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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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Boney said:
Yes, I missed it. I am full of wine and chocolate and phone posting at ten at night when I have to hold the phone up in just the right spot to get a signal. If you find the quality of my answers lacking, feel free to enjoy the alternative that is a complete lack of answers until I get back home.
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Sorry if that came across as confrontational, I tried to rephrase it a few times to avoid that and in hindsight I should have gone with my initial thought and simply added a disclaimer given the notorious difficulty of conveying tone through text.
 
Okay, I'm going to try and make this post as helpful as possible for letting people figure out what they want to vote for.

Questions immediately relevant to the Foundations action this turn:

- How much do you think the Gambler helps the Foundations?
- How vital do you think it is for the Foundations action to have high rolls?
- How much do you think the Foundations action is helped by having the Hedgewise on board for it?
- How likely do you think it is we can recruit the Hedgewise this turn if we try to do so?

Questions relevant for the impact our choice now will have on the future of the Project:

- How likely do you think it is that if we recruit the Hedgewise later, we'll have to redo the Foundations because they have something incompatible with our current model?
- What sort of impact do you think having the Hedgewise on board for the Foundations will have on the internal politics of the Project?
- What sort of impact do you think having the Hedgewise on board for the Foundations will have on external attitudes towards the Waystone Project?

Depending on your assessment of these questions, you may come out prioritizing either the Father or the Gambler, even if you're only thinking about what will best help the Waystone Project.

If you think the Father option is optimal for the Waystone Project, then the choice is pretty simple: you should probably vote the Father plan unless you really want to study the Nut with Panoramia this turn, or if you actively don't want to see any Father/Hedgewise stuff. (Though if you want to abandon Father/Hedgewise stuff entirely and never do it at all, I think it's too late to find any success there.)

If you think the Gambler option is optimal for the Waystone Project, and that is the only thing you want to prioritize, then you vote for the Gambler.

If you think the Gambler option is optimal for the Project, but you've got more priorities than just the Project, then it gets a bit more complicated, and hopefully these next questions can help.

Questions relevant for other stuff:

First, to what degree do you think the Gambler is more optimal for the Project versus the Father?
- How much do you value that?

How much do you care about the Hedgewise?
- How interested are you in learning about Hedgewise stuff?
- What sort of impact do you think having the Hedgewise on board for the Foundations will have on...
-- Their relationship to us, personally?
-- Their relationship to the Grey College?
-- Their relationship to the Colleges in general?
-- Their relationship to the Empire?
-- Their relationship to other factions invested in the Project?

How much do you care about the Father plot?
- How likely do you think it is Haletha is one of the Daughters?
- How much do you care about seeing the Father coin in action for the first time?

How much do you care about mystery boxes?
- How likely do you think it is we'll get unknown benefits from buddying up to the Hedgewise?
- How likely do you think it is we'll get unknown benefits from Haletha?

Depending on your priorities and answers to these questions, you may come out still wanting to vote Gambler, or you may come out wanting to vote Father in spite of thinking the Gambler more optimal for the Project.

I hope this post is helpful, and I'd appreciate feedback on how it could be more helpful.
 
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I am not in principle against using the father face of the coin, the turn we lay the foundations however I believe 100% of our focus should go towards getting the best result possible here, like Alratan has said this will be the intellectual foundation upon which magical insight is shared between very disparate magical traditions when we know in warhammer that Magical know how is incredibly individual.

It is therefore critical that we're building on solid concrete rather than loose sand or swamp, to continue the metaphor.

Next turn I would be willing to use the father face of the coin to try and recruit a couple of different groups we think might be relevant to that face of the coin but doing it now is just wasteful (only one group being recruited, and doesn't strengthen our odds with the foundation)

What we're attempting to do here is basically unprecedented, Having the god of luck put his hand on the scales to ensure we get off to a good start feels like a no brainer.
 
[x] Plan Disregard WEBMAT, Acquire AP (Fatherless)
- [x] One Overwork Action
- [x] WEB-MAT: Hire someone as a full-time Gyrocopter pilot (Adela)
- [x] Lay the foundations: work with the current members of WEB-MAT and the Waystone Project to build a single unified framework for understanding the Waystones.
-- [x] COIN: The Gambler
- [x] Attempt to bring a Major House or Ward into the Waystone Project (Tindomiel)
- [x] Branulhune's ability to disappear and reappear at a thought allows entirely new forms of combat. Continue to work on them.
- [x] Study an artefact: Ghyran Nut
-- [x] With Panoramia
- [x] Investigate how the Vitae reacts to a power stone.
- [x] EIC: Have the Hochlander set up a shadow headquarters for the EIC in the Sunken Palace.
- [x] KAU: Decide who your library staff will consist of, and go about recruiting them.
- [x] SERENITY: Write a book: Windsoak Mushrooms (1/2)
 
