Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest
- Thread starter Boney
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NexusEye
Aspiring God
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Wait a minute Morgrim? Isn't he the Ancestor-God of Engineering while the Ancestor-God of Runesmithing is Thungni, a completely different individual? Is this some one off typo where the rest of the text makes sense or is the "Clan of Morgrim" thing and association with Morgrim mentioned multiple times throughout the text on different pages? Because if so what the hell, what is going on here, I genuinely don't understand why they would associate the Runesmith Clans with anyone other than Thungni, let alone Morgrim of all people, that should be an Engineering Guilds thing. It's just, just, just… I think my brain is broken now.
[X] Orb Reveal (NEW-ish)
[X] Lord Seilph, the Mystic (NEW)
[X] Karak Vlag books (NEW)
[X] Pan's Treehouse (NEW)
[X] Silk (NEW)
[X] Lord Seilph, the Mystic (NEW)
[X] Karak Vlag books (NEW)
[X] Pan's Treehouse (NEW)
[X] Silk (NEW)
Teclis did it. Presumably to empower the currently reigning Supreme Patriarch, both against internal challengers to his authority and external challengers to the right of Wizards to continue existing, and to make it necessary for them to stick to the power structure he laid down since deviating from it would cost them that significant benefit.
Runesmiths are medium-key wizards. Like, I've looked at a bunch of dwarf stuff this past few weeks and runesmiths don't just make magic items, they themselves seem to have magic powers, at least to some extent. By far the most obvious expression of that is the fact that they can make magic items, but there's other stuff too.
First is the literary quotes which @Blackout collected here.
Second is this artwork from Dwarfs 8e and the Dwarf Player's Guide:
Third is the lore and game mechanics of army books, such as Dwarfs 8e and Forces of Fantasy.
To break down this quote, it isn't saying that runesmiths use runes to dispel spells, it's saying runesmiths use their runesmithing gifts to dispel spells, and that they sometimes use talismans to make that dispelling stronger. And then after that, it says that a runesmith makes their unit's weapons light up on fire and make them armour-piercing, not as a result of runes or anything, but because of an inherent ability of theirs. DPG's Forgefire talent calls you a "living battery of runic power".
Runesmiths have inherent magical ability. It's not in the same way as wizards of other species, but they have it. It makes their eyes glow, they activate magical effects with incantations, they splinter rock with trails of light and cause runic grimoires to glow, they have weapon-fire magic auras, and they can dispel spells the same way they can grab a fistful of Winds of Magic and shove it into an object.
@Boney how wizardy are runesmiths in Divided Loyalties?
You're touching on a very fundamental conflict between the lore and the game. The lore says that a Runesmith is a craftsman, which fits very neatly into Dwarven lore and society and culture and whatnot. But it makes no sense for that person to be on a battlefield, and the game wants you to pay thirty-five dollars* for the pewter privilege. It used to be that a Runesmith was just a Thane with worse combat stats but a higher Rune budget, and that wasn't a very interesting niche. So at first they introduced the Anvil of Doom as a way to make a Runesmith more wizard-y without outright breaching the existing lore - oh, it's not the Runelord doing magic, it's this Runic device he prepared earlier that's doing all the work and he needs to be on hand to operate it. But that only helps the people that spent 55 on that specific model, why should I bring a Runelord? Why should I play a Runepriest in Age of Reckoning? Why should I bring a Runesmith in Total Warhammer?
None of those problems are my problems, so I don't see any need to make Runesmiths more wizardy, so I haven't.
* Prices from the early aughts, I guarantee you they've gone up since then.
There seem to have been various effort over the years to cull the ranks of the Ancestor Gods. Gazul spending a lot of time trapped in the 1e Dimension is the most obvious manifestation, but there's also a lot of points you can find where things like smelting got credited to Grungni or siege weapons to Grimnir, or people trying to conflate Morgrim with Smednir or Thungni. That's my guess for what's happening here.
Mathilde Van Hal, Elector Countess of Stirland
New
Night
Widow Null
- Location
- Hoff
I am still trying to decide what, exactly, would actually change if we substituted Johann for Pan. I am not sure anything would.
Anyways, the two I'm still sure I'm doing are both very different from our usual Mathilde, though also in very different ways. This one? Because Mathilde didn't go to Eight Peaks, she did not come to hate Sigmar, and most importantly she doesn't have the Hat.
