Magoose
SV's Questing Fanatic
- Location
- California USA
- Pronouns
- He
Yes and no. The city is still very much politically divided and the Church has tons of power.
But we have an agreement to actually... have the city and tax it.
Yes.
A Reforged World (NO SV, You are King of Italy, in a Greatly Changed World)
- Thread starter Magoose
- Start date
- Original Alt. History
But we have an agreement to actually... have the city and tax it.
ThatGuyWithIdeas
Treize died for our sins
- Location
- Romania
[X] Princess Isabella of Austria
I don't trust the Ottomans to be a good ally to us even if we take their marriage offer.
I don't trust the Ottomans to be a good ally to us even if we take their marriage offer.
- Location
- Pallet town, Kanto
[X]Beyhan Sultan (Sister of Suliman)
ThatGuyWithIdeas
Treize died for our sins
- Location
- Romania
And I'd rather not marry Beyhan, since what she brings to the table is not worth it. The Ottomans do not like us, so I expect them to be unreliable allies at best. At worst, they may even betray us. Better to marry one of our European options and forge better ties with parts of Europe than sour our relations with Europe for someone we aren't sure we can trust.
Yes, marrying an Ottoman seen as barbarians and pagans by the Italian population makes sense. It will not generate suspicion or internal discomfort.
Also marrying into the Ottomans is extremely short sighted in terms of trade and economics if that's the primary motivation for people voting. The 16th century is the beginning of the end of Mediterranean economic dominance and will see the first stages of the Ottoman's downfall as the Sick Man of Europe. Meanwhile the New World is being explored and that is going to be the driving force behind the Western economy for the next 300 years. It won't matter if we pass through Constantinople toll free, which I highly doubt Sulemain is gonna hold in perpetuity. It matters that the Spanish are receiving a shit ton of gold and silver and are discovering new world products such as tobacco and using the Caribbean as a source of rare goods such as salt and sugar to bypass Mediterranean trade.
We marry Isabel, we gain an in to that New World Trade through her Spanish roots while also strengthening ties with the future King of Spain and current Conquistador extraordinaire Charles. We also gain favorable rights through the Holy Roman Empire, and an ally against the Ottoman incursions. Suleiman wants to conquer Europe, there is no way he doesn't plan on stabbing us in the back later and would be content with Italy just ruling maritime trade when the Ottomans are supposed to be masters of the straits. We already are racking in the money for the armistice, if Suleiman tries to pour bullshit on us again we cut the Empire in half with a blockade and gain Greece.
We should not marry the sister of the man who we were just at war with, a slaver who continually conquers and plunders Europe and is seen as Satan by much of Europe. We give Suleiman a free hand he'll conquer Europe and once the HRE is done, he'll conquer us next so he can be the true heir to Rome. If you want further proof, the bride he wants us to marry OTL had a husband who was executed by Suleiman after he successfully crushed a rebellion against Suleiman's rule. That's how Suleiman treated his OTL brother-in-law who was his servant, how is he gonna treat us, the man who destroyed his Navy and conquered Crete and Rhodes?
We marry Isabel, we gain an in to that New World Trade through her Spanish roots while also strengthening ties with the future King of Spain and current Conquistador extraordinaire Charles. We also gain favorable rights through the Holy Roman Empire, and an ally against the Ottoman incursions. Suleiman wants to conquer Europe, there is no way he doesn't plan on stabbing us in the back later and would be content with Italy just ruling maritime trade when the Ottomans are supposed to be masters of the straits. We already are racking in the money for the armistice, if Suleiman tries to pour bullshit on us again we cut the Empire in half with a blockade and gain Greece.
We should not marry the sister of the man who we were just at war with, a slaver who continually conquers and plunders Europe and is seen as Satan by much of Europe. We give Suleiman a free hand he'll conquer Europe and once the HRE is done, he'll conquer us next so he can be the true heir to Rome. If you want further proof, the bride he wants us to marry OTL had a husband who was executed by Suleiman after he successfully crushed a rebellion against Suleiman's rule. That's how Suleiman treated his OTL brother-in-law who was his servant, how is he gonna treat us, the man who destroyed his Navy and conquered Crete and Rhodes?
