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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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Mopman43 said:
I imagine Kalita doesn't have a section of his own?

Even by the time of Katarin he was decidedly minor.
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Rafin said:
Where does Kalita factor in? Benign spirits?
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Worship in Kalita is fairly widespread but entirely decentralized. Pretty much every community is reliant to some extent on imports and exports and Kalita is the one to pray to if those goods arriving safely is in doubt, but He has no temples or clergy, so there's not really any writing on Him.
 
I hope we get a quiet turn soonish so we can spend more than one action on the library. Plodding along at one action a turn is a little slow and there's a lot of cool stuff that can be done with it.
 
Nerdasaurus Rex said:
I hope we get a quiet turn soonish so we can spend more than one action on the library. Plodding along at one action a turn is a little slow and there's a lot of cool stuff that can be done with it.
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I do not think that will ever happen. Not that I am against it but we have such a research backlog, self improvement, incoming events, waystone actions, and elf actions that the library is not a big deal. Unless it is book mine which looks like a mini adventure/treasure hunt.
 
Nurgle said:
I do not think that will ever happen. Not that I am against it but we have such a research backlog, self improvement, incoming events, waystone actions, and elf actions that the library is not a big deal. Unless it is book mine which looks like a mini adventure/treasure hunt.
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Yeah, I know. It's an inherent design feature of the quest that the amount of cool stuff we can do will always outweigh the number of actions we have (and I wouldn't have it any other way).
 
Boney said:
Added:

The Gods of Kislev
The Ancient Widow +0
Ursun, the Great Bear +0
Tor, God of Thunder and Lightning +0
Dazh, God of Fire and Sun +0
Salyak, Goddess of Healing and Comfort +0
Benign Spirits of Kislev +0
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Would it be useful to you if one of us were to offer epithets for the Dwarven Ancestor-Gods section of our library? I've noticed, especially now with the Kislevite categories being put up as possibilities, that god library categories typically have descriptors attached; the dwarf ones do not, which may be deliberate, but at the same time I do not want to be like "Hey Boney you should do more work" if it turns out this is bug and not feature, hence the question.
 
[x] [HOUSE] Yes
[x] Plan how many people can actually read elf anyways?
- [x] [SCOPE] The Empire (+2)
- [x] [REP] Magical Theorist (-2)
- [x] [FORM] Dedication (0)
[x] [HEDGEWISE] Discreetly
 
[x] Plan how many people can actually read elf anyways?
- [x] [SCOPE] The Empire (+2)
- [x] [REP] Magical Theorist (-2)
- [x] [FORM] Dedication (0)
 
StormySky said:
Would Halétha be covered by this if She had any presence in the Shirokij?
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Most likely. The lower end of what the Empire calls Gods has a lot of overlap with the upper end of what Kislev calls spirits.

picklepikkl said:
Would it be useful to you if one of us were to offer epithets for the Dwarven Ancestor-Gods section of our library? I've noticed, especially now with the Kislevite categories being put up as possibilities, that god library categories typically have descriptors attached; the dwarf ones do not, which may be deliberate, but at the same time I do not want to be like "Hey Boney you should do more work" if it turns out this is bug and not feature, hence the question.
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It's deliberate. Grungni is the God of Having Been Grungni. His domain is not demarcated by concepts, it is defined by the life and times of the being of flesh and blood known as Grungni when He walked the world, including the children He fathered, raised, and taught. He's not the Ancestor God of, say, Mining because he has some conceptual link to stone or ore, but because there was a time when He was down there in the shafts with a pickaxe, and the lessons He taught to those that lived at the same time as Him are the foundations of the Karaz Ankor's modern mining techniques.
 
Boney said:
It's deliberate. Grungni is the God of Having Been Grungni. His domain is not demarcated by concepts, it is defined by the life and times of the being of flesh and blood known as Grungni when He walked the world, including the children He fathered, raised, and taught. He's not the Ancestor God of, say, Mining because he has some conceptual link to stone or ore, but because there was a time when He was down there in the shafts with a pickaxe, and the lessons He taught to those that lived at the same time as Him are the foundations of the Karaz Ankor's modern mining techniques.
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I'm currently imagining the Ancestor-Gods as being the cast of an 80s family sitcom, only they're credited as being acted by themselves.
 