Mathilde Van Hal, Elector Countess of Stirland
A long time coming.
Abelhelm Van Hal fell at the siege of Drakenhof, but while he hovered at death's door, the sound of cannon echoed. In the town of Drakenhof, and against Castle Drak itself. On the fourth day, as the keep of the castle crumbled and the damned legacy of both von Drak and von Carstein went with it, he opened his eyes. On the fifth day, he stood and heard the report of the things his Spymistress had done in his name. And Abelhelm Van Hal found them good. It would be a long time before he took to the field in person again, even with the healing of Sigmar's Grace. But that did not concern him overmuch. His Marshal was capable enough for the day to day, and he'd located a very good subordinate to act as his warlord.
When Sylvania exploded into violence between vampire factions, the first task was to keep Drakenhof secure. The throne vacated by the von Carsteins must remain empty. So he sent his best subordinate to see it done, and sent another subordinate to Altdorf to ensure she would not be interrupted. Mathilde Weber would not learn the truth for many a year. One day the letters from her mysterious masters simply stopped coming.
The "College of Necromancy" was an unpleasant surprise, but Stirland was more ready than it looked. It was a battle of systems, logistics pitted against each other more than tactics, but Wilhemina and Mathilde saw Abelheim through. And when Mathilde once again had to assume the task of assaulting a fortified town and keep, she handled it with the same vicious flair for the use of black powder. Of Teufelheim it is said that not a stone remained upon a stone, and even a master vampire finds it hard to cope with a dozen cannonballs. The loss of Gustav was a blow as his outriders swept up and down the gunline dealing with necromantic nuisances of various sizes. But Abelhelm van Hal had the general he wanted, and invited the Emperor's Spymaster to send him a new spymaster instead. The Dämmerlichtreiter would serve as Stirland's marshal. She may have accidentally blurted "I love you" rather than "I accept", according to her friends. Certainly the marriage and the ceremony confirming her new appointment came very close together.
The purgation of Sylvania was long and grinding. Every mound was searched and its dead laid to rest or burned in fires hot enough to incinerate bone. Every town and village investigated. Sylvanians are hard to convince on most Imperial gods, but a breakthrough of sorts sees temples raised to older ones as well and Morr has certainly found His faithful. It is common practice, as the artillery park of Stirland grows to meet the needs of its campaigns, to engrave the symbols of Sigmar and Morr upon every shot made in Wurtbad's foundries, and every cannon purchased from Nuln. No god has yet claimed dominion over black powder, but it might yet happen even if they don't mean it to. Stirland's neighbors are starting to get a bit nervous, and talk about reinforcing their fortifications maybe. That's an awful lot of cannon.
Sylvania fights back with the strength of the damned. For every vampire killed, another takes its place. But for every vampire killed, the next one is weaker, a few less corpses to command, a few less powers at its disposal, a few less gold coins to spend. Stirland may grind Sylvania slowly, but it grinds it fine. Five years pass. Ten. No town in Sylvania answers to an inhuman master. The monsters are banished to the wilds.
Mannfred von Carstein emerges from Hel Fenn.
Abelhelm Van Hal falls the second time.
His best friend, who carries a half-dozen pistols, very calmly and very carefully turns Mannfred's head to pulp with two shots.
Mannfred gets up.
Abelhelm's wife, enraged beyond words, melts the shape of an upraised Runefang's shadow into Mannfred's body, and hacks him to bits. The parts of his body will join their sire's under the Grand Cathedral.
It took one Van Hal to doom Sylvania. It took two Van Hals to redeem it.
Of Abelheim's three children, two turn up to the Elector's Meet to contest the right of inheritence. One of them fails to impress, intimidated into silence by the mere presence of the newly minted Lord Magister of the Gray Order. The other swiftly seeks accord; Mathilde will need an heir as well, and in all her campaigning, there was never enough time. After some consideration, the newest Elector Countess, and the first mage named to the post (because no one wanted to find out what she'd do with all those cannon and a fanatically loyal Army of Stirland at her back), accepts. Rosawita Van Hal has rough edges, but she can be taught.
