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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
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[X] Plan Disregard WEBMAT, Acquire AP
-[X] One Overwork Action
-[X] COIN: The Father
-[X] WEB-MAT: Hire someone as a full-time Gyrocopter pilot (Adela)
-[X] Lay the foundations: work with the current members of WEB-MAT and the Waystone Project to build a single unified framework for understanding the Waystones.
-[X] Attempt to bring a non-Order magical tradition into the Waystone Project (Nordlander Haléthan Hedgewise)
-[X] Attempt to bring a Major House or Ward into the Waystone Project (Tindomiel)
-[X] Branulhune's ability to disappear and reappear at a thought allows entirely new forms of combat. Continue to work on them.
-[X] Investigate how the Vitae reacts to a power stone.
-[X] EIC: Have the Hochlander set up a shadow headquarters for the EIC in the Sunken Palace.
-[X] KAU: Decide who your library staff will consist of, and go about recruiting them.
-[X] SERENITY: Write a book: Windsoak Mushrooms (1/2)

I don't think i have ever voted for a turn plan so closely aligned with my desires.
Only possible improvement would be numismatics book, but as long as way stay away from fiction, i'm good.
 
Dragonofelder said:
I am very, very close to creating a full argument why the next major project should be a Moon Programme.

Why? Fun.
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Please don't. This reads as an announcement of an intent to troll the thread for your own amusement, and I'm not here for it.

Briefvoice said:
(checks tally) It seems like I have very different ideas about what actions would be interesting than everybody else. I don't want to disregard WEBMAT, but everybody seems to be playing into a variation on something like that. I don't want to do the Father and I don't want to do the Hedgewise, and those things aren't even connected, I just don't want to do either one. I want to set up the shadow HQ in the fief, not the Sunken Palace, but even though I made my arguments and at least some people got on board, no plans other than my own (which is getting no votes) are doing that.

I'm just out of tune with the other posters, I guess.
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Write some omake? It seems to be head and shoulders above other methods of persuasion here; take the bits you are excited about and package them up for others to get excited about.
 
Briefvoice said:
(checks tally) It seems like I have very different ideas about what actions would be interesting than everybody else. I don't want to disregard WEBMAT, but everybody seems to be playing into a variation on something like that. I don't want to do the Father and I don't want to do the Hedgewise, and those things aren't even connected, I just don't want to do either one. I want to set up the shadow HQ in the fief, not the Sunken Palace, but even though I made my arguments and at least some people got on board, no plans other than my own (which is getting no votes) are doing that.

I'm just out of tune with the other posters, I guess.
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Plan No Recruitment fully uses WEBMAT and doesn't do the father or Hedgewise. It doesn't do either of the HQ actions which I guess could be a positive or negative to you.

Other differences to your plan is it doesn't do any recruitment and has a different library action than you want, but at 12 votes while it's not particularly close to winning, it does seem at the moment to be the only at all competitive different "Philosophy" from the mainstream that has any traction this voting cycle.

I'm honestly really surprised that not making full use of WEBMAT is so popular. The recruiting I can at least understand since it's been obvious for a while most of the thread is way more enthusiastic/sees more value in it than I am, but forgoing an additional AP when it could be added in pretty easily I really didn't expect to get so much traction.
 
Thomasfoolery said:
So were most people aware that we wouldn't have to redo the foundations for new recruits, and still wanted to pay a likely surcharge to get them in beforehand, or was Derpmind's misunderstanding widespread?
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Boney said:
In theory, the more members there currently are, the more complete this framework will be. Will unlock further investigations. Can be repeated if desired, but will not unlock anything new after the first time, it will just make a new framework incorporating any new recruits.
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The line here from right under the action sure seems to imply we'd have to redo the action if we wanted a broader framework. Though the bit about it not unlocking anything makes me curious why we'd bother. So, if we want whatever bonus we get from the various factions involved, seems like we need to get them in on the ground floor.

