke and Mirrors

Spring Bloom / MC / Probably Incompatible
[This entry has been censored to comply with SV Rule Six]

Flesh of Clay / FC / Maybe Compatible
Unfortunately we have a fighting style that basically wants the opposite of this: our personal muscle power is nearly irrelevant and our speed and agility is everything.

Azyr
All the luck and reroll powers / Varied / Incatpatible
"Don't."

Omen / RS / Maybe Compatible
This sounds really annoying to write and I propose we don't dump it on Boney.

Birdspeak / MC / Maybe Compatible
This sounds hilarious to write and I'm genuinely tempted to dump it on Boney.

Project Spirit / MC / Compatible
This is a really fascinating option for scouting, with the downside of all the bad things that can befall a wandering soul in this setting.

Wings of Heaven / MC / Compatible
Upside: Upside. Downside: Approaching very rapidly when your opponent boops it with a Dispel.

Finding Divination / FC / Probably Incompatible
Brainmeats clause saves Boney from needing to field "why didn't Mathilde just Finding Divination" for the rest of the entire fucking quest

Starshine / FC / Probably Compatible
Neat option for Spy vs Spy bullshit.

Shyish
Death's Messenger / RS / Probably Compatible
Honestly, I feel like scaring the piss out of people isn't really an area where Mathilde is currently lacking.

Deathsight / RS / Incompatible
Alas, doesn't jive with our brains.

Acceptance of Fate / MC / Maybe Compatible
Wouldn't work on Mathilde but might work on folks around her. Is it worth it? Doesn't really seem it to me unless we fight stuff that inflicts supernatural terror often.

Final Words / MC / Probably Compatible
See "Omen."

The Icy Grip of Death / MC / Probably Compatible
Strong AOE CC option.

Ward Against Abomination / MC / Probably Compatible
But I want them to approach so we can wreck their shit.

Death's Door / FC / Maybe Compatible
Not going to lie, "go out like an absolute G" has a lot going for it as an option.

Aqhsy
Crown of Fire / RS / Compatible
We literally had this in an item before and got rid of it because we weren't about that life. Are we about that life now? I'm not convinced.

Curtain of Flame / MC / Maybe Compatible
I really only want this so we can do the trick from Ghost Story where you conjure an illusory wall of fire to fuck with enemies, then they realize it's just an illusion and start ignoring them, and then you spring the real wall of fire on 'em, because that scene was awesome (god I hope Twelve Months is any good).

Hearts of Fire / MC / Maybe Compatible
See "Acceptance of Fate."

Shield of Aqshy / MC / Maybe Compatible
Useless to us because Kragg the Grim is awesome.

Aqshy's Aegis / FC / Maybe Compatible
Slightly more useful to us because Kragg doesn't like other people like he likes us.

Ghur
All the transformation spells / Varied / RAAAAAAAARGH
Being wrapped in Ghur is unhealthy for a Shadowmancer.

The Beast Made Well / RS / Probably Compatible
Redundant with the Seed if we ever really need to heal an animal.

The Ox Stands / MC / Maybe Compatible
See "Hearts of Fire."

The Talking Beast / MC / Probably Compatible
Useful if we ever get isekai'd into the Lassie movies.

The Boar's Hide / MC / Probably Incompatible
Probably counts as augmenting the mundane armor properties of the robe and thus doesn't stack with AA.

Cowering Beasts / MC / Probably Compatible
AOE CC against enemies vulnerable to fear.

The Beast Unleashed / MC / Probably Compatible
Those of you around my age probably heard the Bloodlust sound effect from Warcraft 2 in your head when you read this spell description. Anyway, doesn't really seem like our thing, usually our allies aren't the kind that want to be frenzied.

Conclusions:
Strongest purely defensive options seem to be Guard of Steel and Radiant Sentinel.
Strongest CC option seems to be The Icy Grip of Death.
Strongest utility options seem to be Eyes of Truth, Starshine, and Death's Door.
Most tempting option that is absolutely going to bite us in the ass is Project Spirit.
Funniest option is Birdspeak.
 
Natch said:
The point of redoing the robes has nothing to do with increasing the level of armor, which is already past the point of diminishing returns. The point is that the robes are largely a convenience item that currently aren't really doing anything but saving Mathilde a bit of cast time. The original intended design of the current robes kinda just failed, as people wanted the AA and mastery to be always-on and instead got a hardened robe with all the extra effects on-activation-only with an uncertain duration.

If the We-silk does turn out more conducive to magic, we wouldn't be chasing a quantitative improvement to armor but a qualitative one of keeping it always active (possibly also with the inclusion of more power stones than the 1 in the original design).
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Definitely! Although I suspect that, ironically, the We-silk might resonate a bit more with Ghur than with Ulgu. It'd be funny if suddenly the Ambers started wearing more clothing as a result of this.

