Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
The problem is that Nordland and the Cult of Sigmar uses this controversial point regarding Hekarti to score political points by complicating the process for building new Waystones. They have lots of influence and reach over institutions in the Empire, putting up obstacles is well within their ballpark.

It's not the direct impact of Hekarti markings but rather the perception and sensitive political situation surrounding Laurelorn, putting Hekarti front and center in the final product will hamper its appeal to otherwise interested parties.

That is such a weak excuse that you could use literally anything in its place. 'They put the markings of an elf god of magic on the magic elf stones and if you look carefully the magic elf stones from four thousand years ago did not need that so these clearly do not'.

Mathilde *deadpan*: I will get right back to the Golden Age mages with the complaint.
 
I like that people are discussing why weirdly shaped waystones will/won't go over well with all these logically supported arguments when its probably more likely going to be a problem because people don't like weird and unusual that doesn't come from them and its going to get an entirely emotional counterpoints from any political blowback it potentially faces.
The emotional aspect won't much be influenced by prayers to and symbols of Hekarti because we are already talking about Elven mages setting up new and weird looking magic stones all over the countryside and maybe even inside of a couple of towns. At that point Hekarti is a footnote for anyone unreasonable and we shouldn't even be voting for Secular outside of Laurelorn.



Anyway, I'm going to add [] Plan: Local Security to my approval list. Keeping Talabecland outside of the agreement allows us to more easily negotiate with the Taalites in the future and shrines can probably be negotiated with the authorities of those four Provinces in person. If not, well, then we just set up more Waystones elsewhere to compensate.
 
Whats the most popular plan that keeps the waystones secular? Ice witches and Runesmiths are both priests, we don't know where our Jade stands on the earth mother issue, and the hedgewise are likewise a religious organization. Allowing sole dedication to one god seems to me like it would piss off all of these to varying degrees.
Since any Secular plan will require us to promise House Tindomiel right of first refusal for Kislev and Bretonnia, which we can't, the best plan that will result in no dedication for any Waystone is to say "No" to their proposal.
The best bet is to keep things secular, but failing that at least we should try to account for the local demographics. Either keep Hekarti within Laurelorn or pick an old world god to dedicate in the empire.
Same problem, we can't keep things secular for all Waystones without promising foreing territory. For secular Empire Waystones we either contain dedicaton in Laurelorn or refuse at all.

The Witch Hunters authority starts and ends with "are the forces of darkness doing anything weird with it, and do I need a wizard or a priest to help me stop them?"
Are Witch Hunters above overstepping on other authority though?

[x] Shrines for Heir
- [x] [SCOPE] Laurelorn (0)
- [x] [REP] Heir (-1)
- [x] [FORM] Shrines (+1)
[x] [HEDGEWISE] Discreetly
Change your vote for Plan: Just the Heir.
It's the same plan, but one that got votes.
 
Last edited:
I think you have a seriously outsized notion of what the average witch hunter looks like and what lore they have. They are not in fact all Van Hall with his high learning. Most of them know what a mutant looks like, what an undead looks like and they know how to shoot stab and otherwise remove them from the earthly plane. As to the importance of the project to the local balance of power, I think you are forgetting that it was held back before we got here. What is holding back the Middleland Norland conflict is that Norland would lose against a combined Middleland Eonir armies and those armies would likely trigger a wider imperial response. It is thus in the interest of neither party to wage war even if the Project never was
The conflict might not heat up into a war anymore, but it is very likely that Nordland and Sigmarites would take the chance to impede the project, as their main agenda is to oppose Laurelorn politically aligning with the Empire. This is what i mean by avoiding unnecessary trouble, why give the project's detractors free political ammunition against us?

As for the witch hunters, i think you're really oversimplifying and underestimating it. Even wizard apprentices are taught the importance and basics of Waystones, and you're saying the Empire's primary anti-magic force doesn't?
 
It's also worth remembering that Waystones are already very diverse in nature and appearance, and already have the glyphs and symbols of weird pre-Imperial religions on them.

Hell, for all we know there are already Waystones from the golden age built by elves that leaned towards the Hekartian end of the spectrum of ways of approaching magic with such markings.
I have a strong suspicion that, given the insistence of the Head of House Tindomiel on that specific point, Hekartinites were not a significant part of the previous Waystone Project.
 
The conflict might not heat up into a war anymore, but it is very likely that Nordland and Sigmarites would take the chance to impede the project, as their main agenda is to oppose Laurelorn politically aligning with the Empire. This is what i mean by avoiding unnecessary trouble, why give the project's detractors free political ammunition against us?

As for the witch hunters, i think you're really oversimplifying and underestimating it. Even wizard apprentices are taught the importance and basics of Waystones, and you're saying the Empire's primary anti-magic force doesn't?

'Witch hunter' does not mean what you think it means, there is little central control and no central training like with the colleges, there certainly is no comprehensive education arcane esoterica. Witch hunters are often adhoc deputized in their field

I have a strong suspicion that, given the insistence of the Head of House Tindomiel on that specific point, Hekartinites were not a significant part of the previous Waystone Project.

How would they know, it was 6000-4000 years ago in Ulthuan?
 
Last edited:
How would they know, it was 6000-4000 years ago in Ulthuan?
By looking at a bunch of Waystones and not seeing anything Hekarti related? And by knowing a whole bunch of Hoeth myths and stories featuring Waystones but not a single Hekarti one?