@Boney Since a lot of what the Empire would call minor gods are classified as particularly powerful benevolent spirits in Kislev, do Kislevite "Minor Gods of the Old World" books still exist, or is anything relevant to that filed under "Benign Spirits of Kislev"?

And speaking of "Minor Gods of the Old World", is it accurate to say that each country's books only cover their own local gods, rather than touching on everything on the continent just with less detail given to foreign minor gods?
 
StormySky said:
@Boney Since a lot of what the Empire would call minor gods are classified as particularly powerful benevolent spirits in Kislev, do Kislevite "Minor Gods of the Old World" books still exist, or is anything relevant to that filed under "Benign Spirits of Kislev"?
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The latter.

StormySky said:
And speaking of "Minor Gods of the Old World", is it accurate to say that each country's books only cover their own local gods, rather than touching on everything on the continent just with less detail given to foreign minor gods?
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There'd be books that touch on everything, often written as resources for Witch Hunters because there's a fair bit of crossover for some minor Gods. The Empire, Bretonnia, Tilea and Estalia have had about three thousand years for their pantheons to bleed into each other, while only Kislev are relative newcomers. This makes it easy for Gods to hop across the borders, and knowing that Il Grungnio is not a problem but this Sconduino guy needs to be suppressed sharpish can save a lot of time and trouble.
 
If there's one "Minor God" that gets around, it's the God of Merchants, which might or might not be the same guy or different people. In the Empire, it's Handrich. In the Wasteland, it's Haendryk (and he's a Major God there). In Kislev, he's Kalita. In Bretonnia, he's Affairiche. In Tilea, he's Mercopio. In Estalia, he's O Prospero. I suppose Ranald "The Dealer" could perhaps be considered a part of this as well.
 
StormySky said:
Are they fully aware that this is an alternative name for Gunndred, or are they just going "oh yikes, our foreign contacts say this is a brutal thug cult, no way do I want that hanging around"?
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It was an example, I haven't actually worldbuilt the relationship between the Witch Hunters of a country the quest has never gone to and a God the quest has never encountered.
 
What do the books say of the Witch Hunters? And I'm not talking about the mercenaries and thugs hired by nobles to rough people up or burn them on a cross with no significant training. What do the books say of the official, state sanctioned Witch Hunters sponsored by Magnus? This is what Realms of Sorcery 2E Page 133 says:

After the creation of the Colleges of Magic, Magnus limited the power of these Witch Hunters with one hand while ostensibly extending it with the other. He made the Holy Order the official, Imperial-state sanctioned and funded inquisitors of the Empire. The Cults of Morr and Ulric also still have their religious investigators, but these are run by the cults themselves and although tolerated, they are not state-sanctioned and do not have the numbers, funding, or training of the Holy Order of Templars. Indeed, on paper at least, these organisations would have to defer to a state-sanctioned Witch Hunter while on Imperial soil—this has led to rivalry and resentment from some quarters. The Witch Hunters of other religions could instead be seen as various sorts of Templars and exorcists, not Witch Hunters in the sense that is being used here.

The reforms Emperor Magnus brought in charged Witch Hunters to work within the law: they could no longer serve as prosecutor, jury, judge, and executioner, or, at least, not with the frequency and freedom that they used to. They have the power to arrest any imperial citizen they believe is guilty of Witchery or Daemonworship, and can call for that person to be tried at once—a request very few town councils refuse. The accused has the right to a fair trial, although the definition of fair varies from place to place.

The Templars always serve as prosecutors in such a trial, and since there are no laws about sticking strictly to evidence, some use oratory, implication, suspicion, and even veiled threats to persuade a lord, judge, or magistrate (and jury, if there is one) of the accused's guilt. If found guilty, the usual sentence for the accused is death by burning—thought to be the only way to destroy the body and purge its foul spirit at the same time.

No Templar would ever use arcane magic to fulfil their duties. They are taught magic is a force of Chaos, and to use it against the thing that created it would be like fighting a fire by dousing it with oil. Partly as a result of this, many Witch Hunters believe all magic users are tainted with Chaos in some way—even Collegiate Magisters.

