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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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Hey, can anyone tell me what the most popular votes are right now, because I do want to vote, but I really don't have the time to read 74 pages of discussion
 
MkZ said:
Considering the cost of "United Colleges have to work on one vessel for unspecified amount of time" and "Requires a support crew of wizards" - this requires so much logistics that it becomes a capability in itself.
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So it's a weapon that gets held back for situations that are worth using a support crew of wizards.
No different from any other enchanted doohickey.

Flying warship, or ten regular warships.
Well, considering that Empire has problems deploying the warships it has because of Marienburg, i could see spending ten times on a warship that can just go wherever, whenever, be worth it.
Not as a complete replacement, you still need large number of boats, but as a specialist unit.
 
DeleteWolf said:
Hey, can anyone tell me what the most popular votes are right now, because I do want to vote, but I really don't have the time to read 74 pages of discussion
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The most popular options are [] Plan: The Prismatic Wanderer, which asks for a flying warship for exploration and combat, [] Armor of von Tarnus, which asks for extremely good magic armor that does not impede spellcasting, [] Plan Pickle Requests mk IV, which asks for one medium-sized thing from each College (a mix of secrets, resources, enchantments, and assistance), [] Plan Tower of Doom! and Research!, which asks for a flying tower for research, exploration, and combat, and [] Elector-Countess, which asks for the Colleges to provide political support for Mathilde becoming an Elector-Countess if she is able to clear out a suitable area of ungoverned land from gribblies.
 
storryeater said:
That is how the initial sucky guns changed the face of wars, logistics, not by allowing armies to do something they couldn't. I see a very similar logistical increase with Orb manufacturing here, as long as AV gathering does not prove to be absurdly work intensive.
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I just don't see that logistics increase, honestly. Because in the end, you still need wizards.

Valmond said:
So it's a weapon that gets held back for situations that are worth using a support crew of wizards.
No different from any other enchanted doohickey.

Flying warship, or ten regular warships.
Well, considering that Empire has problems deploying the warships it has because of Marienburg, i could see spending ten times on a warship that can just go wherever, whenever, be worth it.
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Honestly, I don't know how big the cost difference is, @Boney would be the most reasonable to answer. But I think ten times is a lowest estimate, really. I'm pretty sure it's actually even higher.
And maintenance cost is definitely way way higher, because again it needs wizard crew instead of sailor crew.
 
MkZ said:
I just don't see that logistics increase, honestly. Because in the end, you still need wizards.
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I did not use it as a direct parallel, I used it more as an example of a common misconception of a weapon that changed the capabilities of war where the average person does not know the actual reason it did was logistics, not firepower.

Here, the difference is logistics too, just of a different kind. Orbs of sorcery may be more reusable than arrays, have fewer weakpoints or be easier to make with our techniques. Any of these would provide a major breakthough in the college aparatus even if it does not allow them to do anything new, because it allows them to deploy more stuff per battle.

Edit: They also may need wizards, but they may not necessarilly need super trained engineering wizards, but rather a few wizards capable of hunting apparitions plus a single conversion apparatus that can be built once and reused, which may also be an increase in logistical advantage because even if the effort is the same it takes less skilled work. Plus they can use both methods that use different people to increase production of weapons.
 
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storryeater said:
Let me try to understand if I get your argument straight. Something that you just claimed quinduples the value of a major strategic resource is not significant. When tides of war have changed with a 10% increase in efficiency in a single weapon type.

As long as gathering the Aethyric Vitae takes less than 4 times the effort of making the powerstones and array required to power stuff, the logistical breakthrough is insane. Wars are typically won by logistic and communication breakthroughs, not superweapons that alter the laws conflict. There is, like, one conflict I can think of that ended via superweapon that altered the laws of engangement (the nuke) and even then its kind of arguable if the nuke truly made a difference, and even if it did, it caused a less bloody conflict rather than changing who the victor would be.

