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The Heir of the Dragon: A Rhaenyra Targaryen Quest

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Susano said:
To what end goal? Given her positions, conflict seems inevitable down the road, and we don't actually gain anything from delaying it. Whereas now we can get a bit of a stress reduction, which is nice. Even in pure game terms it's something minor vs, well, probably nothing.
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I think there's real value in delaying conflict until after we're back in the capital, instead of giving her a full year to get up to shenanigans when we can't even hear about any of it.
 
And yeah the Velaryons taking so long to basically just say no Laenor can't go on the progress is telling. Rhaenys was probably all for it from Rhaenyra again offering a olive branch to them but Corlys again spitting at Rhaenyra. Like there was implications for the request of a possible marriage between Laenor and Rhaenyra. Actually curious what exactly is going on with the Velaryons. Especially Corlys to just not accept.
 
Feels like having a hostile stepmother actively trying to snub you, spread rumors about you, and work against you, would give Rhaenyra more Stress than any she would lose by blowing up at Johanna.

Also it just seems like a waste of bonding attempts and the actions in this turn to pull the Westerling relations into a complete nosedive.
 
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If we are going to tell Johanna? I would at least recommend doing it after the progress and when she isn't pregnant. Like we really don't want her scheming while we are away from the capital.
 
[X] Give your support to one the names she suggested
-[X] Aelora
[X] Ask how her cats are doing

Look, being a Ruler Is going to be STRESSING
There Is no escaping that

And putting us in Johanna's Bad Looks out of Self satisfaction Is Oh Too Damaging

We want to have a good, or at least cordial, relationship with her by the Time her children are born and Lords start plotting

Our Rhaenyra Is already better than canon regarding control over her impulses. And no, wanting to be a Knight isn'g an impulse but a Dream
 
Teen Spirit said:
Johanna was trying to be friendly still it seemed, despite the obvious complications her pregnancy now poised to your relationship.

"I hope it's a girl," she said as she rubbed her belly. "I want my first to be someone I can understand. Someone who can wear my mother's jewelry and knit with me."
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Looking at this passage (and ignorant the flagrant homophobia like a nostalgic Harry Potter fan), I get the feeling that one of the reasons why Johanna hopes she gets a girl might be because that's the best way to avoid a succession crisis?

Like, Johanna is clearly somewhat traditionalist (she's tied to religious homophobia and wants to pass on her mother's things to her daughter) and as such I wouldn't be surprised if she felt that the Iron Throne should stay a king's seat. But at the same time she also doesn't show any signs of being a power-hungry idiot and recognizes that a succession crisis would be a terrible thing for everyone involved.

The queen bearing only daughters is the easiest way to square that circle. Johanna wouldn't be 'forced' to choose between a succession crisis and the 'rightful' crown prince (who is also her child) if no such prince is born.

Granted, given her rampant homophobia she will likely recant her support once Rhaenyra's relationship with Alicent comes to light.

[X] Talk about what will happen if she has a boy, matters of sucession and such.

Which is why I want her to chisel out her opinions now, and not later when her opinion of Rhaenyra will be lower.
 
Susano said:
To what end goal? Given her positions, conflict seems inevitable down the road, and we don't actually gain anything from delaying it. Whereas now we can get a bit of a stress reduction, which is nice. Even in pure game terms it's something minor vs, well, probably nothing.
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The current goal is to not have an active enemy in King's Landing right as we are about to spend a full year outside of it. Even if an enemy is inevitable, preventing them from acting as an enemy for as long as possible is still a huge win.

Zimmerwald1915 said:
Pretty sure Johanna will be scheming regardless.
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She's seemed perfectly pleasant with us, other than the Jeyne topic. Even saying that she hopes she has a daughter, regardless of how much better a son would be politically.
While she will obviously do passive scheming that all nobles do, she has no reason to actively try to slander us or take apart our support base, or a dozen other antagonistic things to damage Rhaenyra.
 
[X] Ask how her cats are doing

[X] Give your support to one the names she suggested
-[X] Daena

Can we not immediately make her an enemy? Her views are shitty... but fuck.

To me canon Rhaenyra's biggest mistake was not being a sister to her siblings, and this could easily result in Joanna deciding we shouldn't have access to them.
 
The point is to hold off on outright antagonizing Johanna for as long as possible. The longer Johanna thinks she and Rhaenyra are on the same page the longer she's not actively undermining us.

