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RHUNRIKKI STROLLAR (Warhammer Fantasy Golden Age Dwarf Runelord Quest)

Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
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On Thread Etiquette:
I'm not going to weigh in on the logic of either side's arguments, but I will ask that everyone read over what they write and really consider if the words they used are polite and won't be inflammatory intentionally or not. You cant account for people's tolerances perfectly but at least try to say your piece without saying things that can be easily construed as overly dismissive of the other side of the argument, thank you.

Please endeavour to be cordial. :^)
 
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Mmm, yeah. I feel like the consequences of having the hammer alone are predictable, but there wasn't much of a way to know that we'd be stuck in a two-way, undelayable, quest-defining choice that would seriously effect the narrative overall.
 
So, only Snorri himself thinks that taking the hammer means becoming his heir. Other dwarfs and we as readers can make our own judgment. There is no indication that Thugni intended for us to become the heir. The argument that we would be defying a god given mandate is not true. The only thing we know is that we were among the people eligible for the hammer and we proved ourselves through the trial.

Becoming the heir does not seem like a reward at all, instead it is the burden. The hammer is the reward and we can take it and gain all it's benefit regardless of becoming heir or not.

The positives of becoming the heir are:
- more political power to make the changes we want

This would however be contingent on the fact that Snorri would allow himself to make those changes. As made abundantly clear, Snorri as heir would try to emulate Thugni to the degree that the other runesmiths wouldn't notice a difference between Thugni and Snorri. The things like the university, dragons, out bird friends, etc do not seem like something that we would really consider if Snorri tried to emulate Thugni.

Thugni was after all very much know for being neutral.

The things that do make sense is the research into the inner workings of runecraft. This would make sense to work on as the continuation of Thugni.

Like mentioned before with the restaurant analogy, if we become the heir it's like we would be taking over the restaurant, let's say the restaurant serves Italian food, we would continue to only ever serve Italian food. Sure we can make better Italian food but still only ever Italian food. The name of the restaurant is Thugni and our accomplishment would forever be the accomplishment of the restaurant Thugni. Not of Snorri. People might say: "Snorri was a great manager of Thugni restaurant" but it will forever be connected to that.

We would loose the ability to make our own restaurant, people wouldn't say, Snorri is the best chef, people would only say, Thugni restaurant was best when Snorri was the chef.

So we can MAYBE affect the other runelords more if the take the title but that is also dependent on the other runelords actually accepting that we take the title, something that is not at all a given.

So we would take on a massive burden, no longer be our own person, we would need to drop our personal projects to try to emulate Thugni all for maybe getting more political power if the other runelords accept us.



In my mind Snorri is doubting himself, if he can actually overcome Thugni just on his own, by his own deeds, with his own power. Like it said, choosing not to become heir is choosing the spark that made us create the university and almost cause a schism for what we believed in, made us almost kill ourselves. Voting not to become the heir is believing in that spark, believing in ourselves.

Voting for the heir seems like taking on the burden of trying to take Thungni's place by giving up on our own ambitions. For the greater good so to say even if it's not at all obvious that it would actually be a good thing.

E: not to mention it's not clear if we would be able to keep our current heir, if we would be able to stay in our current hold, if we would be able to continue our current projects, if we would need to distance ourselves from our current connections so as to not seems too biased etc.
 
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Rukia said:
I'd like to question why we were forced to pick up the hammer in the first place? The thread went into getting the hammer on the basis of "ooh shiny gear" and once we started we were locked in to taking it. There was no option to go "wait shit I don't to get involved with this" once the deeper political implications were made clear, the tests just seemed like "are they worthy of my hammer" until the last second. Even denying the Heir position and taking the hammer is still making a huge political statement we might not have wanted to make if we'd have the option.

And actually, we got the riddle while Thungi was still around, if we'd rushed to it and got the hammer how the hell would that have worked? Would we have just gone to Thungi for clarification or made a statement even while he was still around?
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You came for the hammer, you're keeping the hammer.