Even guns, initially, were superweapons only because it was much, much easier to train a large amount of people in their use. Bows were far, far superior than the early guns, but you could have a gun regiment faster and easier than you had a single bowman. That is how the initial sucky guns changed the face of wars, logistics, not by allowing armies to do something they couldn't. I see a very similar logistical increase with Orb manufacturing here, as long as AV gathering does not prove to be absurdly work intensive.
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It got lost in the weeds across the full page of thread. I've never claimed that more morbs won't increase collegiate output of magical stuff. Especially if someone manages to gather AV in some more cost effective way. But it was a quantitative increase, not a qualitative one. Orbs of Sorcery are not necessary for pushing the boundaries of what is possible with enchantment and such because their effect can be achieved in other ways available to the colleges. That does not mean that fielding, as i said, three luminarks instead of two isn't going to be a big deal in its own way. But as far as pushing whats possible goes, the Orbs aren't going to do it. Unless "whats possible" as a question for you is "is fielding every battle altar we have" possible.

The thing that is actually earth shattering is that Winds don't behave how colleges believed they behave. Or rather that there is a state of winds that lets them behave other than they did. That is what will push the boundaries of what is possible.
 
[X] Elector-Countess

Ok, I'm sold! The flying fortress doesn't have any momentum anyway and I'm much less excited about a flying ship than a flying fortress.

Just imagine the aesthetics of the Forest of Shadows being ruled by a Grey Wizard Elector-Count (pretty terrifying in itself). Then add the fact that the populace is composed of the followers of our patron god's daughter and that our Eonir neighours have a vested interest in us pacifying the region, gaining another ally in the region/empire themselves and increasing the flow of magic into Laurelorn as we set up more and more waystones.

Still approval-voting flying castle plans :
[X] Plan Tower of Doom! and Research!
[X] Mathilde's Flying Circus Knightship MK 2

DeleteWolf said:
Hey, can anyone tell me what the most popular votes are right now, because I do want to vote, but I really don't have the time to read 74 pages of discussion
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You can click the "New tally" button to see the count for the various options. It's situated at the bottom-ish left of the page.
 
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DeleteWolf said:
Hey, can anyone tell me what the most popular votes are right now, because I do want to vote, but I really don't have the time to read 74 pages of discussion
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The big fork right now is:
- do you want some big flying thing which specs Mathilde towards road trips?
- do you want to set the stage for an action-packed arc about liberating nexuses?
- do you just want some generic flexible shiny/shinies?
 
pucflek said:
It got lost in the weeds across the full page of thread. I've never claimed that more morbs won't increase collegiate output of magical stuff. Especially if someone manages to gather AV in some more cost effective way. But it was a quantitative increase, not a qualitative one. Orbs of Sorcery are not necessary for pushing the boundaries of what is possible with enchantment and such because their effect can be achieved in other ways available to the colleges. That does not mean that fielding, as i said, three luminarks instead of two isn't going to be a big deal in its own way. But as far as pushing whats possible goes, the Orbs aren't going to do it. Unless "whats possible" as a question for you is "is fielding every battle altar we have" possible.

The thing that is actually earth shattering is that Winds don't behave how colleges believed they behave. Or rather that there is a state of winds that lets them behave other than they did. That is what will push the boundaries of what is possible.
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Ahhh, fair enough, I quite agree with that assessment actually.

Although I do believe this breakthrough is less on "fielding one more luminark" tier and more "fielding ALL the luminarks because now the luminarks are the bottleneck not the resources powering them" tier.
 
picklepikkl said:
I think some wires have gotten crossed.

This option doesn't give up our ownership stakes in the EIC itself, it simply tells the Hochlander "I am too busy to run the spy network side of things, you are now handling it for me." The things you're concerned about are not issues that would arise from taking this choice -- the only reason to keep the EIC half-action is if we think we need Mathilde to still be involved in the day-to-day intel work, not just a silent partner in the background. Which is a valid position to hold, especially depending on what we do in the future! But I think you're getting worried about something nobody is actually advocating.

We've only had her as an apprentice for five turns, 2.5 years. She spent 2.5-3 years as a Junior Apprentice, so the "normal" length of apprenticeship would have her with us for about ten more turns (ending around T53/T54), though we can push her out of the nest a little sooner if we think she's ready, which I suspect we will.

We don't have a hard age for Wilhelmina but I think she's probably in her fifties-sixties?
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Thanks for the info.

And the spy network reports is how Mat (or at least I) have been keeping track of the EIC. Because it reports on the Empire, and where it is present, including itself. Mat being involved in that is things working as intended. I trust the Hochlander... but Mat is a Grey LM. Not checking up on him and the EIC herself is just bad tradecraft. Because they are trusted, she only needs to check. But she still needs to check. Or someone else, like Elke does. Someone trusted by Roswita and the Bursar. (and Mat).

