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If you're so worried about creating an imbalance politically and favoring one College over the others, I'm not sure why you're voting for Jade leylines.

I don't even mind going for the Grey Lord Foundation, but your argument is sabotaging your position.
It's a similar issue sure but the alternates are less viable. It's an option taken out of necessity rather than choice.

The Hedgewise option requires ongoing maintenance to continue functioning. If either the fish aren't available or the people aren't able to perform the sacrifices then the waystone riverline stops operating. Also needing to have people constantly going up to the stone and sacrificing things to it will bring a lot more attention than the other options.

The Spirit option is simply a mystery box. We might get rivers that just won't want to work with us or ask for things that we won't give or turn out to be extremely expensive. If you're fine with the risk then then go for spiritlines since yes it lacks that problem. Having put some more thought it into it myself I do think the risks are fairly bearable, the river spirits do seem to be a known issue with plenty of professionals capable of dealing with them. I'll go ahead and add a Spirit option to my post since it does seem like a fine idea.
 
Unless the waystones can be built in separate parts and assembled on site, there are probably going to be some kind of waystone factories in the future if we aim for mass deployement. That or mobile teams of casters from different disciplines if it ends up that waystones must be enchanted on-site.
 
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It's a similar issue sure but the alternates are less viable. It's an option taken out of necessity rather than choice.

The Hedgewise option requires ongoing maintenance to continue functioning. If either the fish aren't available or the people aren't able to perform the sacrifices then the waystone riverline stops operating. Also needing to have people constantly going up to the stone and sacrificing things to it will bring a lot more attention than the other options.

The Spirit option is simply a mystery box. We might get rivers that just won't want to work with us or ask for things that we won't give or turn out to be extremely expensive. If you're fine with the risk then then go for spiritlines since yes it lacks that problem. Having put some more thought it into it myself I do think the risks are fairly bearable, the river spirits do seem to be a known issue with plenty of professionals capable of dealing with them. I'll go ahead and add a Spirit option to my post since it does seem like a fine idea.
I disagree with your position but can appreciate the logic behind it.
 
I made Plan Building A Better Future, but I'm regretting picking the [Expensive] version of Runed foundation. Sure, it's what I personally think would make the best design; runes should excel at storing magic, since runecrafting makes the best enchanted items. Plus it's simple to make and there are plenty of runesmiths who could help. But if it loses out to the (very difficult) Reverse-engineered foundation because of the cost then I should've picked [Moderate] or even [Cheap] instead.

Edit: It's probably too late for variant plans, but I should try anyways. For what it counts, the [Transmission] component is the only or only other component with a moderate cost in these plans, so either of them should be rather economical on that front.

[X] Plan Building A Moderately Expensive Future
-[X] [CAPSTONE] Stone Flower
-[X] [RUNE] Dwarven
-[X] [STORAGE] (Moderate) Runed
-[X] [FOUNDATION] Grey Lord
-[X] [TRANSMISSION] Both (Jade Riverine)

[X] Plan Building A Relatively Cheap Future
-[X] [CAPSTONE] Stone Flower
-[X] [RUNE] Dwarven
-[X] [STORAGE] (Cheap) Runed
-[X] [FOUNDATION] Grey Lord
-[X] [TRANSMISSION] Both (Jade Riverine)

[X] Plan Building A Better Future
 
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[X] Plan Building A Moderately Expensive Future
[X] Plan Building A Relatively Cheap Future
[X] Plan Building A Better Future
[X] Plan Spend Money Not Effort
[X] Plan Simple and Functional
[X] Plan: The FEMA Model
[X] Plan The Hinterlander
[X] Plan: The FEMA Model (Collegiate Foundation Edition)
 
Oh god there's so many pages since I last checked. I don't suppose anyone made a flowchart explaining the options?
I have a catalogue here but it's a little out of date since a bunch of plans got created after voting started and it didn't seem super worth updating while the vote was live and people could check the tally to see what was up.
I believe Boney said that the way the wealth will be used will not leave it particularly enticing to looters.
Yup:
Expensive materials, but not in a way that has resale value.
 
[X] Plan Building A Better Future (With reverse engineering)

As promised. Will throw in more approval votes if/when it becomes relevant but for the moment things seem pretty firmly narrowed to a pair of frontrunners.
 
@Boney
Do the people on this project with more knowledge of Nexuses have reason to believe that rivers will need constructions on a similar scale as nexi to handle a Nexus-level of energy?


