A 1 in 5, that isn't good.
Threads Of Destiny(Eastern Fantasy, Sequel to Forge of Destiny)
- Thread starter yrsillar
- Start date
- Original Users' Choice!
Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
Yrs said no Omake points on discord.
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Black Noise
Curious
- Location
- About 1AU from Sol
Gonna ignore the other parts there are here to dig into to focus on Jin Tae here.
Firstly, he is not our friend and we're both aware of it, newbie in the MoI he may be, he still considers his role important and as such is keeping both personal and official-stance jabs and comments to where they do not hurt the image of a united front; in his mind we're still imperials first and obviously we should care about shared interests on that level above all.
Second, he's a bit of an ass and we're predisposed to dislike him, both OOC because he's MoI and a Jin and IC because of Jiao's analysis on MoI stance and his stated views notably clashing with mission goals, but the key point coming across here is that he's expressing these views because that's the culture he's known in his very limited experience, and nothing of what he's seen so far is convincing him that this is in any way a good idea.
We don't owe it to him or the MoI to actually convince them of viability at least, just that we're not hurting imperial interests or overstepping in dangerous ways, but there is definitely room for us to sow doubt in the certainty of his beliefs, as Ling Qi did by asking him what would it take to not default to demanding apology and reparation.
Finally, he's actually nice to bounce thoughts off of and get a perspective we're not often exposed to; and in general there's been a lack of net-antagonistic NPC's we actually interact with, and while it would be a long road to get someone like him to the level of Liling for narrative impact, his presence is definitely a step in the right direction and a welcome addition in my book.
The thing is that he won't be with us long enough to reach that level of relavence. Unless the throne or MoI stations Cap Chun as a permanent observer at the site, he'll be gone within the next couple of months in-setting, after the summit is over.
But in the meantime, you're right that he'll be providing a good sounding board.
- Location
- Chicago
- Pronouns
- She/They
I think the reason I am antagonistic towards him is that I view our failure condition- summit collapses, no more contact with these foreigners, war of elimination with the cloud tribes- as his preferred outcome. And the sooner it happens the better for him. So he's got an incentive to sabotage us, and I think he'd view doing so as a faithful execution of his duties.
If their Geomancer's cultivation is so extremely delicate that they can't even brush against another person without suffering disruptions, then that's something you very much want to inform the foreign coworker laboring rigth next to you.
How come this didn't come up at any point in all the time both sides where working in the project? This should have been explained at the very beggining when the overseers of each side met for the first time to discuss how to tackle the construction.
This is the WS's negligence for not properly explaining such a crucial aspect of working with them.
Heck, we had an explicit action to discover cultural pitfalls. "Geomancer can't be touched, less alone by the opposite gender" really sounds like one of the first things that should have been mentioned.
A blast is far more urgent to stop than material degradation. So the Imperial worker was 100% in the right to physically stop the guy when he ignored her warnings. Because yes, he did not misunderstand her, he ignored her. He must absolutely have noticed the urgency in the imperial worker's tone and body language.
Yet he decided to continue without even attempting to communicate the problem, unlike the imperial woman. Despite his urgency not being an immediate threat to them, unlike a blast.
Add the guard's unnecessary punching her, when she could have easily pull them apart, and their failure at communicating their own critical information, and I'm convinced that the WS is mostly responsible of this incident.
It's still good to attempt a mutual apology, but this fact should still be properly declared.
About the vote, I'm kinda leaning towards this one. But I'm not really convinced. "Negative event" is to unconcise to properly evaluate risks. It still sounds as something we want to avoid, tough.
Losing a bit of benefits sounds better than adding a whole new problem to the mix.
[ ] Seek a mutual apology. And better work practices, even if it delays construction and makes the hall a bit less grand. (Improves Mutual opinion between civilians. 20% Chance that project will come short of goals, reducing benefits. Loss of face if incomplete)
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- Location
- Chicago
- Pronouns
- She/They
I mean, if you want to write off harming the cultivation of a rare and precious geomancer because they should have told us something they thought we already knew, ok. But brushing off the fact that the white sky cultivator was also actively trying to prevent a bad thing from happening seems a bit biased.
Personally I think that a blast would have been bad, but a long term leak of maliciousness into the place where negotiations are going to be held is worse.
Personally I think that a blast would have been bad, but a long term leak of maliciousness into the place where negotiations are going to be held is worse.