Because if something goes wrong in her Org, Mat will be blamed and responsible for it. Spending no AP on the EIC means spending no real work time on the EIC. With what the EIC is and how it came to be? I am not comfortable with that, unless someone else everyone involved trusts, is capable and responsible enough takes that burden/duty/privilege from us.

The Hochlander may be qualified in some respects... but not all of them. I trust him to do this best, and do his job. I don't trust him enough to give him EIC stewardship equivalence and start treating that trade monster of our own making like our Knightly Lands. Not because I fear betrayal, but because some enemies out there are beyond him.

The lands were picked exactly because they are fine when neglected. The EIC is not. It takes constant effort to keep it helpful, not hurtful to the Empire and Stirland. That we can hand off much of that effort to others (like Wilhelmina and the Hochlander) is nice. But we cannot fully abandon the monster we made, without finding a worthy successor. And yes, not spending some time on it, every year, is abandoning it. Even if only for a few months/years.
 
Power stones are relatively cheap resource for the colleges (if going by CF cost).
AV is, while valuable, also renewable resource that i could see magisters actively hunting down to exchange for CF (or just gold, for the no vow of powerty wizards).

The biggest question mark is how quickly colleges can gather AV, but provided that this is not a huge hurdle, they may be increasing output by order of magnitude or more in whatever arbitrary unit the power stone usage for battle altars and such would be counted as.

It's not a change that happens over night, but it is one that is going to happen.
Again, assuming that AV bottleneck does not become a giant issue.

Also, Orbs of Sorcery are a permanent resource.
College's do not use them up (or have not so far, maybe they can be consumables in certain situations that are now available).
So every new orb of sorcery is now a permanent resource to use going forward.
Overtime the college's will double, triple, quadruple, and more, their ability to power certain types of magical weapons, vehicles, rituals, or whatever.
 
primemountain said:
Thanks for the info.

And the spy network reports is how Mat (or at least I) have been keeping track of the EIC. Because it reports on the Empire, and where it is present, including itself. Mat being involved in that is things working as intended. I trust the Hochlander... but Mat is a Grey LM. Not checking up on him and the EIC herself is just bad tradecraft. Because they are trusted, she only needs to check. But she still needs to check. Or someone else, like Elke does. Someone trusted by Roswita and the Bursar. (and Mat).

Because if something goes wrong in her Org, Mat will be blamed and responsible for it. Spending no AP on the EIC means spending no real work time on the EIC. With what the EIC is and how it came to be? I am not comfortable with that, unless someone else everyone involved trusts, is capable and responsible enough takes that burden/duty/privilege from us.

The Hochlander may be qualified in some respects... but not all of them. I trust him to do this best, and do his job. I don't trust him enough to give him EIC stewardship equivalence and start treating that trade monster of our own making like our Knightly Lands. Not because I fear betrayal, but because some enemies out there are beyond him.

The lands were picked exactly because they are fine when neglected. The EIC is not. It takes constant effort to keep it helpful, not hurtful to the Empire and Stirland. That we can hand off much of that effort to others (like Wilhelmina and the Hochlander) is nice. But we cannot fully abandon the monster we made, without finding a worthy successor. And yes, not spending some time on it, every year, is abandoning it. Even if only for a few months/years.
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We were offered divesting the spy network aspects of the EIC before and it wasn't a concern, Wilhemina is competent on her own when it comes to just doing no harm, all the more so with the Hochalander to watch her back.
 
Nerdasaurus Rex said:
I've always viewed it as Algard's opinion that an array of power stones is better, but Algard is a master enchanter. Getting the output of an Orb from an array of power stones is probably quite easy for him. Getting a similar output for another enchanter is probably trickier, and there's all sorts of issues such as efficiency or preventing the system from overloading that adds complexity that most people wouldn't want to deal with.

So yes, in optimal conditions, in the hands of a skilled enchanter, there's probably no difference. But wizards don't always get to operate in optimal conditions, and an Orb is easier and more convenient if you have one.
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There could also be an element of pragmatism influencing his opinion. The colleges could not make more OoS. The colleges could make power stone arrays. Make do with what you have.
For instance, I don't think there are any power stone array powered luminarks.
 
Much as I think that Elector-Countess is something we would be great at, we've been kicking the Elfcation can down the road for ages now.

