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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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Doomed Wombat said:
I've always felt it'd be a more interesting story if Sigmar didn't start off as the god of **** magic and just the god of **** greenskin shamanism and Necromancy in particular
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Boney said:
Necromantic Insight: +20 to dispel and induce miscasts against Necromancy. Able to identify (and cast) the spells of Necromancy.
Waaaghbane: +20 to attempts to dispel and induce miscasts against any Little or Big Waaagh spells. -20 for greenskins to attempt the same to you.
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Just another small way in which Mathilde is clearly tracking better than that jumped-up Venerated Soul. :V
 
silentorphan said:
How much did she cheat on Necromantic Insight by reading the Liber Mortis, though?
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Her only experience with Necromancy back when she got that skill was, I believe, her analysis of the Matrix and her experiences in Stirland, which didn't really give her much time to witness and experience Necromancy per se. There were a lot of undead, but the Necromancers dropped dead quickly and often because they were all jumped up amateurs. It's where Mathilde's whole "I could be doing so much better with Dhar than these weaklings" comment came from.

So I would say that when she got that skill, the vast majority of it, if not all of it, was the result of the Liber Mortis.
 
DragonParadox said:
Only an illiterate barbarian would think of reading as cheating and looting (the Crown of Sorcery) as fair :V
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I don't think Sigmar ever wore the Crown of Sorcery. If you count the novels, he almost killed a friend of his because of the Crown's influence (the guy who would allegedly form the Order of the Silver Hammer), but he overcame the pressure and sealed it away until Nagash came calling. Say what you will about Sigmar, but not even he would wear a magic item of dubious provenence just because it told him to.
 
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Nerdasaurus Rex said:
Are the Swamp Gods of Sylvania a library category, or are they still filed under "Minor Gods of the Empire"?
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Considering they literally just came up and confused everyone, I assume books wouldn't even be available on them. If anything, there would be stories, tales, myths and superstitions spread through word of mouth, which could perhaps be collated with a concerted effort. I doubt there are many literate locals in Sylvania willing to become scholars and write books about their long-suppressed gods that just came back to prominence.
 
Codex said:
I don't think Sigmar ever wore the Crown of Sorcery. If you count the novels, he almost killed a friend of his because of the Crown's influence (the guy who would allegedly form the Order of the Silver Hammer), but he overcame the pressure and sealed it away until Nagash came calling. Say what you will about Sigmar, but not even he would wear a magic item of dubious provenence just because it told him to.
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I hink he did carry it as a shield when he fought Nagash which is why the Great Necromancer's magic could not touch him (because it was a part of Nagash).
 
Codex said:
Considering they literally just came up and confused everyone, I assume books wouldn't even be available on them. If anything, there would be stories, tales, myths and superstitions spread through word of mouth, which could perhaps be collated with a concerted effort. I doubt there are many literate locals in Sylvania willing to become scholars and write books about their long-suppressed gods that just came back to prominence.
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That was my assumption too, but I just wanted to double check in case I was wrong.
 
DragonParadox said:
I hink he did carry it as a shield when he fought Nagash which is why the Great Necromancer's magic could not touch him (because it was a part of Nagash).
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He carried it around him when fighting Nagash and went "go fetch" with it, which is what distracted Nagash momentarily as the Great Necromancer fell for it and tried to take the Crown. Then he got hit with Ghal Maraz and got vaporized. I remember this pretty well because of the image it evokes.
 
Codex said:
He carried it around him when fighting Nagash and went "go fetch" with it, which is what distracted Nagash momentarily as the Great Necromancer fell for it and tried to take the Crown. Then he got hit with Ghal Maraz and got vaporized. I remember this pretty well because of the image it evokes.
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That is what I recall as well, and during that duel he was using the crown as anti-magic, just as we used the lore of the Liber Mortis, so looting vs reading.
 
Codex said:
He carried it around him when fighting Nagash and went "go fetch" with it, which is what distracted Nagash momentarily as the Great Necromancer fell for it and tried to take the Crown. Then he got hit with Ghal Maraz and got vaporized. I remember this pretty well because of the image it evokes.
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D(e/i)str(a/u)ction tactic.

Mathilde doesn't need accessories like the crown of Sorcery to apply that tactic :V
 
Speaking of the Crown of Sorcery, I do wonder how it found its way to Troll Country where Azhag found it. Looking at the list of those who wore it, after Sigmar defeated Nagash, the only person (recorded in canon) who wore it since was Azhag, who found the Crown in the labrynths of the ancient city of Todtheim in Troll Country while he was hiding out from Chaos Warriors. He found the Crown in the posession of a Chaos Troll (part of the Troll's den, not worn on the Troll's head). He then wore it, and he did this around the mid-2510s IC. He's actually a very modern character.

The question, then, is what the hell happened to the Crown between Sigmar and Azhag. Somewhere in those 2500 years the Crown found its way northwards, which the Crown wouldn't appreciate. After all, it has a will of its own and it wants to go back south to Nagashizzar.
 
Codex said:
Please note a few things. First, the quoted passage seems pretty extreme, but that is to be expected since the writers can barely restrain themselves when they're talking of Witch Hunters. A reminder that Boney is generally less extreme when it comes to the setting's facets. What caught my eye that is just a blatant "wtf" thing is the whole "No Templar would ever use Arcane Magic to fulfil their duties".