To become a Templar Witch Hunter, a person must join the one of the Holy Order's chapter houses. There are many of them all over the Empire, but authorisations to join are not granted freely. Some chapters train Witch Hunters and monitor them closely; others grant licences to anyone who seems qualified and motivated. In some of the northernmost regions of the Empire, Witch Hunters are widely thought to be out of control, but then such are the dangers the Empire faces that these few think their actions wholly justified.
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Please note a few things. First, the quoted passage seems pretty extreme, but that is to be expected since the writers can barely restrain themselves when they're talking of Witch Hunters. A reminder that Boney is generally less extreme when it comes to the setting's facets. What caught my eye that is just a blatant "wtf" thing is the whole "No Templar would ever use Arcane Magic to fulfil their duties".

Remember that Realms of Sorcery is the book that introduced the actual wording of the Articles of Magic, which includes this Article:
Boney said:
14. All Magisters are required to render such aid as is deemed necessary to the Holy Orders of the Templars of Sigmar, should said Templars provide satisfactory proof that the servant of malignancy they face is beyond their capacity to capture or destroy without magical means.
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And I'm pretty sure this Article is what forms the basis of the non-adverserial relationship DL's Templars and Magisters have with each other:
Boney said:
As long as you abide by the Articles of Imperial Magic, without solid evidence of your wrongdoing they cannot touch you without getting in a world of shit. 'All eight Colleges threatening to declare war on Stirland' levels of shit. 'The Emperor himself asking what the fuck is going on over there' levels of shit. If there is one thing that the Colleges will move heaven and earth to prevent, it's the precedent that members of the College in good standing can be victimized by Witch Hunters. Besides that, Magisters legally have all the rights and protections of nobility, and as a Journeywoman you are under the protection of your Master - besides which, you actually are a noble.

I cannot emphasize it enough: THIS IS NOT 40K. It takes more than someone pointing and shouting 'heresy' to be murdered by the Witch Hunters.

Here is the legal status between the Witch Hunters (aka the Templars of Sigmar) and members of the Colleges of Magic:

14. All Magisters are required to render such aid as is deemed necessary to the Holy Orders of the Templars of Sigmar, should said Templars provide satisfactory proof that the servant of malignancy they face is beyond their capacity to capture or destroy without magical means.

You aren't their prey. You're their backup.
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With that in mind, feel free to pick over the quote if you like.
 
StormySky said:
Would Halétha be covered by this if She had any presence in the Shirokij?
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Boney said:
Most likely. The lower end of what the Empire calls Gods has a lot of overlap with the upper end of what Kislev calls spirits.
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If the Ostermark Hedgewise worship Halétha then it might be the case that they think of her as a spirit rather than a God. Perhaps that is why they are a mystery cult? If they worship the spirit of the Forest of Shadows rather than the God of the Forest of Shadows, would the distinction would be heretical to their Ostland and Nordland kin or something?

@Boney is there any known example of a Cult in the Empire worshipping a spirit, or does anything that gets worshipped gets to be called a God?
 
mathymancer said:
If the Ostermark Hedgewise worship Halétha then it might be the case that they think of her as a spirit rather than a God. Perhaps that is why they are a mystery cult? If they worship the spirit of the Forest of Shadows rather than the God of the Forest of Shadows, would the distinction would be heretical to their Ostland and Nordland kin or something?

@Boney is there any known example of a Cult in the Empire worshipping a spirit, or does anything that gets worshipped gets to be called a God?
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I can sort of answer that.
The Empire is full of a huge number of disparate people with only a vague sense of unity. The place is full of Gods, spirits, and entities that all demand worship. Beyond the scope of the nine "accepted" Gods, there exists an entire spectrum of minor Gods, some of which hearken to a bygone era, some of which are new, and a few are relatively new to the collective worship of locals. Most of the minor Gods can be summed up as either local deities specific to a particular town, burg, or province, or deities tied to rivers, forests, and other natural places. The difference between the two often depends on whom you ask.