Many in the Empire wonder what they will do when the Van Hals are convinced Sylvania has been secured. Averland lives in terror of the slights they have inflicted in the past. What would Mathilde Van Hal be, without a war? Where will she seek another? Some take heart in the fitful support Stirland offers to the reclaimation of the Eight Peaks, seeing it as the next likely theater. Perhaps it will be.
But others whisper of a greater ambition. Abhorash and W'Soran's followers trouble the Empire, but in lesser ways usually. It is the Lahmians who are forever and everywhere a problem. And it is the Lahmians this whispered ambition targets: To march on the Silver Pinnacle and see it scourged as thoroughly as Sylvania was. After all, nobody really knows what will happen if you kill the first vampire...
Anyways, the two I'm still sure I'm doing are both very different from our usual Mathilde, though also in very different ways. This one? Because Mathilde didn't go to Eight Peaks, she did not come to hate Sigmar, and most importantly she doesn't have the Hat.
Mathilde Van Hal, Elector Countess of Stirland
A long time coming.
Abelhelm Van Hal fell at the siege of Drakenhof, but while he hovered at death's door, the sound of cannon echoed. In the town of Drakenhof, and against Castle Drak itself. On the fourth day, as the keep of the castle crumbled and the damned legacy of both von Drak and von Carstein went with it, he opened his eyes. On the fifth day, he stood and heard the report of the things his Spymistress had done in his name. And Abelhelm Van Hal found them good. It would be a long time before he took to the field in person again, even with the healing of Sigmar's Grace. But that did not concern him overmuch. His Marshal was capable enough for the day to day, and he'd located a very good subordinate to act as his warlord.
When Sylvania exploded into violence between vampire factions, the first task was to keep Drakenhof secure. The throne vacated by the von Carsteins must remain empty. So he sent his best subordinate to see it done, and sent another subordinate to Altdorf to ensure she would not be interrupted. Mathilde Weber would not learn the truth for many a year. One day the letters from her mysterious masters simply stopped coming.
The "College of Necromancy" was an unpleasant surprise, but Stirland was more ready than it looked. It was a battle of systems, logistics pitted against each other more than tactics, but Wilhemina and Mathilde saw Abelheim through. And when Mathilde once again had to assume the task of assaulting a fortified town and keep, she handled it with the same vicious flair for the use of black powder. Of Teufelheim it is said that not a stone remained upon a stone, and even a master vampire finds it hard to cope with a dozen cannonballs. The loss of Gustav was a blow as his outriders swept up and down the gunline dealing with necromantic nuisances of various sizes. But Abelhelm van Hal had the general he wanted, and invited the Emperor's Spymaster to send him a new spymaster instead. The Dämmerlichtreiter would serve as Stirland's marshal. She may have accidentally blurted "I love you" rather than "I accept", according to her friends. Certainly the marriage and the ceremony confirming her new appointment came very close together.
The purgation of Sylvania was long and grinding. Every mound was searched and its dead laid to rest or burned in fires hot enough to incinerate bone. Every town and village investigated. Sylvanians are hard to convince on most Imperial gods, but a breakthrough of sorts sees temples raised to older ones as well and Morr has certainly found His faithful. It is common practice, as the artillery park of Stirland grows to meet the needs of its campaigns, to engrave the symbols of Sigmar and Morr upon every shot made in Wurtbad's foundries, and every cannon purchased from Nuln. No god has yet claimed dominion over black powder, but it might yet happen even if they don't mean it to. Stirland's neighbors are starting to get a bit nervous, and talk about reinforcing their fortifications maybe. That's an awful lot of cannon.
Sylvania fights back with the strength of the damned. For every vampire killed, another takes its place. But for every vampire killed, the next one is weaker, a few less corpses to command, a few less powers at its disposal, a few less gold coins to spend. Stirland may grind Sylvania slowly, but it grinds it fine. Five years pass. Ten. No town in Sylvania answers to an inhuman master. The monsters are banished to the wilds.
Mannfred von Carstein emerges from Hel Fenn.
Abelhelm Van Hal falls the second time.
His best friend, who carries a half-dozen pistols, very calmly and very carefully turns Mannfred's head to pulp with two shots.
Mannfred gets up.
Abelhelm's wife, enraged beyond words, melts the shape of an upraised Runefang's shadow into Mannfred's body, and hacks him to bits. The parts of his body will join their sire's under the Grand Cathedral.
