It does not matter if we give it to Timonel or not, the Eonir have the most wind base enchanters out of all of us so they will likely be helping to make most stones at least at first. The Grey College does not even have a staff turner, high level enchanters are in single digits.
Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest
- Thread starter Boney
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Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
It does not matter if we give it to Timonel or not, the Eonir have the most wind base enchanters out of all of us so they will likely be helping to make most stones at least at first. The Grey College does not even have a staff turner, high level enchanters are in single digits.
- Location
- Europa, Jupiter Orbit
Correction: The Grey College does not have someone willing to dedicate his time to turning staffs. They probably have multiple people capable, at least one of which is willing to teach others.
My point was more that there are less than 50 magisters total and enchanting is hardly our focus especially since I suspect something as big as a Waystone will need battle magic enchanting. We are going to need the elves a lot on this one, especially at the start.
Plan Just The Heir doesn't keep the Waystones secular, but it does keep the dedicated Waystones to Laurelorn, which shouldn't be an issure for the groups you mention.
I'm not sure how you get the idea that shrines in Laurelorn is a snub. It will grant them political influence in Laurelorn, which until recently was the limit of their world and remains the place where they live and will continue to live. And the heir is the only contributor being offered other than the head of the house that we can count on for political support, which I at least thought was the main reason we wanted Tindomiel in the first place.
EDIT: I don't think dedications are a snub either. Isthien seems aware of the attitudes towards magic in the Empire and will probably understand that some concessions need to be made.
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Neither of Tindomiel options are appealing to me at all. So I just go with plans that I hate the least. Which are Heir and only-Empire Waystones. Would've voted for refusal, if that would have any chances of success.
I. actually don't know. Can anyone clarify how will Witch Hunters act if they encounter "Potentially harmless but not proven" situation?
There is a difference between Elves working on Elven stones with Elven carvings on it and Elves hired by Grey Lady-Magister.
- Location
- Finland
Exactly, they do not have a staff turner, and high level enchanters are also unlikely to be plentiful.
Other colleges might have more (Golds seem like a good bet), but even with them the number of enchanters is low, and if you want a widespread construction of waystones, we will need to lean heavily on the elves.
Burned_Cookie
Very tired girl.
- Location
- Plato´s cave.
- Pronouns
- She/Her/It/Its
You can vote for refusal and a plan.
- Location
- Finland
Call a priest and/or wizard who will then kick it upstairs until it reaches the imperial council who kicks it back down with "nothing to worry about".
Burned_Cookie
Very tired girl.
- Location
- Plato´s cave.
- Pronouns
- She/Her/It/Its
I mean I'd expect a witch hunter to burn now ask questions never. They tend to be fanatics, no?
Sure they have that structure to call on, and many probably will, but it only takes one overzealous guy to burn everyone.
Sure they have that structure to call on, and many probably will, but it only takes one overzealous guy to burn everyone.
Not one that the average Imperial would notice. We are not going to be writing on those things in Reikshpiel.
I mean such witch hunters exist... they do not tend to live long once they exceed their authority. I feel like this is a refrain by now but 'Witch Hunters are not the inquisition'
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If you think Mathilde doesn't have the right to promise First Refusal to Tindomiel, you are misunderstanding what it is.
When Kislev or Bretonnia or the Empire asks the Waystone project to build waystones, we have to seek out and employ the craftsmen capable of it—and that means paying those craftsmen. Tindomiel want a promise that when that happens, they are the first group we ask. If they can't build it, we can ask other groups (and we don't know what they will require as payment to do the work).
The only "payment" they want is to build a shrine or dedication out of pocket. They are not asking for gold, or political favours, they are asking to be paid in more work.
And if they can't build it for whatever reason—maybe they don't have the mages, or maybe the political consequence of building a shrine in Kislev is too high, they will turn down the contract and we will have to find and pay someone else to do the work—a group who have not been involved with the project since the beginning, and won't have the experience or knowledge Tindomiel have, and will have a mystery price attached to their work.
I do not worry about average Imperial. I beware that few knowledgeable individuals can cause political problems and stall the Project, even for a short time.
SuperSonicSound
Shadowmancer of the Shadow Cabal
[x] Plan how many people can actually read elf anyways?