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Varder
Tired Cultist
- Location
- Hell
It's different levels of urgency. Materials exploding is something you need to stop now even by physical means, if need be. Materials rotting away is something you have time to get you superior to deal with.
- Pronouns
- He/Him
They thought the Imperials knew because they were giving everyone so much space and not touching each other. That's normal for Imperials, but it isn't for the White Sky so they thought it was a mutually understood part of being a geomancer. It's a cultural misunderstanding, but one that makes a lot of sense in context.
Stopping is what causes the materials to degrade, though. Like, if he didn't stop they didn't degrade, if he did stop they degraded immediately and getting the supervisor doesn't magically fix them. I agree her concern was more urgent, but she in fact injured him (in ignorance, but still), and the guard responded to that injury as if it were intentional because she believed it was.
Everyone here acted in ignorance and everyone is at least a bit at fault. The White Sky maybe a tad more, but not enough that it matters in terms of formal apologies. Either side apologizing without the other doing so would be unjust.
Black Noise
Curious
- Location
- About 1AU from Sol
He's a young guy who has an idea of The Way Things Are, and the Appropriate Way to Do Things, but while there's certainly factions within the MoI who would consider sabotage, he's not one of them seeing how he's literally just a greenhorn under Cao Chun, who is iirc not that type per Jiao.
Gotta say though, if you're this bad about handling a little unfriendly needling you're gonna have a bad time when we get down to the brass tacks of diplomacy, aka the art of cat-herding people who would rather shiv or rob the other blind than so much as sit together at the same table, let alone build the agreements and commitments that make societies function without constant bloodshed and strife. We're officially in the wonderful world of politics now in the unenviable position of Responsible Adult so get your paddle and set your expectations straight.
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- He/Him
Thing is neither of them was wrong but neither of them was right either. It was a losing situation no matter what happened. Either immediate explosion or poisoning the area. No matter what it's going to bring construction in that area to a halt.
Then the imperial builder did the spiritual equivalent of knocking someone hard enough to knock a tooth out and then had the physical form done to them.
Truly the only ones at fault here is the guard for meeting (perceived) force with force when they could have stopped it without injurying someone, us and our white sky counterpart for not learning and communicating cultural norms better, and the building planners for not catching this earlier.
Then the imperial builder did the spiritual equivalent of knocking someone hard enough to knock a tooth out and then had the physical form done to them.
Truly the only ones at fault here is the guard for meeting (perceived) force with force when they could have stopped it without injurying someone, us and our white sky counterpart for not learning and communicating cultural norms better, and the building planners for not catching this earlier.
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CedeTheBees
Probably high right now
- Location
- Somewhere
- Pronouns
- They/Them
Is it too late to go back and pick the cave hermit route?
Varder
Tired Cultist
- Location
- Hell
The phenomenon was described as "smoking malevolence". I do not agree that it would have been instant. Plus his sister was right fucking there he could have asked her to call someone if he couldn't leave himself.
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- Pronouns
- He/Him
It sounded to me like if he stopped for even a few moments the ingredients would begin degrading and could not be stopped thereafter. So sure, maybe they take a minute to be ruined, but they can't be salvaged so it's a distinction without a difference.
And I'm not at all clear the guard was right there. She got there real quick when he was touched, but she's a Third Realm, that could be from across the damn building. She could probably have heard him if he called but with her not directly in line of sight, he probably just didn't think of it, as he was focused on his task.
I'm not saying that he was right (I don't think anyone was wholly right here), but his actions are pretty understandable in context.
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Oh hey, there was a spiritual component to the harsh reaction from the guardswoman. Good to know.
The irony here is that the thing they disrespect about the Jin also puts the Jin closer to our attitude towards the world than I think anyone is willing to admit. It's a matter of perspectives. The Bai and Zheng think you should cultivate an identity independent from the throne, as that shows true strength. The Jin find it advantageous to co-opt the image and methods of the throne as a source of their own power and authority. This is not really a lesser exercise of sovereignty, and we can see from Jin Tae's expressed attitudes that the Jin are absolutely not simply guileless toadies following along in their boss's wake. They're simply seeking advantage on their own terms, drawing strength from cultural/political conditions that others take issue with, without letting those opinions dissuade them from their chosen course.