It took one Van Hal to doom Sylvania. It took two Van Hals to redeem it.
Of Abelheim's three children, two turn up to the Elector's Meet to contest the right of inheritence. One of them fails to impress, intimidated into silence by the mere presence of the newly minted Lord Magister of the Gray Order. The other swiftly seeks accord; Mathilde will need an heir as well, and in all her campaigning, there was never enough time. After some consideration, the newest Elector Countess, and the first mage named to the post (because no one wanted to find out what she'd do with all those cannon and a fanatically loyal Army of Stirland at her back), accepts. Rosawita Van Hal has rough edges, but she can be taught.
Many in the Empire wonder what they will do when the Van Hals are convinced Sylvania has been secured. Averland lives in terror of the slights they have inflicted in the past. What would Mathilde Van Hal be, without a war? Where will she seek another? Some take heart in the fitful support Stirland offers to the reclaimation of the Eight Peaks, seeing it as the next likely theater. Perhaps it will be.
But others whisper of a greater ambition. Abhorash and W'Soran's followers trouble the Empire, but in lesser ways usually. It is the Lahmians who are forever and everywhere a problem. And it is the Lahmians this whispered ambition targets: To march on the Silver Pinnacle and see it scourged as thoroughly as Sylvania was. After all, nobody really knows what will happen if you kill the first vampire...
NexusEye
Aspiring God
- Pronouns
- She/Her
I can kinda see crediting someone else with the invention of smelting and to a lesser extent the invention of siege weapons, Dwarves might have had smelting before Smednir and Smednir merely dramatically advanced the technological level of it and made Dwarves the master of smelting they are today, basic smelting isn't something you need an Ancestor-God to invent, the Empire might have had it gifted to them by the Dwarves but there were plenty of other older human civilizations with metals and smelting which presumably didn't get it from the Dwarves and presumably invented it themselves or inherited the technology from their predecessors, they just weren't nearly as high quality as Dwarven work. And basic siege weapons like a battering ram doesn't take much ingenuity, you could maybe say someone else like Grimnir invented the first of those and Morgrim later came along and built all the advanced stuff like grudge-throwers and bolt-throwers. But substituting Morgrim for Thungni? If you're going to cull Thungni and credit someone else for inventing Runes credit Grungni, he canonically can do Runesmithing too and he crafted the greatest Rune of all time, the Rune of Eternity. It doesn't make any sense but I guess that's GW for you, making utterly illogical story, gameplay, and business decisions since 1975, how they haven't managed to bankrupt themselves with their nonsense is a genuine mystery to me.
Voikirium
SV's Estalia Guy
- Location
- Ruritania Illinois
- Pronouns
- He/Him
I'm sorry, I'm afraid I may have monkey pawed Dwarf players
Chlof
Her Ladyship
- Pronouns
- She/Her
If you're working off AUD and have the practically mandatory 20% discount all third party retailers here have, then it's actually pretty close. It was like $15 cheaper when it was sold under the AoS label a year earlier though so they still get no points from me, grumble grumble.
Now I want to see some really fancy bottle in the shape of a rune.
*grumble*That's umgi talk. A real dawi would spend 200 years practicing a single brewing recipe until he never gets it wrong.*grumble*
Also the one I was thinking about was metal in a blister pack.
NexusEye
Aspiring God
- Pronouns
- She/Her
I think I found a typo,
The sentence as it is now contains a grammatical error, it presumably should be either
or
Probably the latter, Wikipedia tells me bog iron can be found in both bogs and swamps despite its name and they're different types of wetland so "wetlands" is probably the proper correction.