-[x] [SCOPE] The Empire (+2)
-[x] [REP] Magical Theorist (-2)
-[x] [FORM] Dedication (0)
-[x] [SCOPE] The Empire (+2)
-[x] [REP] Magical Theorist (-2)
-[x] [FORM] Dedication (0)
Burned_Cookie
Very tired girl.
- Location
- Plato´s cave.
- Pronouns
- She/Her/It/Its
I think the main issue is that they share a name with a historical movement so mass murdery and counterfactual even by the doctrines of the time that the actual inquisition considered them over the top extremists and highly dangerous.
They killed countless innocent people over nothing, and anything that bears their name and imagery will get no trust from me.
Well for them you can just say 'we need that to make the bad magic go away'. It is not like they can prove we are not telling the truth since we are not the mages of the Golden Age.
That's what I see as a problem. What happens if Elves, for some reason will be blunt enough to ignore possible problems and willing to build Waystone in Kislev? And Kislev, at the same time, wants to build Waystone solely by its own power, using the knowledge that Ice Witch got while working on the Project with us. For prestige, religious reasons or anything else. I can't find imagine a good outcome for this. Either we choose sides, and have quarell with someone, or let them sort it out, and potentially start a conflict.
I know that this is not likely to happen. But there is a possibility.
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K von Carstein
Likes to go for a walk
- Location
- Belgium
- Pronouns
- He
I agree on principle. But in practice, the 2 leading votes choose either Laurelorn or the Empire so it won't likely be a problem.
I know, I was just explaining why, in my opinion, even that technically we have authority for any Waystone decision, we can't act on the ones outside the Empire without major consequences.
The entire constant framing of 'What happens if an ignorant Witchhunter stumbles upon a mysterious, new cult of Hekarti' is super weird. Putting up a new Waystone will not be a subtle event and Witchhunters have lots of reasons to keep track of the news. Witchhunters will probably show up while we are building shit, but at that point there will still be Elves around to give them all the theological elaborations they could ever want. After that Hekarti will be a known quantity in that region.
If we select shrines the House might even delegate some lesser clergy to staffing them. There should be plenty of adventurous Elves wanting a job in these exotic, unexplored lands called the Empire.
If we select shrines the House might even delegate some lesser clergy to staffing them. There should be plenty of adventurous Elves wanting a job in these exotic, unexplored lands called the Empire.
The Pirate Principality of Sartosa.
- Location
- Czech Republic
I really doubt that witch hunters would shoot first, ask questions never on Lady magister, Runelord and Ice witch.
- Location
- Europa, Jupiter Orbit
Two more aspects for disliking this deal:
A) We are not just snubbing Human Cults, we are also snubbing Elven Cults in their own home and blindly taking sides. I expect at least two Houses to care. Maybe more.
B) This whole Project is supposed to be about broad cooperation. One "race" whose inclusion in this might reach from helpful to vital is the gods themselves. Dedicating the Waystones to Hekarti specifically makes it quite a bit less likely that multiple gods will each do their part to make this whole thing work. And I don't think that Tindomiel will accept it as true to the contract if we say "Of course you can dedicate them to Hekarti. And these other priests will simultaneously dedicate them to Hoeth, Valaya, Thungni, the Widow, Taal, Verena, Ranald, Halétha, the Lady and a bunch of others."
B) "Your specific request is that you get to honor your goddess? Okay. But only if you honor someone else instead. Or no one. That fits your request, right?"
Sure, both of those are still useful to Tindomiel. And can be coached with more diplomatic words. But we're talking about Elves here. The unflattering subtext will be clear as day to them.
First, right of first refusal doesn't mean they have to offer it for free each time. They could still demand reasonable rates and consider it a breach of contract if we refuse them and give it to someone else for a similar or higher price.
Second, if the representative of the Waystone Project and the representative of a Waystone buyer negotiate and the latter says "We want a Waystone, but not Tindomiel's (because of politics)", then according to this contract (if they are on land covered by it, the former's answer should be "I am sorry but those kinds of Waystones are the only ones we offer". Or more accurately, if Tindomiel has no objection themselves then we are not allowed to offer a different supplier. The only way to do it without breach of contract would be by either inundating Tindomiel with other requests and tacking the politically problematic ones at the back while also claiming urgency, or by using subterfuge to get Tindomiel to not want to work there without blaming us or the buyer.