While conflict seems inevitable, I do not believe Johanna has yet fully groked there will likely be a succession crisis, and possibly will not until her son starts growing up in Rhaenyras shadow.

I want to delay this realization as long as possible so that by the time Johanna is fully daggers out she'll be starting from way behind.
 
[X] Give your support to one the names she suggested
-[X] Aelora

Unless we want a three prong dance, we're going to have to choose one section of our rivals, both have their benefits and drawbacks. However we've basically cut off Damon from being an ally and I doubt we'll properly rectify that in any matter, he has more crossroads with the Velaryons at current, but we've certainly weakened him still and I could see that changing.

On the Velaryon path, we likely are going to be stuck with having to marry Laenor I expect, and while great for being each other's beards, is horrible for getting heirs (especially legitimate ones without major stress) which we will need to strengthen our position. However in terms of dragons this is likely to be a much stronger side unless the Westerling children go out claiming older dragons instead of hatching their own.

On the Westerling path, we have a lot more access and outside of our fondness for women being revealed to be actively detrimental to our relationship with Johanna, I think we can make headway here, and this half of the conflict will end up with a much greater claim to the throne than Damon's, which is more risky in terms of vassal opinion. However this will likely be the weaker half in terms of dragons especially if the children hatch their cradle eggs.
 
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[X] Give your support to one the names she suggested
-[X] Aelora
[X] Ask how her cats are doing
While in the long run Johanna is almost certainly doomed to be our enemy (unless she just never gives birth to a son), in the short to medium term she's not. It's in our best interest to postpone the confrontation as long as possible, especially if her firstborn is indeed a daughter.
 
[X] Ask how her cats are doing

All the stress reduction we get from blowing up at the Queen will slide right back when the consequences of making an enemy of the Queen come knocking. We are still at the stage where we need to establish our authority, being relatively young and unproven; although eventual conflict is inevitable, having it now would up the difficulty in so many unnecessary and damaging ways.

So: delay, deescalate, maybe tell our dad sometime later, but otherwise don't burn bridges until we have to.
 
Susano said:
To what end goal? Given her positions, conflict seems inevitable down the road, and we don't actually gain anything from delaying it. Whereas now we can get a bit of a stress reduction, which is nice. Even in pure game terms it's something minor vs, well, probably nothing.
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I wouldn't discount the possibility of becoming the exception to her 'rule'. Or just outright changing her opinion entirely with time and effort.

Even if we fail by then we could have a great relationship with our siblings that renders Johanna's beliefs mostly moot. Or severely undermines them.
 
[X] Give your support to one the names she suggested
-[X] Aelora

[X] Ask how her cats are doing

Wow... Okay, uh, let's just change the subject to something that's not stress-inducing.
 
The Defiant actually is only temporary stress reduction yeah. It's going to immediately blow up in our face as Johanna's active opposition will cause stress to go way up in future turns.

Besides, we have to protect Alicent as well. Sure telling Johanna Rhaenyra likes girls doesn't immediately out Alicent but let's not leave Johanna to stew for a year on who Rhaenyra could be dallying with besides Jeyne - it's not rocket science to figure out the Princesss lifelong best friend and handmaiden is the most likely partner.
 
[X] Talk about what will happen if she has a boy, matters of sucession and such.

I think we're losing sight of the goal here

We came to talk to Johanna because we want to avert the Canon situation where Rhaenyra views her siblings as nothing but competitors to the throne
Part of doing that is also working through Rhaenyra's issues regarding having siblings, and airing out her concerns with the Queen

I know the immediate kneejerk response is to consider conflict with Johanna inevitable
But her homophobia doesn't necessarily equate to her wanting to undermine Rhaenyra
She seems to be trying to be supportive at the moment

I also think it may be possible to get our relationship with Johanna to a point where realising Rhaenyra's preferences wouldn't result in immediate animosity
But that's a separate matter

Zimmerwald1915 said:
Pretty sure Johanna will be scheming regardless.
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I don't think that's actually true
All the marriage options would have had their own different challenges
And with Johanna that's her bigotry

But she doesn't seem to be antagonistic toward Rhaenyra regarding her status as heir

If she wanted to scheme, she wouldn't try to misguidedly warn Rhaenyra about Jeyne and public perceptions
She would have used those rumors about Rhaenyra to undermine her, without caring if they are true or not
 
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