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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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Honestly, the practicalities aside. The fact that we're functionally using mental influence to dictate the strategic posture of this group is not something I'm a huge fan of. Waystones are a big enough win, that I'm okay with doing it do increase the odds of its success. Going beyond that though, for what is basically unrelated stuff is a further step and one that seems to me unnecessary.

The coin put us in a position where they're going out on a limb for us and trusting us to make the call that's best for them. And from what I can see that's minimizing the odds that this comes back on them while leaving them with the most flexibility to pivot however seems best for them to decide in the future. So I really think Secrecy is the way to go.
 
ReImagined said:
If the concern is mostly about Tindomiel setting up Hekarti worship everywhere, then why not go all in on being secular?
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For me, we can't promise Elves things that we don't have control of. At least, we need an agreement with other nations like Brettonia or Karaks, that gives us right to decide who and where will build Waystones.
Raydom said:
Tempted to go the discreet route as having them go the priest route to be potentially accepted into the empire like the damsels or ice witches but doing so when Nordland's loosing half of their territory and the Nordlander's on that side presumed dead is making me hesitate to have the group publicly acknowledged as priests of Haletha considering they can be pressured by the Nordlander EC.
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For current situation it is just Aksel, presented as Halethan priest. This doesn't mean we have to disclose the whole Hedgewise group. Or am I wrong?
 
Kupfer: I am a hedgewise that joined the grey college.
Krammovich: I joined the grey college to double cross them, then changed sides often enough that my position playing both sides got made official
Mathilde: I got a Hedgewise to pretend join the college in good faith, so we can fool the rest of the world together :V
 
Glau said:
The elves basically offered to do most of the heavy lifting in terms of construction in exchange for just putting a maker's mark on it and a large minority of the thread is "how dare you!?!"
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I of course can't argue for others but for me the problem isn't what they want to do with the waystones they want the prestige and status of their house to increase through it which is fine for me. But their offer is sorely lacking in what they are willing to give to the project when they can reap such a huge profit. Giving us an enchanter or something similar is just not enough for me to say that it would be worth it to give concession like they want
 
[X] [HOUSE] Yes

[X] Plan: Local Security
-[x] [SCOPE] Northern Provinces (+1)
-[x] [FORM] Shrines (+1)
-[x] [REP] Magical Theorist (-2)

[X] [HEDGEWISE] Discreetly

Based Elves.
 
picklepikkl said:
Unless I am missing something huge here, I think I have to vote No on House Tindomiel, because of one issue: pacing. We know how slowly the Elder Races take things that they think are important. Giving them the monopoly on Waystone construction anywhere outside their own territory is just asking for a culture clash writ very large, as we go "please hurry" and they go "we are hurrying."
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We could go full shrine and limit them to Laurelorn though. We'd get a solid +1 that way, worst case scenario.

[x] [HOUSE] Yes
[x] Plan Middle Ground
- [x] [SCOPE] The Empire (+2)
- [x] [REP] Heir (-1)
- [x] [FORM] Discreet (-1)
[x] [HEDGEWISE] Discreetly
 
Imagine letting a bunch of suspicious elves put up Waystones inscribed with dedications to some unsanctioned god of magic across the Old World.

Clearly, only our good friend and master enchanter Egrimm van Horstmann deserves this privilege.


[X] [HOUSE] Yes
[X] [HEDGEWISE] Secretly
[X] Plan how many people can actually read elf anyways?
[X] Plan Discretion Is The Watchword

(I will somehow live with the indignity of charging someone else to deal with Imperial Waystone construction.)
 
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[X] [HOUSE] Yes

[x] Plan how many people can actually read elf anyways?
-[x] [SCOPE] The Empire (+2)
-[x] [REP] Magical Theorist (-2)
-[x] [FORM] Dedication (0)

[X] [HEDGEWISE] Discreetly

Man, some people really don't know what the right of first refusal is...or that gifting magic to a god is like putting more bath water into a ocean...like literally if we could make waystones that move their collected winds into the aether themselves it would be an improvement...
 
There seems to be some concern floating around the thread that Hekarti is going to use the shrines to suck up all the magic in the waystones and do... something with it.

From what we've observed in quest, every single Taalite holy place we've visited is built on top of a waystone. If King Taal the Hunter, Lord of the Forest, isn't abusing the waystones through His sites of worship, then I don't see why Hekarti would do the same.