Natch said:
Windherding creates the possibility of adding synergistic effects on the same item. That doesn't mean trying to stack more armor, it means having options like Leaf Fall which creates physical concealment, or Portent of Amul which negates crits, or even really petty stuff like Crown of Fire or Death's Messenger to make Mathilde inspiring or scary.
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Personally, I think more than Windherding, we should be looking at the possibility of including other Shadow spells into the robes, on top of permanent Aethyric armor + mastery. Maybe Shadowcloak, or Take No Heed? Like, when we used the power stone for the robes, it was noted that it didn't really get used to its fullest potential, and I think that means we could have fitted in a smaller shadow spell in there at less difficulty.

dinomannitro6 said:
i cant remember, is Tocter an enchanter or did she call on friends for the jade river stones? if she is one she could be a fun collaborator for a The Wilds Undisturbed robe.
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She's a ritualist, not an enchanter as far as we know. Presumably she either called in a favor or just directly asked the Colleges at no cost because any component that makes its way to a waystone is a huge prestige boost.
 
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Thank you for such a thorough examination, Pickle!

picklepikkl said:
The Icy Grip of Death
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To offer an exploratory thought: if we wanted to go in a more offensive direction than automatic Aethyric Armour, TIGoD seems like it would synergise very well with Throttling, or even Roiling Shadows if Mathilde can manage it. Stunning enemies in an area before subjecting them to strangulation and/or general shadow blending sounds like it could be extremely destructive (if potentially concerningly indiscriminate).
 
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picklepikkl said:
There aren't, though. Our robes have Magic 9 Aethyric Armour. If we enchant new robes, they will have Magic 9 Aethyric Armour. There is no super awesome defensive enchantment that has become available to us between then and now -- it's just "we could see an incremental improvement by Windherding something instead of incorporating our Mastery like our current robes do".
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I got the impression from Mathilde's internal narration when she created her current set of robes that they weren't actually very well done (in particular she thought that the drake scales and the power-stone weren't being used nearly as well as they could have been), and that a robe made of better materials and (ideally) with a better roll would be a significant upgrade for that alone. Was that inaccurate?
 
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I think there are more options if it's not about immediate resistance to stabbing.

Enchant Item could be useful enhancing conceptual aspects, like grace, diplomacy, or endurance. I don't know if it could enhance an Ulgu aspect of the robes, but at least that kind of hack wouldn't have come up normally since you can't stack Enchant Item with itself.

Boar's Hide has to do something different or better than Aethyric Armor, or it wouldn't be in the spellbook when there is a Lesser spell.

Summer Heat centered on the robe is normally a terrible idea except we're immune thanks to the belt.

Any of the anti-fear bursts for allies would have been helpful once or twice.
 
@Boney, would a talisman with three Runes of Warding fall under the Talisman slot or the Protective slot? I mean it's a talisman, but it's also just Plate Armour But Better.

Also, can robes enchanted with Aethyric Armour be dispelled like an item with Wings of Heaven?
 
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Andres said:
@Boney, would a talisman with three Runes of Warding fall under the Talisman slot or the Protective slot? I mean it's a talisman, but it's also just Plate Armour But Better.
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Protective. 'Talisman' in the slot sense doesn't necessary line up exactly with the Rune sense. And this doesn't really have any bearing on your question, but I don't like the Rune of Warding in general, because it used to be a magic resistance Rune and when they changed it to a ward save Rune, they gave it the most useless blurb that provided the least worldbuilding of any Rune I've ever seen, and that's saying something.

(in 6th Ward Saves were provided by the Rune of Spite, but that got changed to doing damage to the attacker in 8th, which fits the name better but doesn't really fit the blurb that was mostly unchanged. And IIRC one of the Belt's runes is based on the 8th Spite so I couldn't even use the 6th Spite to sidestep the Rune of Warding altogether)
 
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RwconHD said:
Could we have windherding be used to attempt a qhaysh choir of college magisters?
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This was one of the original questions regarding Windherding and the answer is 'theoretically possible, but you have to convince seven other wizards to be willing to risk being in range of eight simultaneous miscasts'.

So in practice, it's not going to happen.
 
RwconHD said:
Could we have windherding be used to attempt a qhaysh choir of college magisters?
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If we manage to teach windherding as a skill across a wide enough section of the Colleges that it becomes a self-sustaining specialty (perhaps a signature element of WEB-MAT if it outlives its founding membership), then it's likely that at some point there will be enough development of the skill to see that be considered more viable?
 
I think I'm in favour of giving Kragg a blank cheque to make something for us. At half his age he was making better enchanted items than Mathilde ever will, and for something that's supposed to keep Mathilde alive, that takes precedent over Mathilde making something herself.
 
infinityDivided said:
I got the impression from Mathilde's internal narration when she created her current set of robes that they weren't actually very well done (in particular she thought that the drake scales and the power-stone weren't being used nearly as well as they could have been), and that a robe made of better materials and (ideally) with a better roll would be a significant upgrade for that alone. Was that inaccurate?
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Boney said:
You spend some time consider the Helldrake scales that have been gathering dust ever since you acquired them on impulse in Barak Varr. The only mention of them you can find in your library is in the books on dragons, and even there more ink is spent on speculation on the nature of their relation to 'true' dragons than on their properties or inclinations. Still, the few paragraphs reveal to you that they're known primarily for being bred by the Elves of Naggaroth for war, and for such unbridled ferocity that their handlers are often unable to prevent them from attacking each other in the heat of battle. That gives you something to work with. Scales are, of course, a good fit for a component in defensive enchantment, but a nature of unflagging aggression is something you might be able to tap into for tirelessness.

