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Set genetic research up to the same kinds of international oversight and regulation as nuclear weapon stuff. Like, yeah, using it for helpful things is great but if you're doing bad stuff with it there will be hell to pay.
 
To be clear I meant the treaty would cover ALL genetic research using these tools and techniques not some. So if a country tries to do genetics research they need to open it up to international inspections or face penalties ranging from economic sanctions to regime change. You don't get to say the species you're creating isn't smart enough, that's a (multi-)species wide concern.
What I'm getting at is that if someone claims a genetic engineering project will result in mere farm animals or designer pets at least two someones needs to go in and make sure they are telling the truth.
 
If anything, I feel the issue is less the creation of new human species and more the potential for people to try and use this as a way to game other human rights violations. The classic argument of "it's not slavery as they want to work for free." Really, rather than a blanket ban, we just need restrictions making sure that any created beings are not designed to be more vulnerable to exploitation. Pair that with some sort of international law declaring that any created species are irrevocably citizens of the nation that sponsored/hosted their creation and we can basically let current international law and human rights declarations cover the rest.
 
[X] Plan: Inhumanism
-[X] [Who will be sent?] Onishi Uma & Co.


She did a good job with the Iwo Jima, and I want to see more of her.
Obviously we'd send along a retinue of lawyers, biologists, ethicists, etc.

-[X] [Meet-Up] CyPac/USSR/(India?), East Germany, West Germany, USA

I don't want to overwhelm HC, so I'm limiting the number of folks we talk to.
First off, CyPac, the USSR, and possibly India (I think they're likely to stick with the Reds, but we won't get to that until the China part of Laogai) are gonna hash out a bunch of stuff ahead of time in order to present a united front.

We're also going to talk to East Germany to see if they've been able to uncover anything about the situation - it's long odds, but maybe there was a side lab or some records kept in East Germany before the Soviets captured it.

West Germany we have to sound out on what happened and what they plan to do? We're particularly interested in what they intend to do with all the ancillary bioscience - are they going to horde it for themselves, or is the medical technology going to be shared?

The USA I mostly want to talk to to see what their diplomats want out of this whole mess, so that we're not caught too off guard.

-[X] [Questions - Congress]
--[X] What's the history of the Nazi genetic engineering project?
--[X] How much effort (in terms of resources and man hours) was used to create the wolf people?
--[X] By what process was the genetic enegineering accomplished? Nobody has even mapped the human genome yet, for crying out loud.
--[X] What ancillary technologies and techniques were developed to make the process possible?
--[X] Why canines? Why the hybridization? Why not just enhance human physiology directly?
--[X] How many Wolfsmen (this is shorter, I'm using this) are there?
--[X] Is West Germany going to guarantee them the same rights as all its human citizens?

-[X] [Questions - Wolfsmenschen]
--[X] What was their life growing up?
--[X] What do they think about the world they've entered into? What about the world have they been exposed too?
--[X] What do they (or at least the representatives present) want out of all this? What justice, what reparations? How can we help you right now?

Ok, other people suggest some questions here.

-[X] [Are Homo Lupus Human?]
--[X] That is the wrong question. The better question is: why does it matter?


Why should they be human? What right does this assembly have to decide what is and is not worthy of dignity and respect, like some Victorian aristocrat-scholar measuring skulls? Because that's what this definition is really about: drawing lines in the sand and saying that you're not a person if you don't fit our expectations.
What if we create sapient computer programs? Or little green men from space come by to say hi? Or humpback whales turn out to be sapient? Are we gonna have a little skull measuring party every time a new form of sapient life comes around?

To quote Amorous Intent:

Humanism is liberal because it draws from the same well of ideals as John Locke, an Enlightenment-era thinker who was foundational to liberalism, and in fact, it actually hews closer today to those ideals than liberalism does. Humanism is idealist not because it promises that things could be better maybe if we just work hard enough, but because it forms its ideas without regard to the material conditions and then imposes those ideas on physical reality, rather than extracting principles observed from the material world. This stands in contrast to historical materialism & physicalism, which assert that material conditions shape our minds rather than the other way around.

If you're wondering how it took on the fascistic connotations it does in Tyrants, well, the fascism was in the House liberalism all along. Humanism has a fundamentally anthropocentric, universalizing character to it, defining rights as a thing that is fundamental strictly to humans. Since at least the Enlightenment, if not earlier, "human" meant the straight, white, cis, landowning male, and universalized outward from that narrow definition. This generalization has always been conditional on approved behavior, and is swiftly retracted when you become inconvenient. It's rarely ever spelled out so plainly, but it's not enough that you must act white, act straight-passing, go stealth to avoid being dehumanized, you must also dehumanize the brown, queer, the non-binary yourself to reinforce your position in the hierarchy and show that you're truly integrated into the humanist kyriarchy. But that's today's humanist liberal order. What about the future?

Tyrants asks the question, "What if people took the prescriptions Francis Fukuyama laid out in Our Posthuman Future and got militant about it?" Fukuyama asserts that anything and everything not fully human, whether that be posthumans, AGI, uplifts, or cyborgs, can and should be treated as subhuman, enslaved, tortured, exploited, and abused as necessary to provide humans with better living. Where Fukuyama prescribes this as a solution to preserve the neoliberal order and the end of history, (post-Meltdown) Nick Land observes that what he calls hyper-racism will happen anyways as a consequence of the accelerating feedback mechanisms in society reacting to augmentation and furthering the siloing between humans and the variously augmented. The end result of this siloing and increasing militancy is fascism, crushing the "degenerate" and the subhuman augment out of the fear of their slow loss of power and the projection that the Enemy will commit the same oppressions, the same horrors on the Humanists as soon as the Other gains power.