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- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
[X] Orb Reveal
[X] Pan's Treehouse
[X] Silk
[X] Karak Vlag books
[X] Lord Seilph, the Mystic
[X] Skull River Ambush
[X] Pan's Treehouse
[X] Silk
[X] Karak Vlag books
[X] Lord Seilph, the Mystic
[X] Skull River Ambush
It probably wouldn't change a huge amount in the big picture. We probably wouldn't have a giant tree in eight peaks. We probably would have gone on more adventures with Johann. The relationship would have a different vibe though. It probably would be a bit less comfy and a bit more adventurous. Imo at least. Maybe they'd have tried out the carstein's hidden room with the silk sheets
It probably wouldn't change a huge amount in the big picture. We probably wouldn't have a giant tree in eight peaks. We probably would have gone on more adventures with Johann. The relationship would have a different vibe though. It probably would be a bit less comfy and a bit more adventurous. Imo at least. Maybe they'd have tried out the carstein's hidden room with the silk sheets
That reminds me of something I had meant to post but then forgot:
*Silk update rolls around*
Mathilde: Finally! Glad you got the silk working Francisco. At one point I considered taking Vlad's sheets off his bed and using those.
Francisco: *quiet panicking at Mathy being pissed at him*
pucflek
Verified simpleton
- Location
- Czech Republic
[X] Lord Seilph, the Mystic
[X] Orb Reveal
[X] Pan's Treehouse
[X] Silk
Not only did they steal wizard-dad, but also the potential for our own Kislev-vortex-equivalent. Perfidiousalbion Ulthuan
[X] Orb Reveal
[X] Pan's Treehouse
[X] Silk
Its pretty funny when you think about it because Algard's put this bug in our brain that's been resonating in the quest about (not just elves, Mathilde passed this bug onto Belegar after all) Elves not telling Colleges everything because they hoard magic for themselves, but at least one somewhat plausible explanation for that is Teclis just not having the time/too much redtape/being given the big boy chair so that he would not implement magical infrastructure mucking about with waystone network the way he very well may have in Altdorf. (And it is probably the nexuses because iirc you said there is a lot of them and the city is inherently magical. The effect Supreme Patriarch has on a city could be explainable by tradition wearing grooves, but its too soon for that so yeah).
Not only did they steal wizard-dad, but also the potential for our own Kislev-vortex-equivalent. Perfidious
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Adrian XXIV
Average User, from Poland
- Location
- Poland
- Pronouns
- He/Him
I realized something about "Mathilde Angrund" AU.
Given that Warhammer Fantasy is put in times, where one of goals of such marriages is "formalizing alliances", this means that Bond between Empire & Karaz Ankor would be tighter than ever
Given that Warhammer Fantasy is put in times, where one of goals of such marriages is "formalizing alliances", this means that Bond between Empire & Karaz Ankor would be tighter than ever
[X] Orb Reveal
[X] Silk
[X] Lord Seilph, the Mystic
[X] Reading on Nehekhara
[X] Silk
[X] Lord Seilph, the Mystic
[X] Reading on Nehekhara
- Location
- Greece
Speaking of Belegar, I wonder how Dawi reconcile the fact that some Dawi are greater than some of their ancestors in achievement.
Like, for example, Belegar was the one that reconquered the K8P, not his father or grandfather. Yes, it was partially thanks to Mathilde, but I think that giving all the credit or even most of the credit to her is still unfair. Even in canon, from what I understand, it was Belegar that managed to create a semi permanent foothold, not his ancestors.
And there are prolly even more clear cut examples than that like the engineers cult.
How do Dawi reconcile that? Better circumstances? "He could only do it because his ancestors did all the groundwork"? Just not thinking about this too hard?
Just an idle curiosity I had recently and thought it would be nice to talk about.
Like, for example, Belegar was the one that reconquered the K8P, not his father or grandfather. Yes, it was partially thanks to Mathilde, but I think that giving all the credit or even most of the credit to her is still unfair. Even in canon, from what I understand, it was Belegar that managed to create a semi permanent foothold, not his ancestors.
And there are prolly even more clear cut examples than that like the engineers cult.
How do Dawi reconcile that? Better circumstances? "He could only do it because his ancestors did all the groundwork"? Just not thinking about this too hard?
Just an idle curiosity I had recently and thought it would be nice to talk about.
That is easy, they do not. Such and Such ancestor lived though hard times and if they had not persevered in the face of them you would not be alive to have your achievements you whippersnapper. Ancestors get to claim all the achievements of their descendants and leave them all the shame.
It works because you can do the same! Just make sure to make a kid or two or else even if you do succeed you doom your line and your clan!
But who made Matheld?
Do they declare her entire line Dawi?
Or does the High King adopt her so that he gets to save face and claim that they retroactively claim that clan Ullek and thus Karaz Karak sent help?
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