[Drawing board: Learning, 10+28+5(Library: Enchantment)=43.]

That's the theory, anyway. You've come a long way since your first clumsy attempts to bind magic into permanent enchantment, and part of that is a healthy respect for planning ahead. The health of that respect begins to suffer quite a bit as every thaumaturgic equation runs right into a brick wall, as you try to put your instincts into numbers and run into mathematical insistence that what you're trying to do is impossible. Days evaporate in a blur of numbers and symbols and stacks of reference materials until you finally reach your limit and shove the stacks over in frustration.

Gentle shoves, of course, and onto rugs. Even if they are being obstinate, those books are far from cheap.

It isn't necessarily hubristic to bypass the preparations, you tell yourself. Putting magic to paper is a much less developed art than putting magic into reality. Every Magister of the Colleges is capable of a number of things that have no theoretical underpinnings proving them possible. There comes a time when a Wizard simply must put aside the books, start throwing magic around, and see what happens.

[In the workshop: 74+28+20(Room of Dawn and Dusk)+10(Enchanter)+5(Library: Enchantment)=137.]
[Integrating power stone: 48+28+20(Room of Utter Neutrality)+10(Enchanter)+2(Library: Power Stones)=108.]
[Integrating scales: 10+28+20(Room of Utter Neutrality)+10(Enchanter)+4(Library: Dragons, halved)=72.]

Success, it is said, requires no explanation. It may not be required but an explanation would be nice, you think to yourself as you're torn between pride and frustration that you couldn't even begin to put to paper why those painstaking equations were proven so thoroughly wrong by the end results. Guided by instinct and Ulgu, you've managed to rather literally weave your unique form of Aethyric Armour into your robes, anchored by the Helldrake scales you've turned into pauldrons and powered by the pearl of Crystal Mist, taking the appearance of a jewelled brooch though it's quite firmly fastened in place.

Truth be told, you're not entirely happy with the individual elements; the Crystal Mist seems to be reasonably integrated as a power source but its full potential as a lodestone of altered reality has a lot more to offer, and the scales are about as well-utilized as an atlas being used to pin down one corner of a map. But the overall effect is much greater than the sum of its parts: any mundane blade would shatter long before it could mar the weave of the robe, and a tap of the brooch extends the effect around your full body while filling your muscles with vigour. The length it lasts is frustratingly inconsistent, seeming to vary based on time of day, the level of light around you, and another variable you suspect to be the phase of the moon, but even under the worst of conditions it lasts fifteen minutes - about five times the duration of the spell cast conventionally. And you're quite pleased with the imposing touch the scales add to your silhouette.
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There's nothing here to suggest that the spell itself is weaker than when she casts it normally. Insofar as the robes were poorly-made, the main way that manifests appears to be "the inconsistent and unpredictable amount of time the enchantment lasts when activated". Remaking it gives us a chance to address that, but it's not going to protect us better.
 
From what I can see Armor of von Tarnus saves us actions by just giving us the best defense possible and helps in fights which we will inevitably get into for the entire quest.

How does Airship save actions or concretely allow which new ones?

I voted to break college favor and haven't kept up.
 
Verdom said:
From what I can see Armor of von Tarnus saves us actions by just giving us the best defense possible and helps in fights which we will inevitably get into for the entire quest.

How does Airship save actions or concretely allow which new ones?

I voted to break college favor and haven't kept up.
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The airship lets us bring cannons and allies with us, both of which are immensely good for the fights which we will inevitably get into for the entire quest.
 
I'm looking at The Empire 7e's magic items and there's some interesting ones there.

Sword of Fate
It's safe and legal to craft magic items under Morrslieb's light.

Armour of Tarnus
Shroud of Magnus
The Shroud of Magnus is strictly better than the Armour of Tarnus. It provides just as much protection against conventional attacks while giving extra protection against enemy spells. It's a talisman too, so it wouldn't interfere with Mathilde's magic.

Shield of the Gorgon
Apparently there's a bloodwrack medusa just kinda chilling in the middle of Araby.

The Crimson Amulet
Theoretically useful to Mathilde. The defensive bonus is neat, but the exceptional strength and agility just sounds like a really neat thing to have. It's always a good time to have the physical capabilities of Spider-Man.

Aldred's Casket of Sorcery
This is a very cool and powerful magic item. Lets you steal a wizard's magic powers and unleash them later. It's implied that it demagicated the Supreme Patriarch.

Banner of the Daemonslayer
It's safe and legal to craft magic items with daemon blood.
 
While Aethyric Armor won't stack with armor silk, the additional protection from the silk could come in handy if we ever fought someone capable of dispelling or otherwise deactivating the enchantment.
 
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