And we're the same way, choosing to build our project on a foundation of inter-polity relations despite the misgivings of others that those relations are too close, that they surrender too much. Truly, we and the Jin have much in common! Both of us are criticized for having a prideless over-friendliness with outsiders. That we surrender too much of ourselves for the benefit of others, forgetting, maybe even betraying, our roots. But that's a small-minded view. What we're actually doing is growing our roots deeper and more widely, into new soils.
It's not our fault if others don't recognize the opportunities we're grasping, but it may be to our benefit. Even if our detractors are an ironic case like the Jin, who aren't that dissimilar to us when you get down to it. Both of us pursue political projects that are looked down on by others. Both of us draw benefits from that skepticism, enjoying a less contested field. Dancing around the crusty old giants to pick at the juicy leftovers of the world is a venerable tradition, and one we share. The Jin might not recognize themselves in this analogy, but too bad nerds. You're just like us, except worse but with much more money. Which is also a classic tradition, and one I'm looking forward to us being on the other side of too, eventually.
This part is interesting. Combined with last update's bit about seeking advantage, and I think the Bai and the Zheng are really selling the Jin short in terms of ducal/founding clan gumption. They've got it. They're all-in on putting themselves on top, within their domain, they're just going about it in their own way. Same as the Bai or Zheng, or any other ruling clan, does.
The irony here is that the thing they disrespect about the Jin also puts the Jin closer to our attitude towards the world than I think anyone is willing to admit. It's a matter of perspectives. The Bai and Zheng think you should cultivate an identity independent from the throne, as that shows true strength. The Jin find it advantageous to co-opt the image and methods of the throne as a source of their own power and authority. This is not really a lesser exercise of sovereignty, and we can see from Jin Tae's expressed attitudes that the Jin are absolutely not simply guileless toadies following along in their boss's wake. They're simply seeking advantage on their own terms, drawing strength from cultural/political conditions that others take issue with, without letting those opinions dissuade them from their chosen course.
And we're the same way, choosing to build our project on a foundation of inter-polity relations despite the misgivings of others that those relations are too close, that they surrender too much. Truly, we and the Jin have much in common! Both of us are criticized for having a prideless over-friendliness with outsiders. That we surrender too much of ourselves for the benefit of others, forgetting, maybe even betraying, our roots. But that's a small-minded view. What we're actually doing is growing our roots deeper and more widely, into new soils.
It's not our fault if others don't recognize the opportunities we're grasping, but it may be to our benefit. Even if our detractors are an ironic case like the Jin, who aren't that dissimilar to us when you get down to it. Both of us pursue political projects that are looked down on by others. Both of us draw benefits from that skepticism, enjoying a less contested field. Dancing around the crusty old giants to pick at the juicy leftovers of the world is a venerable tradition, and one we share. The Jin might not recognize themselves in this analogy, but too bad nerds. You're just like us, except worse but with much more money. Which is also a classic tradition, and one I'm looking forward to us being on the other side of too, eventually.
And here we are playing around with our damaged Truth insight. I can imagine something like "all human truths are incomplet" or "it is possible for seemingly incompatible truths to exist without either being wrong." Picking the right thing here might be useful for the final boss.
There are so many witty comebacks to this. Possibly as simple as "perceived by the blind?", or more thoughtful "I know blind people [or spiders at least] who see more than you do."
Fortunately we're used to dealing with Shu Yue already.
- Location
- Chicago
- Pronouns
- She/They
I've done the poly-sci courses and the graduate business negotiation courses, it's exactly what is informing my perspective. So I think you are reading me backwards.
I actually rather like the Jin on a personal level, and if he and Xuan could get to a friendly rivalry stage I'd be quite happy bringing him into the friend group.
That doesn't change his incentives or his position. He is here to make sure imperial culture is not corrupted and foreigners don't get any useful military intelligence. A complete breakdown of talks fulfills both of those, and closes out the risk. A successful set of talks vastly exacerbates both of those risks.
So, he is incentivized to see them fail, the harder the better, as long as he gets no blame. Thus, motivation for sabotage. Basically the same as the general, but I think we got through to her.
But in truth both hiccups we've had are in places where imperial geomancers are actively working, and are failures that weren't errors in the moment: the foundations digging into the hole in the mountain was workers executing the plan they were given, likewise the build-out of the tiles that led to irreconcilable energies.