I have actually been convinced for the Fatherful plan. My original motivation was to optimize father use by visting Bretonnia and the Hedgewise in the same turn, later. But I think Pickle is right that Bretonnian involvement is quite a bit off, and the Hedgewise are useful now (and also, I'm very interested in the Father plotline)

[X] Plan Disregard WEBMAT, Acquire AP
 
[X] Plan Disregard WEBMAT, Acquire AP (Fatherless)

I made my decision, and finding Ranald's family is not something I want to pursue
 
Boney said:
The Waystone Project, Research
[ ] Lay the foundations: work with the current members of WEB-MAT and the Waystone Project to build a single unified framework for understanding the Waystones.
In theory, the more members there currently are, the more complete this framework will be. Will unlock further investigations. Can be repeated if desired, but will not unlock anything new after the first time, it will just make a new framework incorporating any new recruits.
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I think there's been a small confusion over language. The "Lay the foundations" action isn't about creating a foundation to a house, where it can never be changed and every other part of the house depends on how solidly built the foundation is. As the description reads, it's about creating a framework, a single unified structure to share understanding of the Waystones between all the different members. We don't need the most solid foundation possible. Instead, we need the widest net cast possible. The most complete framework, as Mathilde surmises, will be accomplished by having more members to add more pieces to it.

Basically, we need to go wider, not deeper, to get the best results.
 
Derpmind said:
I think there's been a small confusion over language. The "Lay the foundations" action isn't about creating a foundation to a house, where it can never be changed and every other part of the house depends on how solidly built the foundation is. As the description reads, it's about creating a framework, a single unified structure to share understanding of the Waystones between all the different members. We don't need the most solid foundation possible. Instead, we need the widest net cast possible. The most complete framework, as Mathilde surmises, will be accomplished by having more members to add more pieces to it.

Basically, we need to go wider, not deeper, to get the best results.
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I think I largely agree with your priorities, but I do want to mention that if a faction rolls too low on being able to explain their side, then the unified framework we create could very well wind up excluding them.
 
Derpmind said:
I think there's been a small confusion over language. The "Lay the foundations" action isn't about creating a foundation to a house, where it can never be changed and every other part of the house depends on how solidly built the foundation is. As the description reads, it's about creating a framework, a single unified structure to share understanding of the Waystones between all the different members. We don't need the most solid foundation possible. Instead, we need the widest net cast possible. The most complete framework, as Mathilde surmises, will be accomplished by having more members to add more pieces to it.

Basically, we need to go wider, not deeper, to get the best results.
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Imagine you have ten puzzle pieces, and you're trying to figure out what the completed picture on them is supposed to look like. Which helps more: grabbing an eleventh puzzle piece from the box, or managing by luck to fit some of those pieces together?

The individual paradigms are all pieces of the puzzle that is the Waystone Project, and we don't know how they fit together when many of them seem to be mutually contradictory. Establishing the ways they piece together is what building the framework does. One more puzzle piece in grabbing the Hedgewise could be the missing link in establishing consensus, but I'd rather optimize putting together the pieces we already grabbed first, keeping in mind that we can still grab that next puzzle piece soon, given the amount of interest that's been shown in it.
 
ReImagined said:
Imagine you have ten puzzle pieces, and you're trying to figure out what the completed picture on them is supposed to look like. Which helps more: grabbing an eleventh puzzle piece from the box, or managing by luck to fit some of those pieces together?

The individual paradigms are all pieces of the puzzle that is the Waystone Project, and we don't know how they fit together when many of them seem to be mutually contradictory. Establishing the ways they piece together is what building the framework does. One more puzzle piece in grabbing the Hedgewise could be the missing link in establishing consensus, but I'd rather optimize putting together the pieces we already grabbed first, keeping in mind that we can still grab that next puzzle piece soon, given the amount of interest that's been shown in it.
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Of course, the risk is that after we collect the puzzle piece that is the Hedgewise, we'll realize that some of the puzzle pieces we've put together must have been put together wrong because the Hedgewise's puzzle piece doesn't fit with our current model. In which case we may have to redo the Foundations.

But, of course, this can also happen if a faction rolls so badly that they were unable to work their piece into the framework. We don't know how badly they need to roll for that to happen - maybe it's unlikely anyone will roll so badly - but if that happens, we could also wind up having to redo the Foundations.