[X] Plan Disregard WEBMAT, Acquire AP
 
Thomasfoolery said:
I'm honestly really surprised that not making full use of WEBMAT is so popular. The recruiting I can at least understand since it's been obvious for a while most of the thread is way more enthusiastic/sees more value in it than I am, but forgoing an additional AP when it could be added in pretty easily I really didn't expect to get so much traction.
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The issue is that there isn't a lot WEBMAT can do right now that we really want. If you look at most of the stuff the thread gets agitated about -- stuff like AV, Branarhune, codifying spells, doing research with Panoramia, taming our Arcane Marks -- it's all stuff Mathilde can only do with personal actions. The fact that we can get two WEBMAT AP by forgoing one Mathilde AP, while appealing, still loses if two WEBMAT actions are less appealing than one Mathilde action, which they are to me and apparently to a bunch of other voters. Efficiency for efficiency's sake is something that makes my brain happy, but not as much as continuing to push ahead on our long action chains does.

Once the Waystone Project kicks off properly, now that we're Laying the Foundations, we should be able to make use of WEBMAT for Waystone Project stuff, and those actions will rise a lot in value. I'd be unsurprised if on T39, instead of turning two Mathilde AP into three WEBMAT AP, we turned four into six.
Wiggy said:
The line here from right under the action sure seems to imply we'd have to redo the action if we wanted a broader framework. Though the bit about it not unlocking anything makes me curious why we'd bother. So, if we want whatever bonus we get from the various factions involved, seems like we need to get them in on the ground floor.
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We'd need to redo the action if we wanted to incorporate new recruits into our theoretical framework, i.e. if they brought some sort of insight incompatible what what we already thought we knew and so we need to seriously fix it to account for what they bring to the team, but not just to have them on the team. People can be useful on this project without bringing paradigm-changing insights just because of bringing magical skills or other resources.
 
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Thomasfoolery said:
Plan No Recruitment fully uses WEBMAT and doesn't do the father or Hedgewise. It doesn't do either of the HQ actions which I guess could be a positive or negative to you.

Other differences to your plan is it doesn't do any recruitment and has a different library action than you want, but at 12 votes while it's not particularly close to winning, it does seem at the moment to be the only at all competitive different "Philosophy" from the mainstream that has any traction this voting cycle.
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Eh, all right, I'll give that an approval vote I guess,
 
LightLan said:
We can do both windherding and apparation hunting as WEBMAT actions.
Both do have at least some supporters.

in fact we could try dropping one action from the currently winning plan and do both.

Which action is least wanted?
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Simple, don't do this one "Attempt to bring a non-Order magical tradition into the Waystone Project (Nordlander Haléthan Hedgewise)" and don't replace it with the Panoramia Nut Study one.
 
picklepikkl said:
The issue is that there isn't a lot WEBMAT can do right now that we really want. If you look at most of the stuff the thread gets agitated about -- stuff like AV, Branarhune, codifying spells, doing research with Panoramia, taming our Arcane Marks -- it's all stuff Mathilde can only do with personal actions. The fact that we can get two WEBMAT AP by forgoing one Mathilde AP, while appealing, still loses if two WEBMAT actions are less appealing than one Mathilde action, which they are to me and apparently to a bunch of other voters. Efficiency for efficiency's sake is something that makes my brain happy, but not as much as continuing to push ahead on our long action chains does.
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We could do AV enchanting with Egrimm though? It's not AV powerstone interactions sure, but is it so much worse it's worth sacrificing a free AP? Or we could learn to make powerstones with Max, opening the way to AV powerstone creation, etc. I mean you're clearly right based on the votes people do agree that it's worth losing an AP for the chance to to do Powerstone interactions this turn. I'm just very surprised it thinks that.

Wiggy said:
The line here from right under the action sure seems to imply we'd have to redo the action if we wanted a broader framework. Though the bit about it not unlocking anything makes me curious why we'd bother. So, if we want whatever bonus we get from the various factions involved, seems like we need to get them in on the ground floor.
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Boney said:
You'd only need to relay the foundations if the new recruit comes in with something fundamentally impossible to reconcile with the foundation that you had previously built.
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Basically we have a broad enough base to draw from that the framework can expand automatically unless something really crazy happens. The example Boney gave previously was someone introducing us to a sapient waystone named frank as an example.
 
