Oh, here is another purely theoretical question. Do we enforce Tindomiel RoFR for Waystone, or do we not care if someone else would have a capacity to construct one.
Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest
- Thread starter Boney
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Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
At this point I'd want prove about any of this. Your claiming they know waaaaaaaay to much for their station....
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Yeah, the thing I'm worried about is that the production methods require, not just casters of multiple winds, but eight-wind casters, in which case our options suddenly narrow to "the Eonir" and "Mathilde desperately climbing the Windherder tech tree and training seven other people in it so they can do stuff together." Though I guess in that event everyone will be much more philosophical about the Eonir being like "we will do this, but only if we get to stamp them with the logo of the goddess we revere," because what's the alternative?
In any event, repairing/purifying broken/corrupted Waystones would be a big win by itself, so unlike our boy in Tindomiel I will not declare failure if we don't reach Maximum 100% Success. Harm reduction is a way of life.
- Location
- Chicago
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The claim I am making is that this house knows more than the greys, the jades, and the golds. Which, given the inside track on how much those three institutions know, I think is a safe bet.
You, on the other hand, need to demonstrate why you think this house's knowledge base is already included in one of the other project participants.
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- Who knows?
Oh dear that reminds me of the whole post from Boney that stated "No you can't get Asur help since they'll freak the fuck out at anyone messing with the waystones and do their best to stomp it out."
Ouf hopefully we'll have some actionable results be the time the Asur start having freak outs.
And honestly I think the arguments have made me cooler with the Hekarti gang signs since creating more Waystones is still la "Congrats on Shooting the Moon" goal.
Codex
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Aside from maybe the Ice Court, it's hard to find organisations with the requisite manpower for dealing with the Wind related requirements for installing new Waystones in a reasonable timeframe. The Colleges are a military institution first and foremost that's super busy and struggles to spare the manpower for much, and even then they have a very small number of actually potent Wizards with the necessary skill set for work of this degree. The Hedgewise were suppressed and eliminated over such a long period of time it's hard to see many of them being able to help out significantly in this regard. The Grey Lords are powerful, but they're only twelve people and it doesn't seem like the other eleven desire to leave their pocket dimension anytime soon. The Ward of Frost is a huge unknown, but the place lacked any sort of structure or organisation that we literally had to wander around until we could meet a high ranking official that's supposed to be part of the council, because there is no structure or organisation to the place anymore. Etc. Etc.
Even the Ice Court is iffy. They have power in Kislev, but it rapidly diminishes outside of it. It's also questionable how much manpower they can supply.
An Elven Major House dedicated to Magical workings is a huge boon anyway you look at it from a manpower perspective. Elves have a larger proportion of Magic users than humans, and unlike Human Mages, they don't die as often, because they don't chisel their hands and charge into battle only to explode a few moments later. Most of these people have likely been studying magic most of their lives in a way that isn't primarily about killing people. Elves used to view magic as an expression of art rather than a tool of war, and they were sad when they had to use it that way.
This isn't to say that we can't find another solution that doesn't involve them. I'm just saying that they are going to be useful if we ever get to the part where we can actually build Waystones. If.
(Yes I considered Dwarves and dismissed them. Tindomiel are going to be doing the Wind based requirements, which Dwarves cannot do for obvious reasons.)
Even the Ice Court is iffy. They have power in Kislev, but it rapidly diminishes outside of it. It's also questionable how much manpower they can supply.
An Elven Major House dedicated to Magical workings is a huge boon anyway you look at it from a manpower perspective. Elves have a larger proportion of Magic users than humans, and unlike Human Mages, they don't die as often, because they don't chisel their hands and charge into battle only to explode a few moments later. Most of these people have likely been studying magic most of their lives in a way that isn't primarily about killing people. Elves used to view magic as an expression of art rather than a tool of war, and they were sad when they had to use it that way.
This isn't to say that we can't find another solution that doesn't involve them. I'm just saying that they are going to be useful if we ever get to the part where we can actually build Waystones. If.
(Yes I considered Dwarves and dismissed them. Tindomiel are going to be doing the Wind based requirements, which Dwarves cannot do for obvious reasons.)
...I never claimed the last part? I don't know what they know and you certainly don't know it either. The only way you could is if you had a alt called boney... But your claiming that they know more then the grey's, the lights and jades with a confidence that borders on hubris. We know that elven magic traditions doesn't explain everything (divine casting) and we know that the ancestors of these orders have build magical constructs without the help of any elf's or dwarfs.
The only claim I made in regard to tindomiel is that your too confident in their knowledge base...
The damsels might have the manpower. (literally, who knows what they are doing with all the dudes they take.)
The High elfs definitely can, but this whole thing is very much everyone else going behind their backs, so they might be too salty even if it works to provide the elfpower. and to be fair, they are stretched thin when it comes to global defence so even if there is no hard feelings they might not have the free bodies.
The cults might be able to do a lot of the leg work in building them, to offset the wizards needed.
Then there is athel loren... as a last resort.