It has occurred to me that if a lot of the work is offloaded to a river spirit or god, or the waystone is just putting energy in and we're relying on the motion of the water to move it, it may be possible to avoid some of the high-energy engineering.

One of the things I've also considered is that the riverine design may allow the reconnection of the Kislev network through Kislev city if they're willing to reconnect and the empire is willing to build a line of infrastructure between the two networks.
 
Blah this is getting silly. I trust picklepikkl.

[X] Plan Building A Moderately Expensive Future
[X] Plan Building A Relatively Cheap Future
[X] Plan Building A Better Future
[X] Plan Spend Money Not Effort
[X] Plan Simple and Functional
[X] Plan: The FEMA Model
[X] Plan The Hinterlander
[X] Plan: The FEMA Model (Collegiate Foundation Edition)
 
The Spirit option is simply a mystery box. We might get rivers that just won't want to work with us or ask for things that we won't give or turn out to be extremely expensive. If you're fine with the risk then then go for spiritlines since yes it lacks that problem. Having put some more thought it into it myself I do think the risks are fairly bearable, the river spirits do seem to be a known issue with plenty of professionals capable of dealing with them. I'll go ahead and add a Spirit option to my post since it does seem like a fine idea.
My thought with the spirit option is that we can hope that it's possible to set it up so it's hostile to attack, or the spirit isn't much affected by distances greater than the transmission limits of more conventional magic.
Making it extremely well suited to northern Kislev.
And potentially barely possible for the Ulricans to deploy along Norscan rivers. Not entirely sure there's any good reason to prioritize them, but if it's feasible for an empire ship to need to penetrate a given Norscan river once every few years to make a sacrifice to the local river god, and in exchange those river gods will work in concert with some stones dumped in deep spots of the riverbed to drain magic out of the area and dump it unused into the sea of Claws, thus reducing the ability of the chaos gods to bless their followers along the rivers(the ones who most often raid the empire), that sort of thing might be worthwhile after Kislev is covered. Perhaps coupled with a spell meant to make the stones harder to find or dredge up.
 
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For some reason, Plan Building A Moderately Expensive Future isn't showing up as saying it has Moderate storage in the plan tally, it's showing up as having Expensive storage.
 
Why on Mallus are people so interested in the reverse-engineered storage?

It adds a huge extra source of complexity and uncertainty, as well as potentially seriously limiting deployment.

What is it that so many see as the selling point of it?
 
The Rule of Pride is a codification of the fact that Runesmiths have pride. If you go to one and point at something they previously did and tell them to do it again, they don't want to, because there's no enjoyment or satisfaction in making the same thing over again and it does not advance their skills or reputation in any way. If you go to one and point at something someone else did and tell them to make you one, you're likely to get punched in the face. That means that their business-as-usual approach to Runecraft is that someone commissions them to make a specific weapon or armour or whatever and trusts in their skills and artistic sensibilities to make something good and appropriate. But that only covers business as usual. If you go to one and ask them if they want to be part of rebuilding the network that keeps the continent alive that is also a glorious remnant of the golden age, something that some will point to in the history books as the point where the tide of Dwarven glory stopped going out, they're not going to pout and stamp their feet over having to carve the same rune the same way multiple times.

Can Hans the local mason talk to spirits?
Genuinely curious.
Wizards and priests might have more options when talking, but can spirits hear when regular people try to talk to them?

Depends on the spirit. There are those that are willing and able to learn Reikspiel (or whatever other local language) in order to communicate with people they encounter, and a few who a regular person might encounter and converse with without ever being aware that it's anything but an unusual stranger. There are others that learn it to fuck with the people they encounter. Some mimic the sounds of it or learn a few rote phrases because it entertains them. But many lesser spirits don't have the capacity to learn a language, and not all of those who can will bother to do so. Part of being a professional spirit wrangler is learning how to communicate to them in a way they understand.

Completely random thought, but do Waystones inherently need to be static?

Not for now, but for a later development, but could we make a Waystone built in a boat?

When you boil it down, a Waystone has two requirements: to actively draw in and contain ambient magical energy, and to do something that gets it going towards the Great Vortex. The traditional method of doing the latter has been leylines, which do require a fixed point. The spirit riverine method could work on a boat. The non-spirit riverine method would almost work with a boat, but it doesn't have an answer for what to do with Dhar. It wouldn't be difficult to work out some sort of swap-out storage mechanism that can be physically relayed to a fixed Waystone and dumped into the network that way, and some sort of air transmission tower that requires the boat to anchor, extend it, and aim it to work seems feasible.