I want to pal around with the Shadow Warriors and make some connections, and have this airship constructed, so that when we finally do knock down some province it's with the confidence only someone sitting on top of a magical Thunderbarge (with more or less the full might of the Ordertide behind them) can have.

It's not like the Schattenwald is going to suddenly resolve itself after ages of being Like That.
 
Also, when it comes to 1 flying warship vs many regular warships, remember that gravity is a harsh mistress. Well, Warhammer has a lot of forces able to counteract that to some degree, but absent the involvement of such forces, a flying warship can literally rain down plain rocks, and they'll be more effective and have more chance to actually reach the target than any upwards-pointed cannon.
 
Lammen Gorthaur said:
Much as I think that Elector-Countess is something we would be great at, we've been kicking the Elfcation can down the road for ages now.

I want to pal around with the Shadow Warriors and make some connections, and have this airship constructed, so that when we finally do knock down some province it's with the confidence only someone sitting on top of a magical Thunderbarge (with more or less the full might of the Ordertide behind them) can have.

It's not like the Schattenwald is going to suddenly resolve itself after ages of being Like That.
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I think the question is would it be feasible to get a claim to become Elector Countess of a new province without using this boon on it.

@Boney would this be something a great deed could also be used for to make a claim?
 
thamuzz said:
There could also be an element of pragmatism influencing his opinion.
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Or maybe even just sour grapes. "It's okay I don't have a personal Orb of Sorcery for my enchantment research. I didn't want one anyway! And, and, if you think about it, they're really just a bunch of powerstones thrown together..."

(this is not a serious opinion on whether Algard is secretly tsundere for Orbs)
 
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Re: why the Colleges haven't made flying ships, I think one big factor is that we know the Celestials (the ones most suited to that) prefer to lean in on the mystical side, the divinations.

Flying ships are very cool, but from a certain point of view, it makes more sense to spend the time and wizard-power you'd use on a big enchantment on the long-term strategic well-being of the Empire by focusing on what their enemies are going to do to counter that.
 
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picklepikkl said:
without leaning too heavily on the "ooo it's a cool magical doodad that's completely unable to be equalled" trope that gets dumped on the Warhammer setting like someone broke the cap on their salt shaker.
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I wonder if there's an in-setting explanation for this. We know that time around the Coming of Chaos went all wibbly wobbly, so perhaps one-off magical superweapons occurred far more frequently than should ever be reasonable. Or maybe one-off magical superweapons tended to survive timelines straightening out more than other events/things due to having lots of magical mojo invested in them. And even after time got back to normal, echoes of whatever-it-was still affect the setting.

Anyways, have a vote tally.
Adhoc vote count started by Derpmind on Jan 29, 2025 at 9:50 AM, finished with 1891 posts and 239 votes.
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Parabola said:
Re: why the Colleges haven't made flying ships, I think one big factor is that we know the Celestials (the ones most suited to that) prefer to lean in on the mystical side, the divinations.

Flying ships are very cool, but from a certain point of view, it makes more sense to spend the time and wizard-power you'd use on a big enchantment on the long-term strategic well-being of the Empire to focus on what their enemies are going to do to counter that.
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And then there's Hubert.
Imagine how he would have spent his time if one of the career options given to him at the college was "Air Captain", instead of half a dozen types of diviners.
 
AGFarb said:
I think the question is would it be feasible to get a claim to become Elector Countess of a new province without using this boon on it.

@Boney would this be something a great deed could also be used for to make a claim?
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I think it's generally something already controlling a chunk of land worth calling a province is the biggest factor in. I think the colleges would generally be supportive of that kind of claim (though more in a casual approval of a wizard elector than the level of support we could buy here) and the hardest part would be getting enough force together to actually take and hold that much land without the various generals you've delegated to deciding that actually they should be the ones in charge rather than you. After all, it's not a coup if you aren't in charge yet.
 
Derpmind said:
I wonder if there's an in-setting explanation for this. We know that time around the Coming of Chaos went all wibbly wobbly, so perhaps one-off magical superweapons occurred far more frequently than should ever be reasonable. Or maybe one-off magical superweapons tended to survive timelines straightening out more than other events/things due to having lots of magical mojo invested in them. And even after time got back to normal, echoes of whatever-it-was still affect the setting.
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Well we know warpstone works like that, like a super-serum in comic books. Sometimes it works miracles, but if you try to replicate it you get horrors again.
 
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