The High elfs definitely can, but this whole thing is very much everyone else going behind their backs, so they might be too salty even if it works to provide the elfpower. and to be fair, they are stretched thin when it comes to global defence so even if there is no hard feelings they might not have the free bodies.
The cults might be able to do a lot of the leg work in building them, to offset the wizards needed.
Then there is athel loren... as a last resort.
Well their is house Mirel with their priest craftsmen who might be able to make waystones for us but like, i'm expecting them to have the fewest magical priest crafters of allthe magical houses due to the whole ritually blinding yourself and eventually going deaf from working under the loud sounds of a water fall.
Also, the idea of priest craftsmen who ritually blind themselves and are deaf from the loud waterfall they work under and only speak a language house Mirel know's going around the empire and crafting waystone's doesn't seem... diplomaticly good. Certainly enough to set of the witch hunter's and alot of people in generel who look into the house and cult and go wtf.
Their's also 2 other magic houses i Believe, 1 dedicated to Hoeth and another not sure if it's Mirel dedicated to the blind crafting god or someone else but I believe their pro isolationists so unless we start doing gamer shit with waystone's i doubt they'll want to work with us.
Also, the idea of priest craftsmen who ritually blind themselves and are deaf from the loud waterfall they work under and only speak a language house Mirel know's going around the empire and crafting waystone's doesn't seem... diplomaticly good. Certainly enough to set of the witch hunter's and alot of people in generel who look into the house and cult and go wtf.
Their's also 2 other magic houses i Believe, 1 dedicated to Hoeth and another not sure if it's Mirel dedicated to the blind crafting god or someone else but I believe their pro isolationists so unless we start doing gamer shit with waystone's i doubt they'll want to work with us.
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It's very possible that the elven magical knowledge base fully explains divine casting, and the secular Colleges didn't have a sophisticated understanding of what Teclis was telling them, or that Teclis gave them a part truth they could understand rather than something that would hinder that stage of their their development.
What we call the 'Teclisian' paradigm almost certainly isn't Teclis' own paradigm. It's what bits of the much simplified and cut down Sapherian apprentice curriculum Teclis could pass onto the first Magisters in a fraction of the time of an elven magical education. He quite possibly intended to teach a more complete version later, just as we teach Newtonian laws of motion before first special and then general relativity.
Teclis' explanation that priests shape the Winds of the Aethyr just as the magisters shape the Winds of Magic could well be completely correct according to an elf trying to translate their understanding of the relationship between a mortal and their god into terms they think a human understands, as long as you consider the gods to be the 'Winds of the Aethyr' that Teclis was talking about, and that the elves think they're being part of their god when acting as them, so they're the one shaping a divine spell as it passes through them while being their god.
We have literally no idea what the extent of the elven understanding of magic is. We just know that it could be used to construct a meta-paradigm to allow the eight College's own paradigms to mutually understand each other to some degree.
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- Chicago
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Right, but you aren't addressing any of the reasons I am confident.
The colleges are the collected remnants of several persecuted traditions who have had large portions of their history and records destroyed multiple times over the last few thousand years.
The elves here are a house that has had a continuous tradition of elders teaching juniors since it was founded: this city has never been conquered or burnt and this house has never been exiled.
They also have a library with a history that extends further back than even Teclis's resources.
So there's no events where we would see huge losses of knowledge, not in the same way as the Asur and humans.
This lack of having to start from zero is why I'm confident.
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I think it's more accurate to say they're stretched thin protecting Ulthuan and their colonies alone. They rarely ever actually protect areas that aren't their own because they're being overwhelmed without having to take global defence into the equation. They claim to rule the Great Ocean but that isn't right because Norscans, Dark Elves, Sartosans and occasionally Zombie Pirates and Nehekharans still roam the seas relatively frequently and the Druchii have endless numbers despite their mortality rate being 50% or something, so they keep getting attacked over and over.
I give the High Elves some shit every now and then because I hate their concept, but I have to say that it's really not fair how the Druchii have an infinite respawn exploit they can use that the High Elves don't have access to. Therefore, despite the constant losses, the Druchii are thriving and the Asur are fading.
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- Location
- Belgrade, Serbia
[X] Plan: Just the Heir
Codex
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We barely know anything about the mages of Araby, and Boney would have to make a loooot of original worldbuilding if we go there. We know they use "Elementalism", which is the four elements, but we don't know how that works accurately enough to call it multi wind.
They might not have a huge loss of knowledge but they probably stated with much less. Their not a major mage house of ulthuan, these were colonists who choose to move to the Backlands of their former empire. They maybe started with some nice tomes but they certainly didn't have a full copy of the tower of hoeth or any other big ulthuani magic library.
As far as we know in quest teclis had no explanation for divine casting. He only lumped it into the winds and then stopped talking about it even as it got clear that it's not like any wind casting. We could of course speculate that the elf's have a perfect explanation for it but they haven't given it so we can't use it.
What I'm trying to say is that with our current informations the elf's have no explanation for divine casters therefore their teachings on magic might have other flaws.
Mopman43
Mountain-Hermit of Nitpeak
- Location
- Vermont
The White Tower of Hoeth is actually younger than the Library of Mournings in Laurelorn.