Why the hell did the elves of the Golden Age put so many damn nexuses in the area of the Middle Mountains? If that is the risk that comes with trying to make them? Obviously it was less risky in the Golden Age, but why the hell are there so many? There are at least four in it and bordering it. There's an additional seven near those.

Borek mentioned something about it drawing the Karaz Ghumzul dwarfs, but that is still a lot.

The most straightforward theory would be they were trying to drain the bad vibes out of the Forest of Shadows, but the Middle Mountains do have a lot of unpleasant strangeness about them. That the Elves of the Golden Age thought there needed a three-nexus relay connecting the Middle Mountains to the Talabheim nexus instead of the Forest of Shadows nexuses being connected just through Tor Lithanel is an eyebrow-raiser. If they just wanted to prevent Altdorf from being a single point of failure there would have been much easier ways to manage that.

@Boney How effective is the reverse-engineered storage, compared to the others?

More.

Magic flows from the poles right? Does that mean if we strengthen the network in kislev everything south of there will improve due to less magic making it past?

To an extent, yes.

@Boney
Do the people on this project with more knowledge of Nexuses have reason to believe that rivers will need constructions on a similar scale as nexi to handle a Nexus-level of energy?

Probably not. A leyline between nexuses is carrying all of that in a single 'pipeline'. The riverine methods use the flow of water (and we're talking about an absolutely mind-boggling amount of water) to do most of the work and are just using an artificial 'pipeline' for the Dhar.
 
I think we could actually add a few new waystone components, if we wanted to.

Information and Defense are two pretty big categories that could see straightforward uses. The use of information is clear; some way to know if a waystone is being messed with without having to be near it would be a life saver. This wouldn't normally be something so casually suggested, but given that the whole point of waystones is sending stuff down to other waystones you kind of have to admire the synergy.

A straightforward on/off life signal could feed into a map. Just, a simple map with little on/off dots of light on it. It's technology that feels like it existed back in our Stirland days, and the utility of not having to do mapping actions twice is obvious.

River spirits could also be bribed to provide updates about the state of the stones in their care, if we ever decide to rely on them.

Alternatively, we could use a variant of the spell to call Vazila, spirits which serve any sorcerer in Kislev for the purpose of letting them know if someone is about to steal their horse. (Yes, there is a set of spirits with that specific job and any caster of any lore can learn the spell to employ them. It's an entirely sincere suggestion.)


As for defenses, one of the things that bugs me the most about leaving waystones out in the wild is that there are these big Beastmen Ogre things that will just steal them. The whole waystone, just pick it up, because they're blind to the physical world and it's the only object they can see. Also they eat the souls of wizards specifically, which I also hate, so this serves a dual purpose.

Anyhow, attaching an apparition that hates dark magic to a waystone with the instruction that anything that damages the waystone is basically doing Dark Magic would result in most people who damage waystones discovering what happens when their insides become their outsides.

Dark mages are scary, but usually notably weak to something just eating them out of the blue. It won't always work, but it can't hurt.
 
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Why on Mallus are people so interested in the reverse-engineered storage?

It adds a huge extra source of complexity and uncertainty, as well as potentially seriously limiting deployment.

What is it that so many see as the selling point of it?
Personally I think it is very cool. Restoring the Waystone Network entirely would probably already be a project of decades. So I don't see slowing down the deployment as that much of a downside in exchange for the sheer cool factor.

There's more to it than that, like how it is already tested to be damn good, but a lot of my reasoning is the coolness of the enchantment.

The most straightforward theory would be they were trying to drain the bad vibes out of the Forest of Shadows, but the Middle Mountains do have a lot of unpleasant strangeness about them. That the Elves of the Golden Age thought there needed a three-nexus relay connecting the Middle Mountains to the Talabheim nexus instead of the Forest of Shadows nexuses being connected just through Tor Lithanel is an eyebrow-raiser. If they just wanted to prevent Altdorf from being a single point of failure there would have been much easier ways to manage that.
Oh I wasn't asking you specifically, just wondering in general. A bit too excitedly. I hope the phrasing didn't irritate you.

I was mostly trying to figure out how we could get more information on that area. After I posted that I eventually hit upon an answer. This also isn't a response to you, it's just built off of your response. Err.