This vote has many decisions involved in it and that will spring from it.

If you had done it right away, you have no guarantee of knowing Thungni would be there to answer your questions, let alone even deign to.

Mr. Idiot said:
We can't give up that damn hammer, we're stuck with it now because of Snorri's interpretation. And honestly, if the fun stuff is gone, I can always move on, it's better than being angry for a few days straight.
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Do what's best for your mental health. In the end its a silly quest. It's been fun all the same.
Gabriel_TFA said:
What was done, is done, we found a damn hammer, and now we deal with consequences. Seriously, don't start the "If I knew, I would be against that!" thing. Milk was spilt, don't cry about it.
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Don't be combative.

Derpmind said:
@soulcake I feel like you've been as vague with this choice as Thrugni was in story. What the heck even are we deciding here, like, what is the quest going to look like going forward if we take the title? And why was there no warning ahead of time that this might be where we'd end up by seeking the riddle?
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You're deciding a lot of things, stuff I can't largely say without spoiling.

Why there was no warning, is because Thungni didn't tell you, which can be read in a bunch of ways.

There's a lot of moving parts but a perfectly valid take on this situation is this:

Snorri has an interpretation of something he read. That interpretation has serious implications and consequences for him and everyone around him. There's a bunch of obvious results and probably just as many, if not more that won't become apparent until well after the fact.

Do you want to make your interpretation public, or do you not?

Its reductive as all hell mind you, but maybe it will help someone choose.

Snorri is the thread, and the thread is Snorri past char gen. My job is to make your choices work, I didn't add choices that I don't think would work or that I (think at least) couldn't make work.

OhNoMySanitea said:
Mmm, yeah. I feel like the consequences of having the hammer alone are predictable, but there wasn't much of a way to know that we'd be stuck in a two-way, undelayable, quest-defining choice that would seriously effect the narrative overall.
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You went on an expedition to claim the hammer of your god. I feel like that premise alone can qualify as one where such a choice may happen.
 
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soulcake said:
Snorri is the thread, and the thread is Snorri past char gen. My job is to make your choices work, I didn't add choices that I don't think would work or that I (think at least) couldn't make work.
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The thing is he is not entirely the thread, that is the main concern right now. Personally I would love the power of the title, which would be then used to advance our plans in everything from encouraging more runesmith collaboration to getting closer to the elves politically so we notice when they have a civil war. But there is the concern that the word 'heir' comes with some limitations on Snori's agency that are based on his preexisting value set (the hand in glove stuff) which we at no point voted for. To be clear I am not saying this as an accusation, just trying to be blunt about why it can be hard to judge what the vote is going to do, it is contingent on some of Snori's values that we the voters do not share.
 
soulcake said:
Do you want to make your interpretation public, or do you not?

Snorri is the thread, and the thread is Snorri past char gen. My job is to make your choices work, I didn't add choices that I don't think would work or that I (think at least) couldn't make work.
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Hardly any of the arguments are along these lines. And, frankly, "your", or rather Snorri's, interpretation isn't something many of us agree with at all. (For all we know, someone else got clues leading them to Gormwand and a similar very-not-clear riddle that makes them think they're also Thrugni's Heir.) But there is no vote option to disagree with that interpretation. It feels like a choice made for us.
 
soulcake said:
You're deciding a lot of things, stuff I can't largely say without spoiling.

Why there was no warning, is because Thungni didn't tell you, which can be read in a bunch of ways.

There's a lot of moving parts but a perfectly valid take on this situation is this:

Snorri has an interpretation of something he read. That interpretation has serious implications and consequences for him and everyone around him. There's a bunch of obvious results and probably just as many, if not more that won't become apparent until well after the fact.

Do you want to make your interpretation public, or do you not?

Snorri is the thread, and the thread is Snorri past char gen. My job is to make your choices work, I didn't add choices that I don't think would work or that I (think at least) couldn't make work.
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I'm trying to avoid coming across as combative here, but this is genuinely extremely unhelpful. "What does this vote mean for the quest" > "It means things, important things, you'll find out once you vote."