It was completed 499 IC, so roughly 2,000 years after the Elven colonies became independent because Ulthuan left.
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Fair enough, I mostly used it because it's the only "big library of magic in ulthuan" I know. And it still doesn't diminish my point. I doubt the lowly colonists got send out here with a comprehensive collection of elven magic lore.
The big problem with Araby is that, well, no one in the old world has a clue about how much you can trust them, The colleges are still debating on if their djin are demons or not.
The whole reason the elementals and tilea groups are not on the table at all is because of how mercenary Mathy thinks they are.
The whole thing around waystones is that they are hella dangerous in the wrong hands. Mathy is already cutting it tight with the Hedgewise, their will be people that would have a problem with them at these meeting if they know.
Not disagreeing with you in practice but I feel like the Light's pyramid inclination comes not ass a consequence of previous tradition but because someone went to Nehekara and took lore over mummy gold.
It is not just Elementalism but also enchanting, demon/apparition binding, divine magic and the dark arts. There main way to use magic seems to bind something to a item and use it as a battery to do magic.
- Location
- France
You know, I really hope we take an action to recruit Kragg super late in the project. I'm imagining Kragg looking at our data, looking at what all the Elgi are doing, and grumbling off. Six weeks later, the closest mountain starts gathering the Winds and sending them off to the Karaz Ankor.
Kragg refuses to elaborate.
Kragg refuses to elaborate.
House Thyriolan is the one that cares about waystones but doesn't want to talk to humans.
if we see early successes we might want to try and get them one borad, for the extra vote if nothing else.
[X] Plan Subtlety is for losers, but only at home
-[x] [SCOPE] The Empire (+2)
-[X] [REP] Head (-3)
-[X] [FORM] Shrines (+1)
I already voted but I want to restate why I like this plan again. I actually do not really care about the Head, but I believe that this combination gives us 3 points at a bargain price.
Making all the finest Waystone locations open shrines to an exotic goddess of magic has lots of potential issues, but within the Empire those are massively lessened. The religious landscape already is a diverse mess, so an additional new goddess trying to get established is business as usual. Potential rivals would normally object, but since Hekarti is so focused on magic she does not have any big, established ones. For a similar reason the Empire also lacks powerful alternate patrons for these wizardly constructs we will put up.
Furthermore the Empire is the area the Eonir are actively trying to connect with. Tindomiel will always have a reason to safeguard whatever shrines they put up, but in the Empire they will have an easier time actually projecting influence due to politics and geography. All the other Eonir house are also invested in smoothing over any ruffled feathers since those could damage their own interests in their new ally as well.
Trying to spread Hekarti to the Empire honestly seems like Hubris. At first I tried to think up ways to sell her to the magicless masses, but then I realized that it is not really Mathilde's issue if an elvish noble wastes time on a foolish pet project. We get all we want out of Tindomiel even if not a single human starts to worship Hekarti. The ways this plan could blow up in our faces would actually increase if they somehow managed to attract lots of followers, since then established players would actually feel threatened. I however suspect that the Elves are being arrogant and will get their asses kicked.
TLDR: Give them some stuff they really want. They can try to spread their goddess while we just reap the rewards.
-[x] [SCOPE] The Empire (+2)
-[X] [REP] Head (-3)
-[X] [FORM] Shrines (+1)
I already voted but I want to restate why I like this plan again. I actually do not really care about the Head, but I believe that this combination gives us 3 points at a bargain price.
Making all the finest Waystone locations open shrines to an exotic goddess of magic has lots of potential issues, but within the Empire those are massively lessened. The religious landscape already is a diverse mess, so an additional new goddess trying to get established is business as usual. Potential rivals would normally object, but since Hekarti is so focused on magic she does not have any big, established ones. For a similar reason the Empire also lacks powerful alternate patrons for these wizardly constructs we will put up.
Furthermore the Empire is the area the Eonir are actively trying to connect with. Tindomiel will always have a reason to safeguard whatever shrines they put up, but in the Empire they will have an easier time actually projecting influence due to politics and geography. All the other Eonir house are also invested in smoothing over any ruffled feathers since those could damage their own interests in their new ally as well.
Trying to spread Hekarti to the Empire honestly seems like Hubris. At first I tried to think up ways to sell her to the magicless masses, but then I realized that it is not really Mathilde's issue if an elvish noble wastes time on a foolish pet project. We get all we want out of Tindomiel even if not a single human starts to worship Hekarti. The ways this plan could blow up in our faces would actually increase if they somehow managed to attract lots of followers, since then established players would actually feel threatened. I however suspect that the Elves are being arrogant and will get their asses kicked.
TLDR: Give them some stuff they really want. They can try to spread their goddess while we just reap the rewards.
Mopman43
Mountain-Hermit of Nitpeak
- Location
- Vermont
Boney's previous statement on Mathilde asking Kragg to go with her to the Elf Kingdom of Laurelorn is that it'd take considerable explanation to get across that she didn't mean "At the head of an army".
Not sure Kragg's quite up for Elgi cooperation.