The trends that will create this fascistic Humanism are already visible in today's strains of Humanism.

The animal liberation movement and the voluntary human extinction movements both start from humanist morals, extending the definition of "human" to animals, which necessitates coming up with tests of "humanness" to assert that these particular animals and not others are worthy of receiving extended human rights, typically taking some measure of sentience and sapience. But there can be no measure of sentience and sapience that includes all humans and excludes livestock, or even successfully excludes all flora. If humans cannot survive fully extending the umbrella of human rights to animals, the voluntary human extinction movement asserts that thus humans are the problem and must die for nature to live.

Transhumanism is humanism, simplified. It extends human rights to the transhuman, but the moment you look into the discourse around transhumanism, it is rife with arguments over who and what qualifies as properly transhuman versus the inhuman. If we do not exclude the inhuman, transhumanists say, they in their alien mindsets will visit upon us such horrors that have never been seen by white man, only perpetrated by him. Yudkowsky's own assertion in the linked article, that removing exceptions and limitations can only be a good thing, eventually led him down the rabbit hole of trying to formalize human morality and founding a cult of rationality. Without exceptions and limitations, he had no means of checking whether his moral assertions actually made any sense, because he rejected intuition right alongside them.

We can also see the flipside of these in TERFs and the GOP today. Where transhumanists and animal liberationists seek to extend the umbrella of human rights, they seek its retraction, dehumanizing trans*, queer, and brown people, and as with all fascists, Jewish people as well. The European groups also actively dehumanize Roma, but that's never particularly been particularly prominent in the American ones. If the umbrella of human rights is retracted, they can secure their place in the racial hierarchy at the low, low cost of the lives of the millions of people they've already made into monsters in their minds.

Centering (the cis, white, heterosexual, landowning conception of) the human has always been the fatal flaw of humanism. It asserts the human as good, and all others can only exist in relation to the "human," either by conditional acceptance or by contrast as monsters. Yet throughout history it's always been the human who is responsible for the great depravities, dehumanizing the other as a means of making it easier to steal from them, kill them, and grind them under your boot. Much as in Mary Shelly's Frankenstein, it's not the Creature who is the monster, but Victor Frankenstein himself. The monsters are innocent, and humanity, proclaiming its innocence, the monster.

So why should I apologize for being a monster? Society has never apologized for making me into one.

>> If we do not exclude the inhuman, transhumanists say, they in their alien mindsets will visit upon us such horrors that have never been seen by white man, only perpetrated by him.

This line fucking slaps.

-[X] [Ban/Condem Sapient Gene Creation]
--[X] No, genetic engineering is a tool that can be used for tremendous good - this attempt to ban the technology is nothing but another attempt to enclose and restrict the means of production in order to maintain the status quo as it serves those already in power.


PS. HC, I am going to have to reach for the spray bottle if you're saying that something like Homo Lupus is repeatable without an absolutely hilarious, multiple-Manhattan-project sized investments into genetic research. I am willing to suspend suspension of disbelief through a combination of Setting Weirdness, luck so good it counts as divine intervention, and the sort of war crimey research we can expect from the Third Reich, but anything more is too much.
 
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PS. HC, I am going to have to reach for the spray bottle if you're saying that something like Homo Lupus is repeatable without an absolutely hilarious, multiple-Manhattan-project sized investments into genetic research.
No, not the spray bottle! NOT THE SPRAY BOTTLE!!!

:V

But ye, you'll be sitting on figuring out how to understand the gathered technologies for the next 20 or so years before you can even attempt at making, like, cosmetic modifications on a scale above different colored hair/eyes/skin.
CyberEnby said:
How many Wolfsmen (this is shorter, I'm using this) are there?
IIRC I've already written that out...somewhere in the thread, with around 937 Lupi (Wolfsmenschen will be called Lupus = Singular, Lupi = Plural in Updates) being currently known to exist.

Also, I feel slightly called out with the Humanist post, considering my main Quest is all about a Humanist Cult...:cry:
(I swear bro, they are inclusionary, it makes sense internally, language drift and cultural differences in-universe are to blame. You have to believe me bro!)

:V
 
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Can you include my suggestion?

So how do you lot feel about dogs being pets to Sapiens? Is it weird or honoring that the first species we... uplifted(?) is one we consider our best friend as the saying goes?

but yeah i like your suggestions more I didn't know we could get that creative with the answers...

Question feels kinda racist? I'd feel weird asking that in a public venue like this.
 
My suggestions for questions:
[] [Questions - Wolfsmenschen]
-[] What was their life growing up?
-[] What do they think about the world they've entered into? What about the world have they been exposed too?
-[] So how do you lot feel about dogs being pets to Sapiens? Is it weird or honoring that the first species we... uplifted(?) is one we consider our best friend as the saying goes?
(Not sure if "uplifting" is right here--did they modify wolves with human genes or humans with wolf genes?)
-[] What do they (or at least the representatives present) want out of all this? What justice, what reparations? How can we help you right now?
 
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