I don't want Hekarti shrines around the Empire because I'm worried humans might start worshipping Her, and that's the sort of thing that rarely ends well, but I'm not seeing anything to fear directly from Hekarti Herself.

I think people are looking too hard for the "gotcha" in this deal. Tindomiel have offered the resources, knowledge and expertise upfront without an immediate payment, and the only thing they want in exchange is the right to construct waystones (should we ever discover how) in a religious design of their choosing. They are essentially working for free, and their reward for this is... more work. If this design ends up being actively hostile towards the project, or the nations of the Old World, then we can confront them on that.

Remember that they are not asking for the right to build shrines where ever they want to without oversight or permission. They are asking to include a shrine with any waystone they are asked to build. A Buy-One-Get-One-Free type of deal. Do we want Hekarti shrines all over the world? Maybe not. But they are still limited in where and when they can build one, and if they lack the resources to do so we can ask another group to make it instead.

In fact, they are not even building the waystones. At least, not all of it. They will be "providing the Wind-based aspects of constructing Waystones". Dwarves can't do that. The Colleges might not be able to, due to their focus on mono-wind magics. That means it has to be an elf, and there's only 12 Grey Lords in existence, and eleven of them are busy on other things. If we're not getting the multi-wind expert from Tindomiel, then where are we getting it from?

So lets not assume they are planing on antagonising every faction they are in contact with. They hold just one council seat out of 20+. They want an alliance with the Empire. They want to be a part of the waystone project, and I believe they are negotiating in good faith here, and honestly, I think we need their connections and resources.
 
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Glau said:
The elves basically offered to do most of the heavy lifting in terms of construction in exchange for just putting a maker's mark on it and a large minority of the thread is "how dare you!?!"
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Firstly, I was making a joke. Secondly, I'll not you didn't read my previous posts. We don't know if it's just a maker's mark. For all we know, the dedicated waystones will directly empower Hekarti. Maybe it's not the case, but we simply don't know, and I'm not willing to take that risk. Let's ask the Ice Witches how divinity interacts with waystones before doing that.

Burned_Cookie said:
They would throw our head to the wolves given that they'd also be duty bound to kill us.
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That's what I was implying 😉

ReImagined said:
[] Plan No Altars, No Problem
- [] [SCOPE] The Old World (+4)
- [] [REP] Magical Theorist (-2)
- [] [FORM] Secular (-2)
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That's better, but now the problem is that the dwarfs would be deprived of the opportunity of making their own Waystones if the House is able to do it. That wouldn't be very good. Or is there a way to mitigate that?
 
I am voting no on the house. I think what they want is potentially alienating to allies, and too risky.

Also, saying no is important in demonstrating to the elves that we can say no. Right now we may be perceived as being to desperate to for support to be able to say "no". If we accept this, other houses may use this as a baseline for their demands for supporting. Demonstrating that we can say no is not just important for negotiating with this house, it is crucial for all negotiations going forward. Saying no now strengthens our position in future negotiations by demonstrating that they must truly negotiate.

At least, that is how I see it. Either way, what they are asking is a bridge to far for me.

[x] [HOUSE] No
[x] Shrines for Heir
- [x] [SCOPE] Laurelorn (0)
- [x] [REP] Heir (-1)
- [x] [FORM] Shrines (+1)
[x] [HEDGEWISE] Secretly
 
[X] [HEDGEWISE] Discreetly
[X] [HEDGEWISE] Secretly
[X] Plan: Just the Heir
[x] Plan how many people can actually read elf anyways?

mathymancer said:
...does the Grey College even know? It was news to us, after all. Is Kupfer a double agent that wasn't caught?
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Who knows??? I assume Kupfer has been seen casting Ulgu and likely has marks so culturally Hedgewise but not magically maybe? Maybe he has his own weird thing that let's him do both? This is fascinating.
 
Thomasfoolery said:
In the very post you quote I pretty clearly do not argue that. I say it will increase their potential exposure, which I feel is pretty clearcut that it will.

The argument that Discreet and Secret are equally at risk of exposure though is not one I agree with at all. There is much less notice in regards to a grey perpetual, when it is the Grey College heading things up, and whose access to other participants could be controlled if necessary, as opposed to a full fledged separate political entity joining up.
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Apologies. I think I must have misunderstood your position based on your previous comment that the current leading vote (discrete) was going to change the position of the Hedgewise by changing them from going out of their way to be unobtrusive when (in my understanding) it isn't doing that, only having a member of the Hedgewise pose as a priest of the goddess he follows. The remaining Hedgewise would still be trying to be unobtrusive, I think, with the initial increased exposure falling on the Cult of Haletha, not on the Hedgewise. It certainly increases the risk of exposure and persecution, but I don't think it does by that much.