[X] Plan Disregard WEBMAT, Acquire AP

Despite what I said, this does seem like a good plan, so it's got my vote.

Also; how long does voting last?
 
picklepikkl said:
Be advised that this vote is causing issues with the tally for two separate reasons:
  1. You have the - at front, meaning the tally is grouping it as a subsection of Plan Who's Your Father rather than counting it as a vote in its own right
  2. The name of mathymancer's plan is [] Father and Foundations Deluxe, not Plan Father and Foundations Deluxe, so you'd need to change the name anyway.
(Incidentally, for the record: it is not just out of respect for custom that plan votes start with the word Plan. If you look at the tally, you'll notice that it is separately tallying votes for Father and Foundations Deluxe and votes that copy-paste the entire block of subvotes, as opposed to other plans where a vote for the plan name and a vote for the fully copy-pasted plan are automatically counted together. This is because the tally looks for the magic word Plan in order to trigger that behavior. It's probably too late for mathymancer and the other people who made plans that don't start with Plan to fiddle with their naming without confusing matters further, but it's useful info for anyone else who wants to make one.)
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Much appreciated.
 
Boney said:
I might be misreading the tone here, but this comes across as very condescending. Was that the intention?
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Ah no, sorry! It just kinda funny seeing people getting worked up over things, which is mean I guess.

Boney said:
Can you explain exactly what you mean by this?
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Glau said:
Please don't. This reads as an announcement of an intent to troll the thread for your own amusement, and I'm not here for it.
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People are writing such well thought out arguments, I makes me want to write one of my own. But I A) can't follow everything that is going on in the thread/quest and B) am a silly goblin, so I thought submitting a jokey project pitch would be funny. If others wouldn't I won't.

Edit: Also I want to add; I think my reaction to what I see as a lot of negativity is to throw a joke. But I also have a tendency to put my foot in my mouth, so.
 
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[X] Plan: No Recruitment
[X] Plan Disregard WEBMAT, Acquire AP (Fatherless)
I'm not convinced that inviting even more cooks into the proverbial kitchen would be beneficial at this point. We have a broad enough base that we should be able to at least pin down what kind of knowledge we are missing when first laying the foundations and can invite further people as needed.
 
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Dragonofelder said:
Ah no, sorry! It just kinda funny seeing people getting worked up over things, which is mean I guess.
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If you look at this quest as a collaborative story that the people in this thread have been collectively working on for years, it might become clearer why people are so invested in the decisions being made.

Dragonofelder said:
People are writing such well thought out arguments, I makes me want to write one of my own. But I A) can't follow everything that is going on in the thread/quest and B) am a silly goblin, so I thought submitting a jokey project pitch would be funny. If others wouldn't I wont.
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I think it would be very easy for something like that to come across as mocking.
 
[X] Plan: WEBMAT Alternative Option
-[X] One Overwork
-[X] COIN: The Father
-[X] WEB-MAT: Hire someone as a full-time Gyrocopter pilot (Adela)
-[X] MAX: Learning: Power Stone creation from the colleges.
-[X] EGRIMM: Attempt a Windherder enchantment with Egrimm (Ring of Sudden Dawn, Take No Heed/Radiant Gaze)
-[X] Lay the foundations: work with the current members of WEB-MAT and the Waystone Project to build a single unified framework for understanding the Waystones.
-[X] Attempt to bring a non-Order magical tradition into the Waystone Project (Nordlander Haléthan Hedgewise)
-[X] Attempt to bring a Major House or Ward into the Waystone Project (Tindomiel)
-[X] Branulhune's ability to disappear and reappear at a thought allows entirely new forms of combat. Continue to work on them.
-[X] EIC: Have the Hochlander set up a shadow headquarters for the EIC in the Sunken Palace.
-[X] The many legends about the amount of books contained within and under Castle Drakenhof still haunt you. Organize an expedition to mine the ruins for books. (NEW)
-[X] SERENITY: Write a book: Windsoak Mushrooms (1/2)
 
I get that @picklepikkl wants to focus on personal actions this turn.