(this isn't trying to contradict you, by the way, I'm just trying to provide stuff to think about)
 
[X] Plan Disregard WEBMAT, Acquire AP (Fatherless)
-[X] One Overwork Action
-[X] WEB-MAT: Hire someone as a full-time Gyrocopter pilot (Adela)
-[X] Lay the foundations: work with the current members of WEB-MAT and the Waystone Project to build a single unified framework for understanding the Waystones.
--[X] COIN: The Gambler
-[X] Attempt to bring a Major House or Ward into the Waystone Project (Tindomiel)
-[X] Branulhune's ability to disappear and reappear at a thought allows entirely new forms of combat. Continue to work on them.
-[X] Study an artefact: Ghyran Nut
--[X] With Panoramia
-[X] Investigate how the Vitae reacts to a power stone.
-[X] EIC: Have the Hochlander set up a shadow headquarters for the EIC in the Sunken Palace.
-[X] KAU: Decide who your library staff will consist of, and go about recruiting them.
-[X] SERENITY: Write a book: Windsoak Mushrooms (1/2)
 
So I wonder what the Hedgewise would try to get Mathilde to do for them. I think we have had 1 group not request a favor from Mathilde. Even if the coin causes trust , the hedgewise have a lot of enemies among the empire. Really just people who hate magic and call them witch.

I think the Hedgewise will ask either for sanctuary or someplace to hide to regrow their numbers or Mathilde to get the witch hunters off their back. They also may ask for her to deal with a problem.
 
Nurgle said:
So I wonder what the Hedgewise would try to get Mathilde to do for them. I think we have had 1 group not request a favor from Mathilde. Even if the coin causes trust , the hedgewise have a lot of enemies among the empire. Really just people who hate magic and call them witch.

I think the Hedgewise will ask either for sanctuary or someplace to hide to regrow their numbers or Mathilde to get the witch hunters off their back. They also may ask for her to deal with a problem.
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Maybe we can relocated them to Karak Eight Peaks, where they'll be under the protection of Belegar?

Oh! We can have hedgewise librarians! That won't cause any issues at all, especially after we unearth all the dark tomes from Drakenhoff!
 
Nerdasaurus Rex said:
Maybe we can relocated them to Karak Eight Peaks, where they'll be under the protection of Belegar?

Oh! We can have hedgewise librarians! That won't cause any issues at all, especially after we unearth all the dark tomes from Drakenhoff!
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Hedgewise may want to be relocated but than we have the problem of whatever the hedgewise was keeping down, rising up. Hedgewise do the colleges job of keeping magician threats down on the local level. While yes they can be relocated there is still the problem of moving a bunch of witches . Good thing Adela is getting her pilot license.
 
LadyLynn said:
Of course, the risk is that after we collect the puzzle piece that is the Hedgewise, we'll realize that some of the puzzle pieces we've put together must have been put together wrong because the Hedgewise's puzzle piece doesn't fit with our current model. In which case we may have to redo the Foundations.

But, of course, this can also happen if a faction rolls so badly that they were unable to work their piece into the framework. We don't know how badly they need to roll for that to happen - maybe it's unlikely anyone will roll so badly - but if that happens, we could also wind up having to redo the Foundations.

(this isn't trying to contradict you, by the way, I'm just trying to provide stuff to think about)
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It's possible the Hedgewise model if it exists is incompatible, but the chances are extremely low.

Regarding Derpmind's point of needing to go broader to get best results, we've basically gone broad enough to do that 2 magical traditions ago. That was the point when the various inputs were broad and varied enough to create a framework open/resilient enough to be able to accept additions from any plausible future additions. So basically even if someone fails to add their paradigm in an understandable manner this turn, we still have enough depth in the pen that assuming they're able to reformulate it into something understandable in a future turn it wouldn't require a redo of the foundations.
 
Nurgle said:
Hedgewise may want to be relocated but than we have the problem of whatever the hedgewise was keeping down, rising up. Hedgewise do the colleges job of keeping magician threats down on the local level. While yes they can be relocated there is still the problem of moving a bunch of witches . Good thing Adela is getting her pilot license.
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That's true—something will fill the vacuum they will leave behind, and it'll probably be goblins, if not something worse.
 
[X] Plan Disregard WEBMAT, Acquire AP (Fatherless)

I do want to do the Father actions, but I feel that gambler is an ironically safer bet for laying the foundations to go well and I feel that is very important for the future of the project.
 
LadyLynn said:
I think I largely agree with your priorities, but I do want to mention that if a faction rolls too low on being able to explain their side, then the unified framework we create could very well wind up excluding them.
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I still think it's a huge assumption people are making that any dice rolls will occur at all. Plenty of actions we take are entirely decided by narrative, not dice.
 
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