Anyways! Have Hatalath and Thorek both help us poke the Laurelorn network and the Forest of Shadow nexuses! Hatalath lived back then and knows the Grey Lords, so he could at least have some clues. Thorek might have picked up some things from the Karaz Ghumzul dwarfs in Middenheim. Obviously we'd have Cadaeth and Aksel too. Cadaeth for a more practical examination of the network and Aksel to help us through the Forest of Shadows. (Edit: Thorek might be a bad idea for Laurelorn, but he might know stuff about Middenheim or help us figure stuff out about it. I'm sure Mathilde can keep him away from the forests proper if needed.)

This shall be my white whale. I want to know what is it about those damn mountains. Besides the fact that they're cursed to not have any ore veins.
 
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The continuing dregs of the war and the transition to rebuild Sylvania's infrastructure has probably been very expensive.

Stirland is in a vastly better position to develop than it has been for a very long time, but the amount of available liquid capital it has to pay for imported goods and services that hasn't already been committed may well be pretty limited.

It has a lot of growth potential, but is still probably cash poor, and what there is is probably pretty well spoken for. It may well be prosperous in a generation, but that means it's generating big surpluses now.

And if it does need to buy expensive Waystones, that leaves less capital to invest in the other things that will make it safe and prosperous.
Worth noting that I'm fairly sure that Stirland will get some sort of financial aid for getting Waystones set up, particularly in Sylvania. The Undead coming out of that place are everyone's problem, and untaining that land is something everyone in the Empire can get behind.

And while there will definitely be arguments to be made for places like the Forest of Shadows and such, Sylvania is currently militarily pacified and lacks the problems of trying to keep a close eye on things through a dense and large forest full of dangers.

Extra bonus points for the appeal in the huge incentives and economic potential for the new canal route; untaining that land could foster a major economic boom along a new, major trade lane stretching from Barak Varr (and technically all the way from Karak Azul), going through Zhufbar backyard (and they certainly have a lot of desireable goods to sell and materials to buy), and right into the heart of the Empire.

Worries about the northern Empire being ignored can be mollified by how this project will aim to cover everywhere in the Old World where the land can be relatively secure, and that the northern flanks can't be ignored because one of the most important places for Waystone deployment will be northern Kislev.

Stirland as it is now is definitely not impoverished, but it is probably relatively short on funds. The good news is that it is that way because it has been spending its money constantly on improving its situation in decisive, lasting ways, and successfully so. This is helped by the fact that a lot of the money Stirland has spent has been going into the EIC, which itself has been spending that money building a major economic powerhouse throughout the region, Stirland very much included. That gold spent has been indirectly fueling a buildup of Stirland's economy.

In the long term, pacifying Sylvania, the canal project, and the EIC, coupled with gunpowder/niter production and modest but noteworthy firearm production, alongside the major potential with Zhufbar being a neighbor but now without corrupted Sylvania getting in the way...there is a LOT to look forward to. And when We-silk starts hitting the markets, traffic through the canal will pick up at a dramatic pace.

While the work of truly rooting out chinks in the armor for Vampiric influence to seep through will be the work of generations, it really does seem like Roswita's reign will see the days of Vampires and Necromancers feeling comfortable or powerful in Sylvania at an end. The Grey, Amethyst, and Light Orders will definitely have to keep a close eye on things there, but now they can readily send Wizards to any town or city in that region to investigate rather than needing to have an army at their backs to even get close.
 
I've seen the worries about spending future AP designing new models of Waystone dropping up in thread, and although I'm not sure if this argument has been made already, on the off chance that it hasn't I feel this is worth saying:

Almost inevitably, new models of Waystone will have to be designed, but we don't need to be around for it, because the Waystone designing cabal is more than capable of doing so without us.

Maybe not as easily and diplomatically without Mathilde standing between them acting as a soothing intermediary, but now that the project had probably worked I really can't see them just… refusing, if they feel the needs arise.

They're all extremely capable and experienced adults, most of them magnitudes older than Mathilde will ever be. The Project will soon, reasonably, be as complete as it will ever be, and so there's no moral nor practical demand to linger if we really do not wish to.

Of course, there's nothing wrong with it if we do! It's just- we shouldn't feel the need to make a one side fits all Waystone that will work forever, everywhere, kind of well enough today, especially if it sacrificed a great deal. We, or other people, or the next (human) generation of arcane scholars can now always return to the drawing board if the need ever does arise.
 
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