Personally, I would say that you are probably right that priest has a higher risk of exposure of the Hedgewise as a whole, though I think Grey has a higher risk of exposure of Aksel as an individual. I don't think we can have him contribute as fully as needed while limiting his exposure to the other wizards.
 
K von Carstein said:
Firstly, I was making a joke. Secondly, I'll not you didn't read my previous posts. We don't know if it's just a maker's mark. For all we know, the dedicated waystones will directly empower Hekarti. Maybe it's not the case, but we simply don't know, and I'm not willing to take that risk. Let's ask the Ice Witches how divinity interacts with waystones before doing that.
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We can't just say "We don't know what effect it'll have, therefore it might have a bad effect and we should avoid it". What if waystones dedicated to a patron deity are stronger, and better at draining latent dhar from the land? Is that not worth trying? After all, we don't know it doesn't do that. There's no evidence for or against a patron having an effect upon waystones, so to leap to "we have no evidence it's good, therefore it must be bad" is just... illogical.
 
Nerdasaurus Rex said:
There seems to be some concern floating around the thread that Hekarti is going to use the shrines to suck up all the magic in the waystones and do... something with it.
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I think Elves are honest. They want exactly what they say, without something shady.
But I think it's too early for such commitment. We don't know anything about connection between Gods and Waystones (if there is any). We can't promise Elves anything outside the Empire either. So in my opinion, we take an Heir, begin cooperating with them, and if need arises, renegotiate agreement for more involvement. If we fully commit now, it will be much harder to say "Sorry, we changed our mind" later, in case we learn something that changes things.

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Nerdasaurus Rex said:
There's no evidence for or against a patron having an effect upon waystones
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Therefore it is better to find about such effect before any commitments that concern Gods.
 
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IronFist said:
He mentioned Haletha during Mathilde's promotion.
If he was hiding it, he wouldn't have brought it up in front of his peers
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That's not really much evidence. Starke mentioned Morr, but no one thought it implies that he's secretly a Morrite.
A_Somebody said:
Who knows??? I assume Kupfer has been seen casting Ulgu and likely has marks so culturally Hedgewise but not magically maybe? Maybe he has his own weird thing that let's him do both? This is fascinating.
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Casting Ulgu despite being originally trained as a Blessed One is apparently possible - we know Kurtis did just that.
 
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Nerdasaurus Rex said:
We can't just say "We don't know what effect it'll have, therefore it might have a bad effect and we should avoid it". What if waystones dedicated to a patron deity are stronger, and better at draining latent dhar from the land? Is that not worth trying? After all, we don't know it doesn't do that. There's no evidence for or against a patron having an effect upon waystones, so to leap to "we have no evidence it's good, therefore it must be bad" is just... illogical.
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Hence why I'm all for asking the Ice Witches about it, or at least learning more about waystones. We don't need that House to lay the foundations, the Grey Lord is enough for their side of the story. Later I would be all for if it happens that dedicating the stones doesn't change anything or make them better.
 
K von Carstein said:
Hence why I'm all for asking the Ice Witches about it, or at least learning more about waystones. We don't need that House to lay the foundations, the Grey Lord is enough for their side of the story. Later I would be all for if it happens that dedicating the stones doesn't change anything or make them better.
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How about we ask Councillor Isthien? He's right there in front of us after all.

"Will these dedications of yours affect the function and purpose of the waystones?"

If he says yes, we can reevaluate our decision. If he says no and he's lying to us, we can kick him out of the waystone project. If he says no and he's being honest, then by all means draw whatever symbols on it you want.

Also, I'm not sure Hatalath is "enough". He's spent centuries living in an isolated liminal realm, and he's the most worldly of them all. The Tindomiel worship a goddess of the World-That-Is, which is also where the waystones are. I suspect they have access to insights and resources Hatalath doesn't have.
 
Nerdasaurus Rex said:
From what we've observed in quest, every single Taalite holy place we've visited is built on top of a waystone. If King Taal the Hunter, Lord of the Forest, isn't abusing the waystones through His sites of worship
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Cult of Taal knows jack and shit about waystones and how they work. Nor did they build them in the first place. So of course no abuse is happening.

So this argument is on the wrong foundation to be answer to what will happen when Elves build their wayshrines.
 
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