If there's a third geomancy plan error, I think we need to clean house. But I don't think there's any connection between the Jin and the potential sabotage yet; I'm just noting incentives.
TimEd
Meteor maker
I think I finally have an idea how to see Jin Tae personally.
From everything he's said and done, he seem like the stereotypical Jin first with MOI influence second rather than a MOI agent that came from the Jin. So I don't think all this 'aggression' is really him or the MOI wanting to mess with the endeavor, but more like a critic that is both greedy for the benefits but wanting none of the risks (Jin for greed MOI for risk aversion).
I think the dude just looks at this whole thing through the eyes of a "privateer" who were given orders to minimize or remove the risk of blowback. Jin Tae is just here speaking what he is saying because that is his way of talking. Like how we as readers would overlook a bit of crassness in speech when dealing with pirates/bandits/etc.
From everything he's said and done, he seem like the stereotypical Jin first with MOI influence second rather than a MOI agent that came from the Jin. So I don't think all this 'aggression' is really him or the MOI wanting to mess with the endeavor, but more like a critic that is both greedy for the benefits but wanting none of the risks (Jin for greed MOI for risk aversion).
I think the dude just looks at this whole thing through the eyes of a "privateer" who were given orders to minimize or remove the risk of blowback. Jin Tae is just here speaking what he is saying because that is his way of talking. Like how we as readers would overlook a bit of crassness in speech when dealing with pirates/bandits/etc.
[X] Seek a mutual apology. And better work practices, even if it delays construction and makes the hall a bit less grand. (Improves Mutual opinion between civilians. 20% Chance that project will come short of goals, reducing benefits. Loss of face if incomplete)
In my mind, there's no point to the first option. We have a guaranteed loss of face if we don't attempt to finish the project, while we only have a 20% chance of loss of face if we pick the second option. Also, building cool.
With regards to the third option, the question is about what type of negative events we're willing to risk. The meeting hall being slightly less grand seems like a much better alternative than risking an unknown negative event. Also, it would be cool if the civilians had a better opinion of each other for possible projects in the future.
In my mind, there's no point to the first option. We have a guaranteed loss of face if we don't attempt to finish the project, while we only have a 20% chance of loss of face if we pick the second option. Also, building cool.
With regards to the third option, the question is about what type of negative events we're willing to risk. The meeting hall being slightly less grand seems like a much better alternative than risking an unknown negative event. Also, it would be cool if the civilians had a better opinion of each other for possible projects in the future.
CedeTheBees
Probably high right now
- Location
- Somewhere
- Pronouns
- They/Them
[X] Seek a mutual apology. And better work practices, even if it delays construction and makes the hall a bit less grand. (Improves Mutual opinion between civilians. 20% Chance that project will come short of goals, reducing benefits. Loss of face if incomplete)
[X] Seek a mutual apology. And better work practices, even if it delays construction and makes the hall a bit less grand. (Improves Mutual opinion between civilians. 20% Chance that project will come short of goals, reducing benefits. Loss of face if incomplete)
The high level negotiators are mainly after factional goals and political advantage, and will not truly budge on something that doesn't touch their core interests.
The day to day worker interactions not imploding however, means we don't need to spread ourselves as thin putting out small fires.
Its not worth the reputation damage, especially given how many significant families are here to hear of it.
Poor civilian relations caused the problem here to begin with.
The high level negotiators are mainly after factional goals and political advantage, and will not truly budge on something that doesn't touch their core interests.
The day to day worker interactions not imploding however, means we don't need to spread ourselves as thin putting out small fires.
This is an analysis made without considering the costs on his end - being caught performing sabotage would torpedo both the Jin and the MoI's instititution level goals if caught.
Its not worth the reputation damage, especially given how many significant families are here to hear of it.
- Pronouns
- He/Him
[X] Seek a mutual apology. And better work practices, even if it delays construction and makes the hall a bit less grand. (Improves Mutual opinion between civilians. 20% Chance that project will come short of goals, reducing benefits. Loss of face if incomplete)
SleepyCaterpilar
Just a Rapariga
[X] Seek a mutual apology. Pull additional translators and workers for better rotation of shifts and hopefully keep the stress down. (20% chance of additional negative event during summit. Project definitely completes on time.)
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[X] Seek a mutual apology. Pull additional translators and workers for better rotation of shifts and hopefully keep the stress down. (Small chance of additional negative event during summit. Project definitely completes on time.)