But repalcing the action : [] Investigate how the Vitae reacts to a power stone.
By : [] EGRIMM: Experiment with integrating the Vitae into enchantments.
In either of his plans allows us to get an aditional WEB-MAT action like any of those :
[] WEB-MAT: Hunt an apparition with a member of WEB-MAT (Red Rider / Handmaidens).
[] MAX/JOHANN: Study an artefact : Kurgan enchanted weapons / Books and rubbings from an Asur explorer of Lustria and the Southlands / Vampire skulls / Branulhune - investigate the odd flash when it is desummoned underwater

I dont think many people care that much more about how AV reacts to power stones compared to how it reacts to enchanting that we should give up an action to start there.

Wanting to focus on personal actions is completely valid but the leading plans uses it as an excuse, there is no reason to give up a bonus research action to investgate how the AV reacts to power stones.
 
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flogoyog said:
I dont think many people care that much more about how AV reacts to power stones compared to how it reacts to enchanting that we should give up two actions to start there.

Wanting to focus on personal actions is completely valid but the leading plans uses it as an excuse, there is no reason to give up a bonus research action to investgate how the AV reacts to power stones.
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Personally, I much prefer the AV Powerstones action to the AV Enchantments action.
 
flogoyog said:
I get that @picklepikkl wants to focus on personal actions this turn.

But repalcing the action : [] Investigate how the Vitae reacts to a power stone.
By : [] EGRIMM: Experiment with integrating the Vitae into enchantments.
In either of his plans allows us to get an aditional WEB-MAT action like any of those :
[] WEB-MAT: Hunt an apparition with a member of WEB-MAT (Red Rider / Handmaidens).
[] MAX/JOHANN: Study an artefact : Kurgan enchanted weapons / Books and rubbings from an Asur explorer of Lustria and the Southlands / Vampire skulls / Branulhune - investigate the odd flash when it is desummoned underwater

I dont think many people care that much more about how AV reacts to power stones compared to how it reacts to enchanting that we should give up an action to start there.

Wanting to focus on personal actions is completely valid but the leading plans uses it as an excuse, there is no reason to give up a bonus research action to investgate how the AV reacts to power stones.
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I have been very adamant about doing more AV research because every chain of it has lead to something valuable.
 
Dragonofelder said:
Ah no, sorry! It just kinda funny seeing people getting worked up over things, which is mean I guess.
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As one getting way too worked up over this, it feels a bit as if I just slipped on a banana peel and faceplanted into concrete. On the one hand I get why you're laughing, because it's silly and I'm a bit of an idiot. On the other hand my face hurts, so I'm not exactly laughing. No offense taken, but I could easily see how I might have found something like this hurtful if I was feeling worse about the state of the vote.

In other news, I apparently screwed up the tally by not putting 'plan' at the start of the plan. Live and learn, I guess. I'm going to be voting for the names of the plans sans the block of text and just hope that Boney can make sense of the tally in the incredibly unlikely event that it wins. Now I'll drop some new approval votes and then go back to trying to stay away from the thread (with very mixed success) because watching the tally is bad for my blood pressure.

[X] Father and Foundations
-[X] WEB-MAT: Hire someone as a full-time Gyrocopter pilot (Adela Burgstaller)
-[X] MAX: Receive dictation: Windsoak mushrooms book
-[X] EGRIMM: Study an artefact: Kurgan enchanted weapons
-[X] Attempt to bring a non-Order magical tradition into the Waystone Project (Nordlander Hedgewise)
-[X] Attempt to bring a Major House or Ward into the Waystone Project (House Tindomiel)
-[X] Lay the foundations
-[X] Branulhune's ability to disappear and reappear at a thought allows entirely new forms of combat. Continue to work on them.
-[X] EIC: Have the Hochlander set up a shadow headquarters for the EIC in the Sunken Palace
-[X] KAU: Decide who your library staff will consist of, and go about recruiting them.
-[X] SERENITY: Write a paper: Observations on the Windfall north of the Dark Lands
-[X] COIN: The Father