Also to my understanding many Elves live 1000+ years. So for them it's more like 300-450 years.
 
Last edited:
Do we need political hassle around Waystones? More than that will arise either way?

My point was that the witch hunters also would not need the political hassle, there is nothing to gain for them making a fuss over this and trying to overstep. They are not the Holy Inquisition of 40K doing things just to get in the way.

By looking at a bunch of Waystones and not seeing anything Hekarti related? And by knowing a whole bunch of Hoeth myths and stories featuring Waystones but not a single Hekarti one?

The first one proves there aren't any which the isolationist Eonir can see them and the latter are literally myths and legends, not what you woulc call reliable.
 
Last edited:
That is such a weak excuse that you could use literally anything in its place. 'They put the markings of an elf god of magic on the magic elf stones and if you look carefully the magic elf stones from four thousand years ago did not need that so these clearly do not'.

Mathilde *deadpan*: I will get right back to the Golden Age mages with the complaint.
Uh, yes? When you're building new Waystones on sovereign territory of the empire, part of that will need to consider the local beliefs and prejudices when negotiating permission. It might sound ridiculous to us, but for the average citizen it's a relevant concern if the new landmark comes attached with baggage.

Waystones are not really within the Witch Hunters sphere. Waystones are mostly "officially" watched over by the jades, the ambers, and the Cults of Taal and Rhya. The Witch Hunters authority starts and ends with "are the forces of darkness doing anything weird with it, and do I need a wizard or a priest to help me stop them?"
The jurisdiction of Witch hunters also covers tracking unsanctioned magic users in the Empire, which technically includes the Elves of Laurelorn. I'm sure we'll find a compromise/loophole to cover them if or when Tindomiel tries to build Waystones in the empire, but it's certainly going to attract Sigmarite scrutiny, since it's a novel situation.

My point was that the witch hunters also would not need the political hassle, there is nothing to gain for them making a fuss over this and trying to overstep. They are not the Holy Inquisition of 40K doing things just to get in the way.
So what do you call Nordland and by extension their allies in the Cult of Sigmar? They've got an axe to grind against Laurelorn's entry into imperial politics. Why wouldn't they make a fuss over this?
 
Uh, yes? When you're building new Waystones on sovereign territory of the empire, part of that will need to consider the local beliefs and prejudices when negotiating permission. It might sound ridiculous to us, but for the average citizen it's a relevant concern if the new landmark comes attached with baggage.

Making new Waystones at all will not be meaningfully easier than ones with Hekrati on them , they are already scary elf magic stones, if you tell people they include the scary magic elf god the reaction is more likely to be 'well of course they do'.

So what do you call Nordland and by extension their allies in the Cult of Sigmar? They've got an axe to grind against Laurelorn's entry into imperial politics. Why wouldn't they make a fuss over this?

They will make a fuss over Waystones in general anyway, they are more likely to make a fuss over elven mages in their territory in general. The level of fuss will be the same especially as they can in no way prove we do not need those Hekrati carvings.
 
Last edited:
Honestly dedication is fine. If only few people know it, there might be some rumours but people won't really know and it won't look that weird.
 
Yep, there was old elf stones, then Lady-Magister of Grey Order came, researched, and remade them into perfectly normal, College-sanctioned stones.

And she coincidentally came with a whole posy of elfs and their elf guards (because there is no way the Eonir will let their enchanters out of their sight with only human guards). This is not a tenable lie.
 
[x] Plan how many people can actually read elf anyways?
-[x] [SCOPE] The Empire (+2)
-[x] [REP] Magical Theorist (-2)
-[x] [FORM] Dedication (0)
 
[x] Plan how many people can actually read elf anyways?

The stones that suck up magic and send it away have a sign of a goddess of manipulating winds of magic, what a surprise.
If witch hunters become concerned then they will most likely just ask Mathilde about what is going on.
 
And she coincidentally came with a whole posy of elfs and their elf guards (because there is no way the Eonir will let their enchanters out of their sight with only human guards). This is not a tenable lie.
We are talking about a situation where we are not forced to give building exclusively to Tindomiel. So there well be anyone we want, not just Elves and their guard.

If witch hunters become concerned then they will most likely just ask Mathilde about what is going on.
Will they consider "We are building Waystones and dedicating them to Hekarti" an acceptable answer?
 
I'll be honest, I don't like this deal. I can live with it after Boney's clarifications, but it is still a significant opportunity cost. Our initial stretch goal was making Humans be able to build Waystones, or at least be able to do so in tandem with Dwarves. It would be a major reputation boost to the Empire and the Colleges. We are giving that up for the foreseeable future. We are also alienating most other Cults from participation, because even if they have no problem whatsoever with Hekarti, we are still telling them that the Hekartinites will get something that they won't, for no reason other than that we asked them first and acquiesced at their demand for exclusivity. And lastly there's the political hassle of legalizing Elven enchanters on Empire soil.

But the alternatives is only getting the mystery box heir who will know that we, to some extent snubbed Tindomiel (neither Shrines just in Laurelorn nor Waystones dedicated to not Hekarti are what they actually asked for), or dealing with the hassle of having to tell four Provinces that they have to accept full on Shrines while no one else has to, or speaking for foreign nations without having discussed it in any way with their representatives who we already invited.

And those other options grow more and more appealing to me the more I think about it. Or at least the first two (can't just agree that the Ice Witches don't get to dedicate their Waystones to the Widow without some major souring of relations).
 
Last edited:
Back
Top