Remember that Realms of Sorcery is the book that introduced the actual wording of the Articles of Magic, which includes this Article:

And I'm pretty sure this Article is what forms the basis of the non-adverserial relationship DL's Templars and Magisters have with each other:

With that in mind, feel free to pick over the quote if you like.
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I read the no Arcane Magic rule being about personal use. That is, no Templar can be a mage, rather than no Templar can work with mages (although I imagine some of the more extremist elements might take it that way). That would actually make sense as a rule Magnus put in place. If you want an organization that in part serves as oversight to your shiny new magic schools, you probably don't want dual membership to be allowed.
 
deathofrats0808 said:
I read the no Arcane Magic rule being about personal use. That is, no Templar can be a mage, rather than no Templar can work with mages (although I imagine some of the more extremist elements might take it that way). That would actually make sense as a rule Magnus put in place. If you want an organization that in part serves as oversight to your shiny new magic schools, you probably don't want dual membership to be allowed.
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I considered that possibility, but the following line says "they view it as dousing a fire with oil", which is pretty unambigous about the fact that they view magic as incompatible with their line of work rather than the line being about personal use.
 
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Codex said:
"they view it as using fire to deal with fire"
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Fire is used to deal with fire commonly :V
Codex said:
The question, then, is what the hell happened to the Crown between Sigmar and Azhag. Somewhere in those 2500 years the Crown found its way northwards, which the Crown wouldn't appreciate. After all, it has a will of its own and it wants to go back south to Nagashizzar.
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Presumably, a plucky hobbit and his eight friends chucked it as far away from where it wants to be once they found out just chucking it into volcano doesn't work. Which is only halfway a joke. There is enough people, benign or otherwise, that would want to deny weird voices of the once great Necromancer. Its entirely possible it was entombed way out of reach of the usual suspects who would use it by some strong willed hero, or maybe even a cultist who wanted to deny the man that would end rule of chaos in this realm, but could not find ways to destroy it.

I suppose we will never know.
 
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Codex said:
Somewhere in those 2500 years the Crown found its way northwards, which the Crown wouldn't appreciate. After all, it has a will of its own and it wants to go back south to Nagashizzar.
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Sounds pretty much like it was inspired by the One Ring from The Lord of the Rings: has a will of its own, wants to be reunited with Sauron...and stuck in a riverbed for 2500 years and then beneath a mountain range for 500. :V
 
silentorphan said:
Sounds pretty much like it was inspired by the One Ring from The Lord of the Rings: has a will of its own, wants to be reunited with Sauron...and stuck in a riverbed for 2500 years and then beneath a mountain range for 500. :V
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I'm still not entirely sure whether Nagash was inspired by Vecna or Vecna was inspired by Nagash, or if the two characters were created independently and have no connection. I would have thought it a coincidence if the Hand of Nagash wasn't an actual object in Warhammer Fantasy sort of like the Hand of Vecna is in DnD.
 
Codex said:
I'm still not entirely sure whether Nagash was inspired by Vecna or Vecna was inspired by Nagash, or if the two characters were created independently and have no connection. I would have thought it a coincidence if the Hand of Nagash wasn't an actual object in Warhammer Fantasy sort of like the Hand of Vecna is in DnD.
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DnD is older than Warhammer Fantasy. Fantasy was the second gaming setting to heavily pilfer Tolkien. Hand of Vesna in particular dates to a rulebook that predates WH:F itself by good four years.

EDIT: Now whetever hand of Vecna existed in its exact incarnation in that first book is a question i can't answer, seeing as i don't have it, but there are good odds that it was roughly similar at least flavour wise.

Double EDIT: Honestly, considering it was found in NOT RUSSIA part of the world, it might as well be a callback or intended reference to Koschei, the original Lich. Although that is a pretty tenuous and reaching theory.
 
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pucflek said:
DnD is older than Warhammer Fantasy. Fantasy was the second gaming setting to heavily pilfer Tolkien. Hand of Vesna in particular dates to a rulebook that predates WH:F itself by good four years.
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I knew DnD was older, I simply didn't really know how old Vecna and his Hand was. Checking wikipedia, he's apparently significantly older than I thought. 1976? Really? Damn.
 
pucflek said:
DnD is older than Warhammer Fantasy. Fantasy was the second gaming setting to heavily pilfer Tolkien. Hand of Vesna in particular dates to a rulebook that predates WH:F itself by good four years.

Now whetever hand of Vecna existed in its exact incarnation in that first book is a question i can't answer, seeing as i don't have it, but there are good odds that it was roughly similar at least flavour wise.
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The real question is if the Hand/Eye of Vecna are stolen from Jack Vance like the magic system was.
 
I know of Jack Vance for his creation of the Vancian Magic system, which thankfully has a TVTropes article fully prepped and ready for it. I can't say I know much of the history behind it, but I recognise that he invented spell slots as I know of it.
 
Codex said:
I considered that possibility, but the following line says "they view it as dousing a fire with oil", which is pretty unambigous about the fact that they view magic as incompatible with their line of work rather than the line being about personal use.
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True, but this could be a result of two hundred years of people already biased against magic teaching this, rather than the original intent. Either way, Boney definitely isn't going for the all Witch Hunters hate all magic angle. Abelhelm proved that.

shepsquared said:
The real question is if the Hand/Eye of Vecna are stolen from Jack Vance like the magic system was.
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The name is (Vecna is an anagram of Vance) but they got the idea for Hand and Eye specifically from DnD's other great inspiration, the works of Michael Moorcock (also where Chaos/Law comes from).
 
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