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Threads Of Destiny(Eastern Fantasy, Sequel to Forge of Destiny)

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Yeah option 3 is the best imo. Our allies would agree and even if it's thumbing our nose a little at the sun it's a confident statement that I believe works well.

[X] To establish that there were more methods, more tools that could be used to build the Empire out than sword and fire, even as they showed the Emerald Seas was lacking in neither.
 
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[ ] Showing that the Wall could be tamed and that the Emerald Sea could pacify its own borders, and conduct itself as a province of the Empire no less than any other.

[ ] To establish that there were more methods, more tools that could be used to build the Empire out than sword and fire, even as they showed the Emerald Seas was lacking in neither.

leaning towards either of these 2
 
"Huh, never knew snakes could be housebroken."
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Okay what the fuck. There's insulting people with your choice of clothes, and then there's this. Is Liling's brain even more Sunflower-fried than we thought, or is she this stupid on her own? I think even the people who hope the summit crashes and burns would be appalled by her behaviour, if only because of how boorish it is.
 
Sure would be nice if we could say "none of your business."

Also, is this what Ling Qi says, or the entirety of what she intends?
 
Also I'm impressed by how far Ling Qi has come. She's not perfect, and even now it's clear she likes sneaky stuff and music a lot more than being a diplomat*--and indeed Sixiang has definitely helped her with it in the past--but she shows a pretty solid grasp of things for someone who started as she did.

*And I'm happy with her staying that way.
 
yrsillar said:
"And I'm guessing you won't accept just splashing our color across the whole range south of the jungle huh?"
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"our" in that sentence doesn't refer to the political entity, but the Jungle herself.

Karthak Urzak said:
Okay what the fuck. There's insulting people with your choice of clothes, and then there's this. Is Liling's brain even more Sunflower-fried than we thought, or is she this stupid on her own? I think even the people who hope the summit crashes and burns would be appalled by her behaviour, if only because of how boorish it is.
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There's a reason CRX wouldn't have been mad at us if we'd had to use her authority to kick Liling out over that shit.
 
Winged One said:
"our" in that sentence doesn't refer to the political entity, but the Jungle herself.


There's a reason CRX wouldn't have been mad at us if we'd had to use her authority to kick Liling out over that shit.
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And she's doing this in front of Xuan and Zheng reps as well. Clearly Liling doesn't care about them writing home that the princess of the Sun is about as sophisticated as a piss-stained hobo. Sun Liling is a guest in the Cai's house, and is shitting on the carpet.
 
Karthak Urzak said:
And she's doing this in front of Xuan and Zheng reps as well. Clearly Liling doesn't care about them writing home that the princess of the Sun is about as sophisticated as a piss-stained hobo. Sun Liling is a guest in the Cai's house, and is shitting on the carpet.
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She might think that just because the Zheng don't care about ettiquette, they also don't care about her acting like a huge asshole. And I'm pretty sure Xuan are involved in the trade deal that started the Bai-Cai alliance? It's been a while, and I don't trust my memory.
 
Uh, no, the Zheng care a lot about Guest-Right and how that sort of thing works. They're chill about most things, but Guest-Right is something they take very seriously.

Which is why the winning play here is to smile, nod, and put up with her shit while sticking to the letter of being a Good Hostess.
 
Zheng Fu let out a bellowing laugh. "That's the stuff! Hah, it's good for even newbie dukes to stand up for themselves! Gotta know when to cut the shit and lay down your house rules."

His laugh shattered the tension thoroughly.

***

Guest Rights include "The Right for Guests to go fuck themselves and leave if the person running the house wants them gone and has cause."
 
Alectai said:
Uh, no, the Zheng care a lot about Guest-Right and how that sort of thing works. They're chill about most things, but Guest-Right is something they take very seriously.

Which is why the winning play here is to smile, nod, and put up with her shit while sticking to the letter of being a Good Hostess.
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Ah, right. You can see why I mistrust my memory now.

...maybe she hasn't learned a goddamn thing about politics?
 
Alectai said:
Uh, no, the Zheng care a lot about Guest-Right and how that sort of thing works. They're chill about most things, but Guest-Right is something they take very seriously.

Which is why the winning play here is to smile, nod, and put up with her shit while sticking to the letter of being a Good Hostess.
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Totally agreed...but do the Sun know that? The Zheng have been very non-interventionist for a long time and have a reputation for not caring about etiquette, while the Sun are brand new and lack allies of any great antiquity (both the Jin and the current Imperial dynasty, who are the closest they've got to allies are also new compared to, like, the Bai and Zheng), so do the Sun, and particularly Sun Liling personally, understand the distinction there well enough to predict the Zheng reaction with any accuracy?

I'm thinking evidence says they don't.
 
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Alectai said:
Uh, no, the Zheng care a lot about Guest-Right and how that sort of thing works. They're chill about most things, but Guest-Right is something they take very seriously.
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Yeah, it's one of the Big Things of their clan. Their fricking Sublime Ancestor even goes around checking if it's upheld.