Localised deities are just that—deities whose influence or reputation are rarely found beyond a few tens of miles, although some are recognised over greater distances. This is typical for certain types of deities associated with roads or trails, with small shrines scattered along their length. The line is often blurry between what is a true deity and what is some Venerated Soul from long ago, although the power and respect accorded is the same. The people that worship these local powers are typically extreme in their faith, and balk at the idea that they may be performing some form of heresy by their veneration, and often must fight long and hard in convincing travelling Witch Hunters that what they do is an act of devotion, rather than heresy.

Nature deities are far more common. Depending on who is asked, these deities are either minor aspects of Taal, Rhya, or Manann, some form of spirit that is mistakenly treated as a deity, or even a holdover deity whose roots lie with the Elves or Dwarfs. Nature deities are often associated with a sacred grove (or even an individual tree), cave, stream, or other place of natural beauty, might, and majesty. Others are actually nymphs, dryads, naiads, and other fey creatures mistakenly treated as if they were actual Gods. If a person believes in a particular nature deity, he's likely to leave an offering to both the God in question and also to Taal and Rhya, giving all of them honour. The rites demanded by these deities can seem ludicrous and anachronistic for the nonbeliever, but carry immense weight for those that believe in their power. For example, a local river God may demand an offering of a virginal sow, the cut hair of three maidens, and the blood of a black rooster once a year, lest it rises from its bank and flood the surrounding landscape.

Regardless of whether you're dealing with local or nature deities, outsiders may believe these demands have little weight, but for locals, performing the necessary rites and sacrifices carry great importance. It's not unheard of for a normal, unassuming citizen of the Empire to run afoul of the demands and edicts of one of these Gods, often without their knowledge, to which the locals set things straight. Thus, a stranger who visits some far-flung province may become a sacrifice to these Gods, mainly due to ignorance rather than outright intent in committing some grave offence.
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From Tome of Salvation 2E Page 80.

There are also Ancestor Spirits from Page 82:
Family and lineage are extremely important in the Old World. The proud members of the various tribes that formed the Empire take their genealogy very seriously and most hold their ancestors in high regard. To show them honour, almost every home in the Old World has a small shrine or sacred space where mementos, small statues, and other keepsakes are displayed. These ancestors are called upon along with the deities, to bring good fortune, bountiful crops, and other positive effects to a family. While most call simply on the collective force of the entire familial line, those families that are blessed with a particularly famous ancestor consider themselves extremely lucky and speak their name often during their prayers. Nobles in particular hold their ancestors in high regard. The wealthiest build shrines and temples that can even rival those of the deities, which is often viewed with suspicion by cultists who feel that this hubris is unwise and disrespectful.

Human communities living close to Dwarf settlements take this practise to an extreme. The citizens of Wissenland, eastern Averland, and Ostermark have often been accused of paying more homage to their departed kin rather than the living Gods. Dwarfs view this practise with a nodding sort of respect, and it's one of the reasons they and Humans can get along. However, Dwarfs often pity the short-lived Humans, who have so many more ancestors to pay homage to—one wonders how they can keep track!

The Halflings of the Empire also revere their families and ancestors, although they rarely erect shrines to honour those that have passed on—they would rather show respect for their departed kin through songs and hyperbolic stories. Indeed one method for sharpening one's memory (and a vital, if boring, lesson taught to all Halfling children) is reciting family members back as far as possible.

Elves hold their ancestors in high regard, but in no way do they venerate them in the same way that Humans or Dwarfs do. Because of their incredibly long lives, Elves are often in contact with their great or great-great grandparents long into their adulthood. When an Elf passes away, songs are sung and poetry is read, and the spirit of the departed is allowed to move on with little remorse. Humans often look askance at the blasé manner in which Elves speak of their ancestors, and Dwarfs find this attitude both rude and contemptible—this is just another reason why these two races find it so hard to get along.
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Overall, it's a more complicated matter than you might think. The Empire has a tendency to refer to anything they worship as either a deity or as an aspect of an existing God, even if they're paying respects to an actual spirit or Venerated Soul.
 
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Codex said:
What caught my eye that is just a blatant "wtf" thing is the whole "No Templar would ever use Arcane Magic to fulfil their duties".
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A certain gentleman by the name of Victor Saltzpyre does leap to mind.

mathymancer said:
If the Ostermark Hedgewise worship Halétha then it might be the case that they think of her as a spirit rather than a God. Perhaps that is why they are a mystery cult? If they worship the spirit of the Forest of Shadows rather than the God of the Forest of Shadows, would the distinction would be heretical to their Ostland and Nordland kin or something?