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I doubt it would generate much more than the ill omen of our first wife dying on us. Yeah, Italians will be fickle and critique anything less than an British or Italian bride at this point. Not much of a decision impactor in my opinion.
Not really looking for war allies so much as trade partners, which Suleiman is giving us.
Yes, after another dozen or twenty turns trade would have begun to shift towards the Atlantic, in some part do to strong piracy we have just ended in the region, and in another part do to the establishment of proper harbors in the new world. With the piracy eliminated and these rights granted by Suleiman, the shift in shipping priority will not be so severe, allowing italy and it's control of the Mediterranean to remain impactful on the global economy.
I'd think Mary would be the ideal bride for Atlantic trade given Britain is the only country with a navy nearly as powerful as ours. Between our fleets we would more or less control trade from or to Europe. Isabella doesn't even come with much in the way of wealth. It's just legitimation and a thaw of tensions between nations.
Ehh. Let him try. After the losses he incurred and the damage to trade, going on the war path immediately is a fools bargain. Odds are he'll never be half the conqueror he was in actual history do to Luciano's rise.
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ThatGuyWithIdeas
Treize died for our sins
- Location
- Romania
You are underestimating the situation here. Italy perceives the Ottomans in a bad light after the war they had with us, to the point where the Italian people might be willing to wage more war against the Ottomans if that will ensure their safety. Us marrying Suleiman's sister is going to be perceived as us selling out the interests of the Italian people for money and be perceived as a betrayal, which will cause severe unrest. I really do not want to gamble on the Ottoman marriage being accepted by our people, so it's better to just marry Isabella. We can trust the Austrians to become more friendly to us and our efforts if we take their marriage candidate. The same can not be said about the Ottomans.
Same issue. Suleiman has no real reason to deal with us in good faith, it's much more likely he'll try to trick us into deals that aren't as good as they look on the surface or he might outright refuse to trade with us.
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I really don't trust the Austrians, especially if the bride dies before anything comes of it. I'd be willing to swap Beyhan for Mary Tudor if she started gaining traction, but not Isabella.
[X]Beyhan Sultan (Sister of Suliman)
"But they do." Machiavelli deadpans as he points at SV.
@Magoose is there a way to expand Suleiman's request with our own proposal: We will not attack any Ottoman Warships and Merchant Ships under the circumstance that both nations are not at war with each other, and the fact they do not attack any of the Italian Warships and Merchant Ships.?
Same, England's been Italy's ally during the Unification and the Italo-Ottoman War.
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- Location
- leiden (NL)
[X]Princess Isabella of Austria
Either her or Mary Tudor. Definitely not the Ottomans.
Either her or Mary Tudor. Definitely not the Ottomans.
[X]Princess Isabella of Austria
I'm going to sound like an asshole but if she dies around the same time as OTL, it would allow us realign ourselves politically if it is ever needed.
I'm going to sound like an asshole but if she dies around the same time as OTL, it would allow us realign ourselves politically if it is ever needed.
[X]Beyhan Sultan (Sister of Suliman)
F*ck it, we ball.
[X]Mary Tudor, Princess of England
Would take this as an Alternative, though.
F*ck it, we ball.
[X]Mary Tudor, Princess of England
Would take this as an Alternative, though.
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- Reader
Not on your life Machiavelli.
Right now, no. All of these probably open up new actions to leverage the marriage to our gain. They all also have the potential to go wrong, since even england may turn to privateering, which is just Piracy by another name. The marriages are all opportunities, but there also conflicts of interest in the long-term.
Actually they sat it out, like everyone besides Gotz and his volunteer armies. I like her, but she just isn't getting the votes, so it's looking increasingly like we go for legitimacy with Isabella or trade profits with Beyhan.
@Magoose does Gotz got any grandkids in a position to end up on the marriage list if we wait?
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I do not trust the Magiose Dice to not instantly kill Isabella off.
[X]Beyhan Sultan (Sister of Suliman)
- Location
- Take a wild guess
[X]Princess Isabella of Austria