"It is not the commotion which troubles me, this is a training hall," her father said mildly.
Gu Xiulan remained as she was, head bowed, hands clasped. She could tell he was not done. Zheng Nan turned to face her father as well, his expression guileless.
"It is not, however, a proper place for a spar with guests," her father continued, turning his eyes to Zheng Nan.
"Ah well, my curiosity got the better of me," he chuckled. "Your daughter is really loud, you know."
Gu Xiulan felt sweat beading on the back of her neck as the temperature in the room crept upward. She chanced a glance upward, and found her fathers face impassive and cold.
"Nonetheless, son of Zhi, I have broken your fast, given to you my wine, will you skulk in my cellars and thieve from my pantry?"
Zheng Nan's easy smile dropped away and he straightened up, losing his slouching posture. "I've done no such thing."
"Yet here you stand, in a part of my palace reserved for kin alone," her father replied. "I forgive this, for surely you were only lost in your wandering."
[...]
"How did you so quickly shame him?" she asked curiously, trying not to look at the way the wall behind where Zheng Nan had stood was shimmering with heat, distorted and rippled where stone had begun to melt.
"In my youth I traveled a great deal, including the Zheng lands. There are certain privileges accorded to a formal host, by even the most rambunctious of the stone ape's kin," Father said, returning to stroking his beard as he regarded her. "The trouble is they have very exacting definitions of formal hosting, which may give them wide leeway with the uninformed. Some are honorable and hew close regardless, some are not, as with all men. Do not be fooled by their attitudes my daughter, the Zheng have traditions as strong and hidebound as any ancient clan."
 
Hmm. So. What is the Sun's play, now that they have assured themselves of the continued support of the goddess? War on the Bai, eventually, but how are they going to set it up?
 
This is like, core fundamental culture to anyone who's ever spent any time in Ebon Rivers at all. The only way you'd miss it is if you straight up ignored the Zheng as a cultural group.

Now, she might not understand it, but she should certainly know it. Sun Liling is not stupid, she's being provocative so she can get us to expel her, which then gets leveraged into them Doing What They Want Without Consequence because clearly we're not interested in cooperating.

We just need to challenge her worldview but put up with her shit as much as possible, because her walking out and then the Sun Doing What They Want turns them into the asshole in the public eye.
 
DeadmanwalkingXI said:
Totally agreed...but do the Sun know that? The Zheng have been very non-interventionist for a long time and have a reputation for not caring about etiquette, while the Sun are brand new and lack allies of any great antiquity (both the Jin and the current Imperial dynasty, who are the closest they've got to allies are also new compared to, like, the Bai and Zheng), so do the Sun, and particularly Sun Liling personally, understand the distinction there well enough to predict the Zheng reaction with any accuracy?

I'm thinking evidence says they don't.
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Ji Rong is from the Ebon Rivers so he should definitely know at the very least.
 
Mmm, I think I'm favouring option 3 too. Trying to continue to hide our cards, especially in our discussions with key peers here, just strikes me as kind of boring?

We're going to be dealing with Sun Liling and others for a long time. Putting the philosophical conflicts out there so they can actually be engaged with strikes me as just more interesting than beating around the bush.

Better we just come out and say #TsuWasRight
 
yrsillar said:
"I want to hear your own words, what to do you want out of this.
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BeepSmile: "To see your face smashed repeatedly into a cliff wall until a) I'm satisfied in the short term. b) you stop being an antagonising little shit.*"

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*Ok, I know that violence does not teach that lesson, because the lesson taught will involve 'don't be antagonising around this person, or they will smash your face into a cliff' rather than 'it is better to not be antagonistic, and here's why [ethical framework]'.
Butttt. If (when) the face-smashing fails to teach a good lesson, what if we try more violence?

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[Also, Sun Liling is a great villain/opponent in this story, especially with her... morality pet? person we sorta care-ish about; Ji Rong there being worried about/for her. Humanising her to us via her connection to him.
Very well developed.
I fucking hate her. ]

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And there is no good sensical thing that occurs to me right now that will satisfy my current emotional response. Her part in this is going to be... anger inducing going forward, and will resolve via slow growth, or end in the tragedy of a (i.e. her) life ended, or she just fucks off from the narrative leaving things open (I doubt this will happen as such would be hard? impossible? to make satisfying).

I hate that antagonistic bitch and regardless of how good she might be as a character (and she is a great character) I want her gone.

Do you know who I miss? Gu Xiulan, who is wonderful and kind and has never done anything wrong in her life. Ever.
 
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Speaking of guest-right, we've got Zheng Fu by the balls if he tries some shit again.
It was the better part of thirty minutes later when she finished. The refreshments on the table were quite depleted, mostly by Zheng Fu, but touched by others. "And that concludes what I can tell you of our guests at the moment. Of course, I would like to thank Sir Xuan for helping me make sense of and organize this."
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He's eaten our food. Now he'll better behave himself, or else.
 
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Alectai said:
This is like, core fundamental myth to anyone who's ever spent any time in Ebon Rivers at all.
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Totally agreed if any of them went there and dealt with the Zheng...have any of the Sun done that? Probably. Particularly any of the Sun making policy decisions? Maybe. Very particularly any of the Sun who briefed Sun Liling on her way here? Very possibly not.

Like, we're talking about one teenager sent here to deal with a variety of people on relatively short notice who may not have even been aware a Zheng was gonna be here. I don't think this is common knowledge in the Sun and she may not have been properly briefed.

Alectai said:
Now, she might not understand it, but she should certainly know it. Sun Liling is not stupid, she's being provocative so she can get us to expel her, which then gets leveraged into them Doing What They Want Without Consequence because clearly we're not interested in cooperating.

We just need to challenge her worldview but put up with her shit as much as possible, because her walking out and then the Sun Doing What They Want turns them into the asshole in the public eye.
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I agree with this entirely, I'm just not sure she's fully aware of the repercussions of this strategy in regards to Zheng opinion specifically.

Elsecaller said:
Ji Rong is from the Ebon Rivers so he should definitely know at the very least.
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Ji Rong was a street gang member who probably never met a Zheng. Does he? Anyone who deals with the Ebon Rivers nobility would, but Ji Rong was openly contemptuous of the nobility when he got to the Sect, I'm not at all sure he knows much about the actual governing of his home province or the culture of the Zheng. Certainly not in an unbiased way given his history.
 
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