This is just setting up for an extremely bitter playerbase after the vote because the expectations people are getting from the options don't seem to match the reality of what is going to happen. Especially with the consequences that have been implied by the "gloving" of Thungi.
 
Derpmind said:
I'd feel better about this vote if so many of the arguments for taking the title weren't so... blinkered. "It's our duty." "Thrugni said so." "This helps us avert canon." Do y'all actually want this, like, is this the direction you want the rest of the quest to take, or do you just think it's the choice we're supposed to make? Blindly following authority is a massive problem in Dawi society, and here we are falling into the exact same trap.
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Following the ways of your ancestors and taking on the duties of your lineage and inherited position is not "blindly following authority", its taking responsibility.

Fucking christ its like people are allergic to any tradition and think that our ancestors were stupid dipshits who didn't know any better.
 
[x] Claim the Title of Heir: [Cost: ???] Gain title: Heir of Thungni, ??? You claim a position that has remained in doubt since Durin died. By Thungni's word, the hammer you would now wield confirms that you are His Heir. Elevating your authority to that of the Ancestor's eldest children, living or dead. You would not, could not be a tyrant of course, but still.

I don't care about reasons. I want to stop Malekith. I want to stop the War.


I WANT TO TELL THE BEARDLINGS TO BEHAVE OR ELSE.
 
Rukia said:
I'm trying to avoid coming across as combative here, but this is genuinely extremely unhelpful. "What does this vote mean for the quest" > "It means things, important things, you'll find out once you vote."

This is just setting up for an extremely bitter playerbase after the vote because the expectations people are getting from the options don't seem to match the reality of what is going to happen. Especially with the consequences that have been implied by the "gloving" of Thungi.
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A Runelord claiming the Hammer of the Runelord Ancestor God was always going to be a quest defining moment filled with questions of tradition, duty and legitimacy. There was no other way for it to go given Dawi Culture and society and indeed no other way for it to go given how the vast majority of human cultures work. We'd have to be willfully blind.
 
[X] Refuse the Title of Heir: [Cost: Nothing] Gain ???. You will take up this hammer, you will use it, but you are your own Dwarf with your own goals. The burden of carrying Thungni's Will, of being His Heir, is one you choose not to carry. Someone or no one can claim it for all you care, but it will not be you.
 
Whatever happens, I'm not going to complain about the results of this vote. Ultimately…the hammer is what matters. It's actually sad we can't focus as much on how awesome it is!
 
Deadly Snark said:
Following the ways of your ancestors and taking on the duties of your lineage and inherited position is not "blindly following authority", its taking responsibility.

Fucking christ its like people are allergic to any tradition and think that our ancestors were stupid dipshits who didn't know any better.
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I mean it's Warhammer, the basic premise of the setting is 'everyone failed and then they died'. It is very hard to keep in mind both 'the ancestors are wonderful and clever' and also 'we have to save everyone or they are all fucked'.
 
soulcake said:
Do you want to make your interpretation public, or do you not?
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In that case. Would it be fair to say that the vote is more about taking up Thungni's mantle based on the poem rather than taking up Thungni's mantle at all.

Because the latter would mean the door is shut forever if refused, while the former would still allow for Snorri to take Durin's seat by recognition of his peers.

I'd be all for that last one. Blaze a trail bright that none can deny our claim.

Nevermind the trolling of our opponents.
 
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Rukia said:
I'd be a lot less against the Heir arguments if not for the fact it's clear that a lot of the claim votes were made under misunderstandings or unclear information. But unfortunately most people will read the chapter, vote then not look at the thread until the next update, so there isn't much to be done there.
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Ah, the age-old tactic of being condescending towards other voters because your choice is losing. Seriously, it's very insulting to think that only the side you advocate for has thought through the implications. My choice was made after rereading the whole quest and information threadmarks.
 
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