P.S: I am using "buyer" here for ease of expression. I have no idea if the Waystone Project will be a public service supported by patron nations or if there will be some other kind of funding scheme.
The Waystone Project is, as of right now, not a permanent guild-like organization. It's a collaboration by independent agents and agencies, each openly holding loyalties beyond the Project itself.
A) We are not just snubbing Human Cults, we are also snubbing Elven Cults in their own home and blindly taking sides. I expect at least two Houses to care. Maybe more.
B) This whole Project is supposed to be about broad cooperation. One "race" whose inclusion in this might reach from helpful to vital is the gods themselves. Dedicating the Waystones to Hekarti specifically makes it quite a bit less likely that multiple gods will each do their part to make this whole thing work. And I don't think that Tindomiel will accept it as true to the contract if we say "Of course you can dedicate them to Hekarti. And these other priests will simultaneously dedicate them to Hoeth, Valaya, Thungni, the Widow, Taal, Verena, Ranald, Halétha, the Lady and a bunch of others."
A) "We support you to do whatever you want. As long as you don't do it where we live. Sure, have our backup in your own political pond that we know nothing about."
B) "Your specific request is that you get to honor your goddess? Okay. But only if you honor someone else instead. Or no one. That fits your request, right?"
Sure, both of those are still useful to Tindomiel. And can be coached with more diplomatic words. But we're talking about Elves here. The unflattering subtext will be clear as day to them.
In depth investigation is the correct way. Fanatics may do whatever. But they would be doing it illegally. And then an agent of the Empire's most powerful secret police would be in their rights to go snickersnack on their asses.
Two things.
First, right of first refusal doesn't mean they have to offer it for free each time. They could still demand reasonable rates and consider it a breach of contract if we refuse them and give it to someone else for a similar or higher price.
Second, if the representative of the Waystone Project and the representative of a Waystone buyer negotiate and the latter says "We want a Waystone, but not Tindomiel's (because of politics)", then according to this contract (if they are on land covered by it, the former's answer should be "I am sorry but those kinds of Waystones are the only ones we offer". Or more accurately, if Tindomiel has no objection themselves then we are not allowed to offer a different supplier. The only way to do it without breach of contract would be by either inundating Tindomiel with other requests and tacking the politically problematic ones at the back while also claiming urgency, or by using subterfuge to get Tindomiel to not want to work there without blaming us or the buyer.
P.S: I am using "buyer" here for ease of expression. I have no idea if the Waystone Project will be a public service supported by patron nations or if there will be some other kind of funding scheme.
If the Waystone Project never claims monopoly (which I for one very much don't want to do) then the Ice and Hag Witches would be allowed to build as many Waystones as they want, using all the knowledge that Zlata and Niedzwenka have learned. They'd even be allowed to get Dwarven help, as long as it isn't Thorek in person or his current apprentices (who haven't made journeyman yet).
The Waystone Project is, as of right now, not a permanent guild-like organization. It's a collaboration by independent agents and agencies, each openly holding loyalties beyond the Project itself.
Answering this question is closer than I like to answering "what would Mathilde vote for?" It's up to the thread to evaluate the costs and risks of each option.
If you believe those that say that Jack O' the Sea is an aspect Ranald, then he's already done so.
There exists a middle ground between 'got everything they asked for' and 'are insulted and will carry a grudge'. If you give Tindomiel less than everything they want, then the consequence of that is not that they'll secretly resent Mathilde, the consequence is that you get less than their full support, as represented by the higher costs on representatives with greater expertise or influence.
What if the elves are actively malicious or politically incompetent, you mean.
The Eonir do not have the luxury needed for the arrogance that the other elven nations exhibit. The High Elves have their island paradise. The Dark Elves are on the far side of the ocean. The Wood Elves have Athel Loren. The Eonir don't have that level of strength—if they did, Nordland would be burning right now and we'd be at war with them.
They have to make allies with the human realms for mutual survival. If they alienate them by forcing their religion down everyone's throats then they will be left isolated and alone—a state of affairs that they have just left after it nearly drove them to extinction.
Tindomiel voted for contact with the human realms to prevent a war between Laurelorn and Nordland, not start one.
Give them the benefit of the doubt and assume they are both competent and actively trying to keep the peace.
Would you go as far as to say boundary between Gods?
And when you say boundary do you think of mystical ulgu?