@Boney is there any known example of a Cult in the Empire worshipping a spirit, or does anything that gets worshipped gets to be called a God?
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It's generally believed and mostly accepted that a lot of the things that are worshipped as Gods are actually nature spirits, minor aspects of Major Gods, Saints with forgotten origins, blurred holdovers from the Elves or Dwarves, and other miscellaneous beings. What the actual difference is between each of those and actual 'Minor Gods' is a matter of a lot of debate but not much actual importance. As long as they're not actually Daemons and worshipping them isn't encouraging the breaking of any of the Empire's laws, it's not really that big a deal if Averland's God of Farts is actually a wind spirit. If they get big enough to matter, then the Major Gods will be able to identify whatever they actually are and bring them into line. Until then, safer to call them a 'God', because nobody will mind overmuch if you call a jumped-up nature spirit a God, but an actual God will care a very great deal if you misidentify them as a mere naiad.
 
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I guess what I'm getting at is that the Ostermark Hedgefolk might be influenced enough by Kislevite culture to consider the spirit of the Forest of Shadows a spirit even though they worship her. If so, would this be a distinction without diffrence to their Haléthan kin, or a grave offense? This is mostly idle speculation, we don't really know enough about the attitudes of the Haléthan Hedgefolk at this point. Maybe we'll get an answer to this question when we talk to Aksel.
 
Boney said:
A certain gentleman by the name of Victor Saltzpyre does leap to mind.
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Depending on your interpretation of canon, Victor could be seen as a "soft" Witch Hunter. Personally I think he's an incredibly nuanced character and should be an example of how Witch Hunters should be portrayed if they're not supposed to be an antagonistic force.
Boney said:
it's not really that big a deal if Averland's God of Farts is actually a wind spirit.
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Ah, Sheirrich the Lost Wind:

"In Averland, whenever someone scents a foul odour in the air, they are quick to exclaim "Sheirrich's Broken Wind!" The last person in the group to say it is believed to have created the stink whether they have or not, resulting in gales of laughter from their fellows."

Tome of Salvation is a very serious book.
 
Boney said:
A certain gentleman by the name of Victor Saltzpyre does leap to mind.
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Codex said:
Depending on your interpretation of canon, Victor could be seen as a "soft" Witch Hunter. Personally I think he's an incredibly nuanced character and should be an example of how Witch Hunters should be portrayed if they're not supposed to be an antagonistic force.
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IIRC a pretty big part of his character in the first game is trying to ensure Sienna gets a fair and proper trial, combined with his personal conflicts about the priorities of his superiors and peers in regards to how they go about their job. In the second game I believe that's an explanation for options like him leaving to become a bounty hunter, eventually getting a promotion off of merit since they can't justify not doing it after a time, or just going full fanatic.

But, yeah. Saltzpyre certainly is the most suspicious of magic out of the group, but he's at least willing to give it a shot, would rather use magic to destroy magic if that's what is needed and ultimately considers it the infinitely lesser evil than pretty much anything else in the face of Skaven and Chaos.

Which is fairly impressive considering his line of work and adventuring leads him to the sort of places that would prompt him to gain the sort of hatred of magic many witch hunters seem to have innately, (like Drachenfels) but he manages to keep a nice lid on it.

Pologies, rambling. Point is I agree Codex he's a good example of a nuanced witch hunter, while still being a proper witch hunter (just his insane fervour is for the most part directed towards people who it is hard to argue aren't out to kill and destroy like Skaven Grey Seers and Nurgle Cultists.)

mmm side note I suppose, and I know there's probably no basis for this, but I've always felt it'd be a more interesting story if Sigmar didn't start off as the god of **** magic and just the god of **** greenskin shamanism and Necromancy in particular, which eventually metamorphosed into **** magic, culminating in the obsidian edict. Not only an interesting piece of world-building, but for in-universe purposes it'd be an interesting aspect of the debate/justifications around the college of magic on both ends.
 
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