[X] Father and Foundations Deluxe
-[X] WEB-MAT: Hire someone as a full-time Gyrocopter pilot (Adela Burgstaller)
-[X] Attempt to bring a non-Order magical tradition into the Waystone Project (Nordlander Hedgewise)
-[X] Attempt to bring a non-Order magical tradition into the Waystone Project (Bretonnian Damsels)
-[X] Attempt to bring a Major House or Ward into the Waystone Project (House Tindomiel)
-[X] Lay the foundations
-[X] Branulhune's ability to disappear and reappear at a thought allows entirely new forms of combat. Continue to work on them.
-[X] EIC: Have the Hochlander set up a shadow headquarters for the EIC in the Sunken Palace
-[X] KAU: Decide who your library staff will consist of, and go about recruiting them.
-[X] SERENITY: Windsoak Mushroom Book 1/2
-[X] COIN: The Father

[X] Plan Disregard WEBMAT, Acquire AP
[X] Plan Disregard WEBMAT with Book Mine
[X] Plan Disregard WEBMAT, Acquire AP, AV Enchantment
[X] Plan Disregard WEBMAT, Acquire AP (Eonir trade)

[X] Plan Who's Your Father
[X] Laying Foundations with Recruitment
[X] Plan Disregard WEBMAT, Ninja Village
[X] Plan Regard WEBMAT, AV Enchantment, No HQ
[X] Plan Regard WEBMAT, AV Enchantment, Ninja Village
[X] Plan: WEBMAT Alternative Option
[X] Plan: No Branarhune
 
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[x] Plan: No Recruitment
- [x] One Overwork
- [x] WEB-MAT: Hire someone as a full-time Gyrocopter pilot (Adela)
- [x] WEB-MAT: Hunt an apparition with a member of WEB-MAT (Johann, Red Rider)
- [x] EGRIMM: Attempt a Windherder enchantment with Egrimm (Ring of Sudden Dawn, Take No Heed/Radiant Gaze)
- [x] Lay the foundations: work with the current members of WEB-MAT and the Waystone Project to build a single unified framework for understanding the Waystones.
- [x] Branulhune's ability to disappear and reappear at a thought allows entirely new forms of combat. Continue to work on them.
- [x] Investigate how the Vitae reacts to a power stone.
- [x] Attempt to codify Rite of Way so that others can learn it.
- [x] EIC: Investigate what trade goods the Eonir might be willing to import from the Empire.
- [x] The many legends about the amount of books contained within and under Castle Drakenhof still haunt you. Organize an expedition to mine the ruins for books
- [x] Serenity: Windsoak Mushrooms Book
 
flogoyog said:
I dont think many people care that much more about how AV reacts to power stones compared to how it reacts to enchanting that we should give up two actions to start there.

Wanting to focus on personal actions is completely valid but the leading plans uses it as an excuse, there is no reason to give up a bonus research action to investgate how the AV reacts to power stones.
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Using AV in enchanting is a player-originated research idea, which I tend to be skeptical about for meta reasons. Furthermore, we know that exposing AV to magic causes it to decompose into winds, and so I don't have high hopes for AV as an enchanting reagent. The best idea I have for it, based on what we know about Warhammer metaphysics, is that maybe it will be useful for Windherding in some way, because it contains multiple Winds at once in potentia.

On the flip side, AV is extremely energy dense, powerstones are extremely energy dense, and Boney has used the language of nuclear chain reactions to describe possible interactions between the two. That doesn't guarantee anything, obviously, but I feel like if there are applications of our snake juice valuable to the Colleges, they have great odds of being here, and so I do think this is the most valuable personal research action we have available to us. Taking the opportunity to do it before Waystone work eats all our personal actions is worth a little inefficiency.
 
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